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TODDLER 
Forum Senior Member 
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
 Posted: October 29 2011 at 16:11 |
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Well, supposedly the middle improv section was a freak accident of the spontaneous nature. I'm not sure if I personally like it that much. I think it is somehow meant to be fitting to the piece instead of the reaction of some listeners who feel the song itself drops out and is replaced with noodling. I've heard In the Court of the Crimson King off and on for 35 years and I react to it in the same way I do whenever I channel surf and run across the "Wizard Of Oz". A strange film I saw many times as a child and how can I relate to it now? The film rolls on as I change channels ....while in the back of my mind I recall scenes from the film I wish to view just for laughs and so I return to it every 15 or 20 minutes during the course of it's running. As I view it ...I am still left with a strange impression that the course of time cannot change. That is the way I feel about "Moonchild", it's center improv section, and the rest of the album. It annoys me sometimes...yet I can't deny it's strange unique presentation.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: October 29 2011 at 16:14 |
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I think Certif1ed posted a very detailed and erudite analysis of Moonchild on the forums some time ago (can't find it alas) which explained how the instrumental section mirrored and replicated the lyrics in all manner of subtle and punning juxtapositions etc
BUT My sister's an art reacher and she has tried over the years to explain abstract art to me to the point where yes, I can appreciate the means and the intention, but this knowledge does not make such art any more enjoyable for me. If you don't like eggs then not even a signed copy of the chef's state of the art omelette recipe is gonna convince you otherwise. |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: October 30 2011 at 03:46 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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refugee
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: November 20 2006 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 7026 |
Posted: October 30 2011 at 05:57 |
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Henry linked to Certif1ed’s review on the first page. It’s very interesting.
For me, the instrumental passage sounds like some kind of conversation between the instruments. It’s getting more and more free tonal (but not atonal in the strict sense of the word [twelve tone music] as far as I can hear) before it ends up in a pentatonic coda. I have to be very focused to enjoy it – but I think it’s worth it. |
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
Posted: October 30 2011 at 07:37 |
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 I've always had the same impression. |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: October 30 2011 at 09:49 |
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Edited by Slartibartfast - October 30 2011 at 09:50 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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refugee
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: November 20 2006 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 7026 |
Posted: October 30 2011 at 11:28 |
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In a way you’re right because they never return to the initial melody. Still there’s a very distinct change towards the end, from the free tonal part (which probably is the most difficult to enjoy) to the tonal/pentatonic coda, so it’s not altogether wrong to say that Moonchild has a "middle part". |
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
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Eetu Pellonpaa
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 17 2005 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 4828 |
Posted: October 31 2011 at 16:45 |
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Hi, if you wish, please accept some thoughts from me to this half-remarkable question:
Cert1fied's interpretation is indeed wonderful, and in my opinion shows also the strength of Peter Sinfield's ability to write poetry, which can be understood from many symbolistic perspectives, or just be enjoyed as beautiful romantic lyricsm. When the music and lyrics unite in this manner, and the listener is capable of finding associations and reasons from more abstract characteristics, I detect the really fine potential of art being realized. I do not personally like the instrumental movement very much, which is also from my observation categorically cut from all official KC compillations with Moonchild.I agree however that it is phase interesting as experimentation, and contrasts the other songs of the album, however not for me very succesfully. I'm also happy to learn here there are listeners who like it, and can argument their opinions most profoundly. I believe having some appetite for minimal and atonal improvisations, but what I find in this piece troublesome is firstly the mood where the listener is entered to it; Melodic and finely detailed composed part works as introduction for the sequence, and though in theoretical level the concept could be seen interesting, this debated main part seems like a disappointing conclusion for the composed part. This I think is a factor caused by the second point; That this discussed improvisational section is not in my humble opinion very focused to creation of coherent end result, but emphazised the "avantgardistic" dialogue of guitar and perscussions without valid responsibility of end result. On more concrete level; Fripp is in many parts doing quite beautiful mantras, but the neurotic short spasms from the rhythm section and which the guitar answers feel annoying to myself. About the improvisation quality, as the band was so new, it is possible this reflects to the succesfulness of the open tune. Beginnings often hold much power in spirit, but also much weakness in self-criticism and some uncoherence due search of desired ways. For example the similar abstract sequences in Wetton-Cross era recordings worked much better, as the soundscapes had clear psyhcological qualities, which I feel these tender little testings lack. The mentioned other quiet improvs Peter Sinfield told are ofcourse interesting too, material which you may have listened from "Epitaph" CD's or other available 1969 live recordings, offering glimpses to these live sessions with poor audio quality. Quite interesting moments, but the musical incoherence is in my opinion often there present also, a characterstic which does not need to dull the shining of these early recordings however. I also thought about the original question, the considertations "why I don't get this part of the record", indicates how coronized the album is in value terms, as if would be impossible that there could be simply poor moments on it.
