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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:31
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


What's a libertarian nation to do without a proper army? And who does the army represent? In a libertarian country where absolute elimination of the state occurs, frontiers pretty much disappear (at least from our side), massive migration, and there we can have the much dreaded chaos that I think can be avoided with minimal government. Also, if a country where to reach a state of true zero-government, who's to stop foreign foes from coming and pretty much doing what they want? I don't think private forces would be able to manage anything in this case, not economically (they build the arsenal anyway) but from an organizational point of view. That's why I think an army is necessary, an army that represents everybody (not the king president, but the people, the president being just the commander in chief) and that is ready only for defensive purposes. Funded, sadly, by some form of taxation. If we are to enjoy the fruits of a free market, we better protect it or not? 



An anarchist society gains some protection from three relatively plausible things that I'll assume exist and thus serve as a deterrent:
1) The anarchist society will be wealthier than other societies.
2) Free of any trade restrictions, the anarchist society will trade with any and all countries
3) Without a central government, invading an anarchist society is difficult. (See the US in Afghanistan) 




#3 is where I take issue.

#3 implies a nation. I would bet that an anarchist society would have plenty of infighting.  Taking over a nation with infighting is relatively easy.

Invading Afghanistan wasn't hard.  Getting out seems to be the problem.

Overthrowing the weak government was easily done. Actually accomplishing anything in Afghanistan is hard because the government is meaningless. I

I don't see why an anarchist society would be prone to more infighting than say the USA as it is now. I would see less reasons for infighting. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 32573 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:29
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Apparently, being libertarian implies a strong affinity towards beer... 



Beer is great. I've been on a bit of a gin kick lately though. I love me some gin.


I wrote my first two novels drunk on gin and beer.  I don't discriminate.  Cool
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Points: 32573 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:28
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


What's a libertarian nation to do without a proper army? And who does the army represent? In a libertarian country where absolute elimination of the state occurs, frontiers pretty much disappear (at least from our side), massive migration, and there we can have the much dreaded chaos that I think can be avoided with minimal government. Also, if a country where to reach a state of true zero-government, who's to stop foreign foes from coming and pretty much doing what they want? I don't think private forces would be able to manage anything in this case, not economically (they build the arsenal anyway) but from an organizational point of view. That's why I think an army is necessary, an army that represents everybody (not the king president, but the people, the president being just the commander in chief) and that is ready only for defensive purposes. Funded, sadly, by some form of taxation. If we are to enjoy the fruits of a free market, we better protect it or not? 



An anarchist society gains some protection from three relatively plausible things that I'll assume exist and thus serve as a deterrent:
1) The anarchist society will be wealthier than other societies.
2) Free of any trade restrictions, the anarchist society will trade with any and all countries
3) Without a central government, invading an anarchist society is difficult. (See the US in Afghanistan) 




#3 is where I take issue.

#3 implies a nation. I would bet that an anarchist society would have plenty of infighting.  Taking over a nation with infighting is relatively easy.

Invading Afghanistan wasn't hard.  Getting out seems to be the problem.
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:28
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Apparently, being libertarian implies a strong affinity towards beer... 


La cerveza es la libertad
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:27
Gin is pretty solid, but it's no beer.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:23
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Apparently, being libertarian implies a strong affinity towards beer... 



Beer is great. I've been on a bit of a gin kick lately though. I love me some gin.
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:23
I like having a strong military as much as anyone, but honestly our defense budget could probably be cut in half without anyone noticing. I would really like to get rid of medicare/mediciad/SSI though
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:20
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



Our big bills are interest on current debt and defense.  The former you can't opt out of, and the latter most of us don't want to.



I want to!

Get a haircut and a job you damn hippie
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:15
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



Our big bills are interest on current debt and defense.  The former you can't opt out of, and the latter most of us don't want to.



I want to!
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:14
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


What's a libertarian nation to do without a proper army? And who does the army represent? In a libertarian country where absolute elimination of the state occurs, frontiers pretty much disappear (at least from our side), massive migration, and there we can have the much dreaded chaos that I think can be avoided with minimal government. Also, if a country where to reach a state of true zero-government, who's to stop foreign foes from coming and pretty much doing what they want? I don't think private forces would be able to manage anything in this case, not economically (they build the arsenal anyway) but from an organizational point of view. That's why I think an army is necessary, an army that represents everybody (not the king president, but the people, the president being just the commander in chief) and that is ready only for defensive purposes. Funded, sadly, by some form of taxation. If we are to enjoy the fruits of a free market, we better protect it or not? 



