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scatterplot1 
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 16 2010
Location: usa
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Points: 52
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 Posted: July 29 2010 at 23:28 |
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Drama, thats what the reprise was about. My first Genesis album I bought in 1976 was TOTT. In '80 it took some time to get used to Duke. By the time they came to Houston in '80 and I saw them, I loved the album. Although technically it was not recorded that well. Passable. I think it was recorded on an 8 track.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 30347
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Posted: July 30 2010 at 01:02 |
 berger_king wrote:
The one thing about Duke that always irked me was the 'reprise' at the end... to me it just seems like 'oh, we're running out of ideas, let's just play this stuff again but we'll throw it all together'. I guess it serves a thematic purpose and that would have been strengthened if the Duke 'suite' remained intact as planned on the album. |
ELP used a similar idea some 9 years earlier with Tarkus reprising the opening theme at the end on Aquatarkus. I quite like this.
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: July 30 2010 at 01:25 |
 An inferior album, to me. Derivitive, formulaic, watered-down Genesis-by-numbers.
(Though I actually quite like Misunderstanding & Turn It On again as well-crafted, catchy pop songs -- heck, I also liked Follow You Follw Me.)
I had it on vinyl when it came out -- have never replaced it on CD. It always gets a lot of praise here, though -- maybe I should give it another go. (But I don't expect much magic.)
Edited by Peter - July 30 2010 at 01:32
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Harry Hood
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1305
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Posted: July 30 2010 at 02:19 |
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it was when the band really came into their own. Commercially and artistically.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 30 2010 at 09:05 |
Peter wrote:
An inferior album, to me. Derivitive, formulaic, watered-down Genesis-by-numbers.
(Though I actually quite like Misunderstanding & Turn It On again as well-crafted, catchy pop songs -- heck, I also liked Follow You Follw Me.)
I had it on vinyl when it came out -- have never replaced it on CD. It always gets a lot of praise here, though -- maybe I should give it another go. (But I don't expect much magic.) |
I'll say it again, if you go CD go for the one with the bonus DVD. I'd like to add that while I really disliked Misunderstanding, Turn It On appealed to me a lot as well as Follow You Follow Me.
Edited by Slartibartfast - July 30 2010 at 14:54
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
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Posted: July 30 2010 at 11:34 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
I don't know if this helps:
All songs by Ray, Derek and Kerry
except "Friends" written by John
and "Take Me" lyrics co-written by John and Derek
Published by Alucard Pub. Ltd./Chrysalis Music Ltd.
A Gentle Giant Production
Engineered by Paul Northfield at Ramport Studios, Battersea
- assisted by Neil.
Maison Rouge, Fulham.
Scorpio Sound Studios, Euston
- assisted by Steve.
Remix at Scorpio Sound Studios.
Recorded April/May, 1978.
Copyright Alucard/Friday Music.
Cover concept: Ray, Tanner, Eve and Pils Lager
Front cover illustration: Peter Owen
Back cover photography: Gered Mankowitz
Equipment: Michael Ambrose
Acoustic guitars courtesy of Norman Guitars, Quebec, Canada.
Note: "Ray, Tanner, Eve, and Pils Lager" means Ray Shulman, his wife Barbara (nicknamed Tanner), someone unknown named Eve, and beer. That's Ray Shulman, his wife Barbara (nickname Tanner), someone unknown named Eve, and beer.
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Thank you for your efforts. I appreciate that. I was just on the phone with a proggie and he told me the guy's name was Lee Abrams, An executive radio consulant ....like radio programming but on a nation wide scale.He persuaded Gentle Giant to sound more commerically viable. He was part of the radio scene in the late 70's when radio went from playing obscure tracks from a prog band on an FM station to playing hits. He was a contributor to the destruction of free form underground rock radio and was hated if, not still hated by proggers in America.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 30 2010 at 14:53 |
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No effort there, just a copy and paste. I know not of Lee Abrams, so not able to hate or dislike, whatever his role was. So many prog artists tried to make a success at doing commercial appealing stuff, which was a damn shame as there was a certain degree of success attainable making non-commercial music with integrity.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: July 30 2010 at 15:18 |
)
Slartibartfast wrote:
Peter wrote:
An inferior album, to me. Derivitive, formulaic, watered-down Genesis-by-numbers.