I consider judging "good" and "bad" in arts are mostly personal opinions, and the meaning of these insights have merits mostly in sociological groups where some artifacts, like this record, hold a sacred status. I like some moments on this "holy album", and agree it's historical value in heavy & symphonic prog, but my own interests are drawn currently to slighlty different music, and I think the "progressive rock" innovations which I personally am mostly interested were created earlier in the psychedelic musical fields; These sounds do not relate so much to heavy or symphonic prog sound what I belive this record manifests. Many also seem to feel the following record was a no good carbon copy of the first album, but for me it is more fine tuned version of the same idea, and much more rewarding album as a listening experience, even though it lacks the sphere of progressive rock pioneering blessing this album.
Thank you, it was good to listen again what felt unpleasant 15 years ago.
 Sounded bit different, but didn't change totally the opinion however. Here's a mutilated version where the dreamy wandering is omited from the composed part, enrichened with lovely children book illustrations (escapes, good night......  ). |
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005 Location: hell Status: Offline Points: 28427 |
Posted: October 31 2011 at 17:46 |
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^Great post Eetu, I agree with your take on it.
 Cert's review is very imaginative but maybe too much so. I could write a scholarly paper about how Phaedra is a concept album about the world war II but that won't make it true.Basically I think Moonchild is a valid but failed experiment. It probably wasn't meant as filler, but comes off that way. Of all the new exciting things (for the time) that they tried on that album, it's not surprising that not everything worked. I never skip it, out of respect. It's actually pretty trippy and enjoyable when I'm in the mood. |
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008 Location: PA, USA Status: Offline Points: 4335 |
Posted: October 31 2011 at 18:46 |
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If you listen to the entirety of "Moonchild" everytime you put ITCOTCK on then you will be spending a lot of your life, that could be spent listening to music, listening to dead air. Enjoy the first 2:20 and skip the last 10 minutes.
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 Time always wins. |
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paganinio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1327 |
Posted: October 31 2011 at 19:19 |
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OP have you heard any avant-garde jazz or just pure intense stuff. Actually if you like King Crimson's Starless (who doesn't) you should know the power of Moonchild since they run in the same vein. The power of letting loose of your mind and just fly. Fly on your wings.
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008 Location: PA, USA Status: Offline Points: 4335 |
Posted: October 31 2011 at 19:54 |
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The power of Moonchild is in the first 2:20 after that it's someone very softly moving a cymbal. Perhaps they are moving it over to Brian Eno's place where he can use it to collect dust on one of his dreadful ambient albums. I believe ambient is by definition the sound of instruments collecting dust.
 Ok, got off topic there, but anyway: flying on your wings is fine but so is wanting to hear some music in your music. Starless is a different animal, there is plenty of music throughout.
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Time always wins. |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18708 |
Posted: October 31 2011 at 21:07 |
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You know what's hard about something like this?
It's like telling people that parts of Beethoven's 9th are a waste, or parts of this and that are also a waste. In the end, we are trying to state that the artist has no right to paint a Mona Lisa or a sculpto do a Venus de Milo, because you and I will sit here and try to figure it all out ...
Give it up ... stop asking questions, and let the "child" live. Sooner or later, the piece of music will have "character" and grow up, and you will see something else that you did not see before ... but nooooooo ... we have to say that it is nothing and music'less!
The real issue is that the board is taking up a very classical attitude towards the music (with its definition) but they don't believe in the music itself ... because the music is not the art ... the idea is ... how academic is that?
Rarely, is improvisation done for improvisation's sakes ... that is way too hard to do and "direction-less" for music, and most music exercise is much more focus'ed than otherwise ... either on a chord, a note, a sound, a lyric, or something else. But to say that it is meaningless ... I seriously doubt that ANY ONE OF US ever plays music or does any art ... because we don't give a sh*t and it doesn't mean anything ... to us or to someone else.
The main issue is that we think that "it has to have a meaning", which some lyrics are supposed to kiss our as$ with!, and by saying that, you are not allowing that "vision" to have a life of its own ... because you are denying its ability to exist. The fact of the matter is ... IT EXISTS, and we can listen to it. So get over it. The child has a scratch in his bum, and a wart in his nose? ... so what? .... it's not ugly ... that's life!
   It's like asking people from this board to sit and listen to the Portsmouth Sinfonia ... it will never happen because there is not enough heart and appreciation for the spirit from folks that sometimes we think don't have any ... and yet, they do! ... and we're not progressive enough as people adn thinkers to even have a heart and appreciate the progressiveness and incredible effort to get something like that done ... but forget it ... go play/listen to your 4/4 prog! Edited by moshkito - October 31 2011 at 21:10 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18708 |
Posted: October 31 2011 at 21:11 |
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Thank you ... it's a conversation with spirit! ... if we keep it cryptic enough we can get rid of many of these neo-prog'rs and neo-progressive folks!