An anarchist society gains some protection from three relatively plausible things that I'll assume exist and thus serve as a deterrent:
1) The anarchist society will be wealthier than other societies.
2) Free of any trade restrictions, the anarchist society will trade with any and all countries
3) Without a central government, invading an anarchist society is difficult. (See the US in Afghanistan) 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:11
Apparently, being libertarian implies a strong affinity towards beer... 

In relation to this, I just read this article that makes a good point for something that Younger Pat argued in favor of a few months ago. I totally agree... 
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Points: 32573 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:00
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I got that Pat.  I looked at several pie sharts before posting.  I deliberately left out SS & Med because those funds don't (at present) contribute to the public debt.

That makes the DoD #1.

I get what you're saying.  I just posted the pie chart for general reference, not to throw more spears at you.  Wink


Spears rhymes with beers...I'd have taken them!  Cry

LOL

LOL  Enjoying a nice Sam Adams as we speak.


My current stock consists of:

1 Sam Adams Revolutionary Rye Ale (too f**king good to drink)
1 Sam Adams Fezziwig (leftover from Christmas)
6 Milwaukee Best Ice
4 Milwaukee Best Premium (i.e., Regular)
1 Miller High Life

So yeah, after tomorrow, I'll be drinking tea until Tuesday next week.
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:55
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I got that Pat.  I looked at several pie sharts before posting.  I deliberately left out SS & Med because those funds don't (at present) contribute to the public debt.

That makes the DoD #1.

I get what you're saying.  I just posted the pie chart for general reference, not to throw more spears at you.  Wink


Spears rhymes with beers...I'd have taken them!  Cry

LOL

LOL  Enjoying a nice Sam Adams as we speak.
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Points: 32573 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:50
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I got that Pat.  I looked at several pie sharts before posting.  I deliberately left out SS & Med because those funds don't (at present) contribute to the public debt.

That makes the DoD #1.

I get what you're saying.  I just posted the pie chart for general reference, not to throw more spears at you.  Wink


Spears rhymes with beers...I'd have taken them!  Cry

LOL
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:45
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I got that Pat.  I looked at several pie sharts before posting.  I deliberately left out SS & Med because those funds don't (at present) contribute to the public debt.

That makes the DoD #1.

I get what you're saying.  I just posted the pie chart for general reference, not to throw more spears at you.  Wink
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Points: 32573 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:36
I got that Pat.  I looked at several pie sharts before posting.  I deliberately left out SS & Med because those funds don't (at present) contribute to the public debt.

That makes the DoD #1.

Edited by Epignosis - February 07 2011 at 20:37
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:33
Handy pie chart.

< ="-" ="text/; =utf-8">
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:29
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

As much as I support our military, defense spending is more out of control than entitlement spending.  What a lot of folks don't realize is that "welfare" takes up so little of our budget, that if it were cut out completely, practically nothing would change in terms of government spending.

Our big bills are interest on current debt and defense.  The former you can't opt out of, and the latter most of us don't want to.

That leaves the department of education.  Evil Smile

And we could get rid of the useless FDA, EPA, and other alphabet soup leaches.

And don't leave out the BOAS...

What's the BOAS, besides an awfully big snake? ConfusedTongue
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:27

What's a libertarian nation to do without a proper army? And who does the army represent? In a libertarian country where absolute elimination of the state occurs, frontiers pretty much disappear (at least from our side), massive migration, and there we can have the much dreaded chaos that I think can be avoided with minimal government. Also, if a country where to reach a state of true zero-government, who's to stop foreign foes from coming and pretty much doing what they want? I don't think private forces would be able to manage anything in this case, not economically (they build the arsenal anyway) but from an organizational point of view. That's why I think an army is necessary, an army that represents everybody (not the king president, but the people, the president being just the commander in chief) and that is ready only for defensive purposes. Funded, sadly, by some form of taxation. If we are to enjoy the fruits of a free market, we better protect it or not? 




Edited by The T - February 07 2011 at 20:28
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Points: 32573 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:27
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Rob, I'm afraid that's not true at all.  Mandatory spending (SS, Medicare/Medicaid, etc.) is 56% of the federal budget for FY11.  The base defense budget (excluding war costs) is $550b, only slightly more than just Medicare taken by itself.

Defense used to take up a much larger percentage of the budget 50+ years ago - besides spikes for various foreign adventures such as Vietnam, that percentage has steadily shrunk over that time period.

That all said, I agree that there is far too much waste in the DoD budget, and it could be pared down considerably.  At the least, SecDef is trying to move in the right direction.  If "Tea Partiers" want to have an ounce of credibility, they'll include defense along with everything else in considering what cuts are to be made.


The figures I referred to treat SS/Medicare as separate items because they are not "federal income tax," but "FICA."  I apologize if I used the term "entitlement" inappropriately.
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