(Though I actually quite like Misunderstanding & Turn It On again as well-crafted, catchy pop songs -- heck, I also liked Follow You Follw Me.)
I had it on vinyl when it came out -- have never replaced it on CD. It always gets a lot of praise here, though -- maybe I should give it another go. (But I don't expect much magic.) |
I'll say it again, if you go CD go for the one with the bonus DVD. I'd like to add that while I really disliked Misunderstanding, Turn It On appealed to me a lot as well as Follow You Follow Me.
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I have to agree Brian (or is it Bryan I keep forgetting  ) Duke grew on me. I didn't like it at first but I could tell much more cohesive of an album than TTWT but it grew on me. Simpler yes as were everything in the 80's but still enough of the old style to hold my attention. Heathhaze by Banks is stunning and will remind people of other classics Banks wrote like One for the Vine although not quite the epic in length but certainly in the melody.
What got to me was the performance live when they played almost all of the Duke suite to start the show (Except the last 2 numbers which came later). I also was able to see it at the 400 seat Roxy club in Hollywood as well as the 15,000 seat Long Beach Arena so I had full contrast. The bonus disk has a part of the concert in video from that tour. This was the last good Genesis.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Points: 29630
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Posted: July 30 2010 at 15:26 |
OK you totally misspelled it. It's spelled Slarti. Cohesiveness doesn't particularly matter for me. I've read a lot of opinions critical of it, but I liked the album with the exception of Misunderstanding which was definitely some kind of mistake unless you consider the path the band went on in subsequent albums.
Edited by Slartibartfast - July 30 2010 at 15:27
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: July 30 2010 at 15:37 |
TODDLER wrote:
berger_king wrote:
I'm sure this may have been discussed to death before but I am new here and curious... how many of you as a whole would view 'Duke' as a turning point in Genesis' career? Most opinions I've seen seem to label this as the album before things start to really 'fall apart' prog-wise and they become a lot more pop-oriented. I do enjoy aspects of later albums but 'Duke' was my first major exposure to the band. I'd heard stuff from all eras before but this was the one that really drew me in.
I consider 'Duke' to be not so much a turning point as maybe one last stab at their old glory. It did usher in the pop-era but it was not overwhelming so. In fact I think it features some of the best playing in the band's career, particularly from Collins on the opener and Mike Rutherford on both bass and guitar throughout. Personally I think both the albums that came before this were no where near as good, on any level, and that you can't really say things declined after this, they had already started declining as soon as Hackett exited. I see the career as peaks and valleys and not one clear jumping off point for the loss of the 'old sound'. But for my money 'Duke' is the last stab at the band attempting to go full-tilt in delivering everything that made them so good, commercial or not. I don't think they were ever as progressive again, and likewise for my money they never wrote a better pop song than 'Misunderstanding' either. It's an interesting dichotomy. |
With repect I must add that during the time of it's release or even on Then we were Three, musicians everywhere were disappointed in the musical direction that Genesis were going. During that time period most musicians who were offended by DUKE had already been touring and performing Genesis material. Such as bands do today with their tribute concepts. It was the generation of kids that hailed from the late 70's and 80's that held open arms for DUKE. It was such a long time ago but, I remember all the seasoned musicians having a beef with it.
There were 2 seperate mentalities on both bookends. It's been that way for decades. When Genesis performed their later commercial material, older fans of early Genesis would exit out the doors and smoke cigars? For this to make any sense whatsoever, one must take into account the many years that Genesis travelled the road as a prog band with theatrical concepts. This is how people knew them basically and if you were to just come along with a more commerical sounding effort it would be a little too extreme. Originally, what was known as a simple difference in musical preference became a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans. |
Sorry but I cannot quite agree with your comment of a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans.....
There are many fans that went on to enjoy " Shapes" all the way to " Calling All Stations", even Collins solo works and did not care for the returning of fox head costumes or Slipperman outifits that made it almost impossible for Gabriel to sing on stage. Those fans loved that era just as much, they just did not get so hung up about change. I would argue that IT was poor but still enjoyable but it did not stop fans eagerly purchasing their next studio release. I in fact still argue that WCD or CAS are very much progressive still
So maybe that was a self imploded breakdown of one group of Genesis fans 
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: July 30 2010 at 17:14 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
OK you totally misspelled it. It's spelled Slarti. Cohesiveness doesn't particularly matter for me. I've read a lot of opinions critical of it, but I liked the album with the exception of Misunderstanding which was definitely some kind of mistake unless you consider the path the band went on in subsequent albums.
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Nicely done.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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genbanks
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2010
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 956
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 08:35 |
Chris S wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
berger_king wrote:
I'm sure this may have been discussed to death before but I am new here and curious... how many of you as a whole would view 'Duke' as a turning point in Genesis' career? Most opinions I've seen seem to label this as the album before things start to really 'fall apart' prog-wise and they become a lot more pop-oriented. I do enjoy aspects of later albums but 'Duke' was my first major exposure to the band. I'd heard stuff from all eras before but this was the one that really drew me in.
I consider 'Duke' to be not so much a turning point as maybe one last stab at their old glory. It did usher in the pop-era but it was not overwhelming so. In fact I think it features some of the best playing in the band's career, particularly from Collins on the opener and Mike Rutherford on both bass and guitar throughout. Personally I think both the albums that came before this were no where near as good, on any level, and that you can't really say things declined after this, they had already started declining as soon as Hackett exited. I see the career as peaks and valleys and not one clear jumping off point for the loss of the 'old sound'. But for my money 'Duke' is the last stab at the band attempting to go full-tilt in delivering everything that made them so good, commercial or not. I don't think they were ever as progressive again, and likewise for my money they never wrote a better pop song than 'Misunderstanding' either. It's an interesting dichotomy. |
With repect I must add that during the time of it's release or even on Then we were Three, musicians everywhere were disappointed in the musical direction that Genesis were going. During that time period most musicians who were offended by DUKE had already been touring and performing Genesis material. Such as bands do today with their tribute concepts. It was the generation of kids that hailed from the late 70's and 80's that held open arms for DUKE. It was such a long time ago but, I remember all the seasoned musicians having a beef with it.
There were 2 seperate mentalities on both bookends. It's been that way for decades. When Genesis performed their later commercial material, older fans of early Genesis would exit out the doors and smoke cigars? For this to make any sense whatsoever, one must take into account the many years that Genesis travelled the road as a prog band with theatrical concepts. This is how people knew them basically and if you were to just come along with a more commerical sounding effort it would be a little too extreme. Originally, what was known as a simple difference in musical preference became a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans. |
Sorry but I cannot quite agree with your comment of a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans.....
There are many fans that went on to enjoy " Shapes" all the way to " Calling All Stations", even Collins solo works and did not care for the returning of fox head costumes or Slipperman outifits that made it almost impossible for Gabriel to sing on stage. Those fans loved that era just as much, they just did not get so hung up about change. I would argue that IT was poor but still enjoyable but it did not stop fans eagerly purchasing their next studio release. I in fact still argue that WCD or CAS are very much progressive still
So maybe that was a self imploded breakdown of one group of Genesis fans |
I'm agree with that, and that's my case. A Genesis fan since Tresspass till CAS, and the main thing is that they always did something different than a simple pop hit. They were progressive but not repeating themselves. If you take a look on some Genesis fan sites (The Movement for example) you cann see many fans (I don't know if the most, but not a minority) that enjoy all the band history and not only the early times.
About DUKE I think that was a natural evolving. If the band didn't moved to a more commercial side, they were dissapeared at this time. The main change was with Abacab, and the principal instigator, in my opinion, was Mike Rutherford. He started to like more and more the rough guitar sound. He started in In that quiet earth, then put something in Down and Out and Deep in the Motherlode, then Turn it on again, and finally the riifs took a big place in Abacab, of course with the agree of Tony and Phil. When they knew that they can write succesful tracks, they got confidence and couldn't stop, specially when Phil exploded as a big rock star. But always they did something different, in every albums, and I think that was mainly Tony Banks.
Duke is a good album, not better than ATTWT as an integral piece but with stronger moments. Duke Travels is the best track, but Behind the lines, Duchess, Turn it on again, Heathaze, are really good too. Misunderstanding is excessively pop to my taste and Please don`t ask is Phil Collins and not Genesis (musically too simple and wiht not enough room to the others to collaborate)
About the conceptual side of the album, as other prog colleague said before, I think that the concept exceeds the called "Duke Suite", and seems to be that some kind of relationship between Albert and Duchess (as Phil said in the Lyceum DVD) is not restricted to the suite, appears flying over the overall album.
Edited by genbanks - July 31 2010 at 15:41
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 11:10 |
I waited in the rain for hours and it still sucked. 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 11:13 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
I waited in the rain for hours and it still sucked.
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Misunderstanding and another song on the album were taken from the list of songs from Phils first solo album. They actually turned down In The Air Tonight.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 11:38 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
I waited in the rain for hours and it still sucked.
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Misunderstanding and another song on the album were taken from the list of songs from Phils first solo album. They actually turned down In The Air Tonight. |
I did not know that. I'd trade those off.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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akamaisondufromage
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6797
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 11:57 |
I kind of like it but to me it's the beginning of the end. There must be some misunderstanding there must be some kind of mistake (Copywrite Slarti) oooooooooooooobollocks
drum machines I like but not for Genesis.
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Help me I'm falling!
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Anthony
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2006
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 774
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 12:58 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
I waited in the rain for hours and it still sucked.
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Misunderstanding and another song on the album were taken from the list of songs from Phils first solo album. They actually turned down In The Air Tonight. |
That's quite debatable. Phil says they turned down "In the air tonight", along with "If leaving me is easy" and "I missed again", but Tony states that Phil hadn't yet written "In the air tonight" at that moment.
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Future prosperity lies in the way you heal the world with love
(Introitus - The hand that feeds you)
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 13:00 |
Well one version is correct. 
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 13:42 |
genbanks wrote:
Chris S wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
berger_king wrote:
I'm sure this may have been discussed to death before but I am new here and curious... how many of you as a whole would view 'Duke' as a turning point in Genesis' career? Most opinions I've seen seem to label this as the album before things start to really 'fall apart' prog-wise and they become a lot more pop-oriented. I do enjoy aspects of later albums but 'Duke' was my first major exposure to the band. I'd heard stuff from all eras before but this was the one that really drew me in.
I consider 'Duke' to be not so much a turning point as maybe one last stab at their old glory. It did usher in the pop-era but it was not overwhelming so. In fact I think it features some of the best playing in the band's career, particularly from Collins on the opener and Mike Rutherford on both bass and guitar throughout. Personally I think both the albums that came before this were no where near as good, on any level, and that you can't really say things declined after this, they had already started declining as soon as Hackett exited. I see the career as peaks and valleys and not one clear jumping off point for the loss of the 'old sound'. But for my money 'Duke' is the last stab at the band attempting to go full-tilt in delivering everything that made them so good, commercial or not. I don't think they were ever as progressive again, and likewise for my money they never wrote a better pop song than 'Misunderstanding' either. It's an interesting dichotomy. |
With repect I must add that during the time of it's release or even on Then we were Three, musicians everywhere were disappointed in the musical direction that Genesis were going. During that time period most musicians who were offended by DUKE had already been touring and performing Genesis material. Such as bands do today with their tribute concepts. It was the generation of kids that hailed from the late 70's and 80's that held open arms for DUKE. It was such a long time ago but, I remember all the seasoned musicians having a beef with it.
There were 2 seperate mentalities on both bookends. It's been that way for decades. When Genesis performed their later commercial material, older fans of early Genesis would exit out the doors and smoke cigars? For this to make any sense whatsoever, one must take into account the many years that Genesis travelled the road as a prog band with theatrical concepts. This is how people knew them basically and if you were to just come along with a more commerical sounding effort it would be a little too extreme. Originally, what was known as a simple difference in musical preference became a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans. |
Sorry but I cannot quite agree with your comment of a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans.....
There are many fans that went on to enjoy " Shapes" all the way to " Calling All Stations", even Collins solo works and did not care for the returning of fox head costumes or Slipperman outifits that made it almost impossible for Gabriel to sing on stage. Those fans loved that era just as much, they just did not get so hung up about change. I would argue that IT was poor but still enjoyable but it did not stop fans eagerly purchasing their next studio release. I in fact still argue that WCD or CAS are very much progressive still
So maybe that was a self imploded breakdown of one group of Genesis fans |
I'm agree with that, and that's my case. A Genesis fan since Tresspass till CAS, and the main thing is that they always did something different than a simple pop hit. They were progressive but not repeating themselves. If you take a look on some Genesis fan sites (The Movement for example) you cann see many fans (I don't know if the most, but not a minority) that enjoy all the band history and not only the early times.
About DUKE I think that was a natural evolving. If the band didn't moved to a more commercial side, they were dissapeared at this time. The main change was with Abacab, and the principal instigator, in my opinion, was Mike Rutherford. He started to like more and more the rough guitar sound. He started in In that quiet earth, then put something in Down and Out and Deep in the Motherlode, then Turn it on again, and finally the riifs took a big place in Abacab, of course with the agree of Tony and Phil. When they knew that they can write succesful tracks, they got confidence and couldn't stop, specially when Phil exploded as a big rock star. But always they did something different, in every albums, and I think that was mainly Tony Banks.
Duke is a good album, not better than ATTWT as an integral piece but with stronger moments. Duke Travels is the best track, but Behind the lines, Duchess, Turn it on again, Heathaze, are really good too. Misunderstanding is excessively pop to my taste and Please don`t ask is Phil Collins and not Genesis (musically too simple and wiht not enough room to the others to collaborate)
About the conceptual side of the album, as other prog colleague said before, I think that the concept exceeds the called "Duke Suite", and seems to be that some kind of relationship between Albert and Duchess (as Phil said in the Lyceum DVD) is not restricted to the suite, appears flying over the overall album. |
Do you remember Phil Collins giving definition to the seperate crowds? He stated several times that the more commercial Genesis drew a female audience. A large percentage that never exsisted with the trench coat guys who were only interested in the Gabriel line up? I noticed it amongst musicans all around me but, also music fans as well.
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TODDLER
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Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
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Posted: July 31 2010 at 14:07 |
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It's quite like throwing a handfull of quarters into the air and observing if they land heads or tails. Obviously, in my area and during road travel in between studio sessions in the big city, ...sound techs that ran recording studios and travelling musicians were disappointed in the new Genesis. You make it sound as if it were the opposite way and it was not really. I was in the thicket of the music business when Genesis changed their style and the reaction was fierce. Maybe the coins fell differently elsewhere but, nevertheless it effected the extremests. Maybe in other states the abundance of a one sided crowd populated over another which was defiante. It was rather extreme in some places because what you are talking about here is a band which took on a new direction in the late 70's. I know you have made reference to a crowd of Genesis fans that grew up on the early material and followed the band up to Calling All Stations.....but there couldn't have been too many in the areas that I travelled. I am only making an observation on what I witnessed in those days and it's interesting to me how fans of Genesis would argue endlessly defending either side and frequently at social gatherings. I always got the impression it was a extreme reaction to a band that was loved by both crowds.
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Thoughts on 'Duke'?