Hehehehe !!!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5160 |
Posted: November 01 2011 at 04:37 |
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It's one of the many sections in the music I listen to which, if when playing my girlfriend Katia happens to pass by, she will sneak her head in and shout at me "how the hell can you like THIS?! something in your brains must be definitely wrong!".
There are many of those, not just because of being too "experimental noise" but can be other reasons too, some too heavy, or too crazy, or too loud or whatever. Katia's shouts have made me much more self-aware of this, now even when I'm alone at home or in my car, when listening to some sections I just think to myself "if Katia would see me right now she would shout one of her "how the hell can you like THIS?!"".
And yet, I rarely skip them, I guess "like them" is maybe not the right expression but I listen to them anyway and they make part of the whole.
Edited by Gerinski - November 01 2011 at 04:37 |
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AtomicCrimsonRush
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 02 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14258 |
Posted: November 01 2011 at 08:56 |
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^^^ Like that. I played Moonchild and at first my wife was like "Geez that is pretty" and then it changed to "Is this the same song?" and finally "What are they trying to achieve here?" It really is quite baffling to the average listener.
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desistindo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 02 2010 Status: Offline Points: 4321 |
Posted: November 01 2011 at 10:09 |
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I think you might misinterpreted me: im not trying to get to a sort of "ideological" notion of this track (if yes, i would play it backwards  ). Im just trying to get into it by a different listening. I mean, i listen to Ummagumma and it provides me with more imaginary content than Moonchild. And i am beware that we dont have to "understand" a piece of music to like it, sometimes it flows natuaraly in your soul (you could disagree, cause for me music is a religious experience). But im sure we should train our ears to estrangement, till we get used to it...Then, we seek for more estrangement.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18708 |
Posted: November 01 2011 at 20:17 |
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Too bad that your definition for prog and the music came about 20 years after the music was made!
And of course, today's audience, can't handle a little fun and improvisation and experimentation! Even if it was meaningless!
Gawd ... we need another Frank Zappa so bad right now!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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sideburndude...
Forum Groupie 
Joined: October 13 2011 Status: Offline Points: 69 |
Posted: November 01 2011 at 20:32 |
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I find the abstract middle section very enjoyable for the first 5 minutes of it until you realize it is really not going anywhere. Other ambient or abstract songs of the same genre like "The Waiting Room" by Genesis, are great becuase they build into something and the tension created by the passage is resolved in a climax. But Moonchild just ends with apparently no meaning or direction. Perhaps that is the beauty people see in the song but that is why Moonchild does not appeal to me.
Edited by sideburndude... - November 01 2011 at 20:33 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18708 |
Posted: November 01 2011 at 20:33 |
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I have found, from writing and studying my own process, that the best way to learn how to write and be creative is when you do ... the very thing that Bowie, Byrne, Eno and those folks used to talk about ... the very Burroughs idea of "52 pickup" ... and then see what you have ...and go from there.
It's not easy to do with music, but musicians are the "most afraid" to try different things, because it is very hard to adjust and get back to the chord/note that is the force behind it all ... but folks in "kruatrock" and other experimental folks, showed that it was a falacy for us to think that we could not get back ... Djam Karet is the perfect example in the first 5 albums! In fact, what you learn is that ... one has absolutely nothing to do with the other ... but we have an issue here ...
Convention, and my sister is very much of a well known painter in Europe with many international exhibits of her art, is the issue ... for her, art is a VERY mental process that is slightly beyond definition and the only value in it is when you have something at the end of 30 hours of work on it (let's say ... !!!) and she does not trust the immediate and inspired improvisational side of the art. She can enjoy a Keith Jarrett, or listen to some jazz, but for her that is some music that is "composed" ... and she can not reconcile that music with the free form side of it at all!
I think that we have the same view of music here ... and thus, getting an understanding of "Moonchild" is a difficult thing ... lest I tell you the famous novel called "Moonchild" that was about corrupting the girl ... which might just be the real comment behind it all ... the soft, innocent, quiet, interesting beauty ... of a child in the middle of a meadow ... eventually corrupted ... and what's worse ... we, as the social animals that are not sensitive enough to understand and do something about that ... to the point where we don't like the very peace and innocence and beauty that it is trying to show us ... softly ...quietly ... as a child sleeps and rests ...
Sorry ... it's still a masterpiece in my book. And if all people can do is look for a meaning, may I suggest they go study the big book a little more, because in the end, the truth is right in front of you, or as the man once said ... the father and I are one ... but we don't know the difference or what that means! Worse of all ... we don't want to know!
"Far worse things ... await man ... than death!" Edited by moshkito - November 01 2011 at 20:33 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Enlighten me about KC´s "Moonchild"
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ExittheLemming wrote: