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manofmystery View Drop Down
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 22:56
Paul leads in Iowa


Time always wins.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 14:29
Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:


If you have an interesting interpretation of what most directly caused it, by all means, do tell. Aside from the labor union silliness, I haven't heard  any interesting modern interpretations, but I'm not an economist and do not frequently engage in conversations about the causes of events of 80 years ago.


Sure I'll type something up later.


Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:


When you talk about double-barreled questions, you mean that there are more aspects to the question than can be answered directly. For example, "How do you and your family feel about this?" would be to ask both how you feel and how your family feels. What I mean is that your question is incredibly complex. One could write a dissertation on it. Or maybe fourteen dissertations, depending on how it's interpreted.




And dissertations have been written on the depression, yet we're discussing it. I'm not sure I see your point.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 1184 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 14:10
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I only ask because if we don't even agree on the cause, agreeing on the solution has little chance of success. You don't seem like you really want to get into it though. I don't blame unions for the depression in the slightest.


If you have an interesting interpretation of what most directly caused it, by all means, do tell. Aside from the labor union silliness, I haven't heard  any interesting modern interpretations, but I'm not an economist and do not frequently engage in conversations about the causes of events of 80 years ago.

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


I'm unfamiliar with this expression.


When you talk about double-barreled questions, you mean that there are more aspects to the question than can be answered directly. For example, "How do you and your family feel about this?" would be to ask both how you feel and how your family feels. What I mean is that your question is incredibly complex. One could write a dissertation on it. Or maybe fourteen dissertations, depending on how it's interpreted.
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 14:03
Jay did a good job with the interview too I thought. Asked some pretty good questions for a non-political guy. Ron's honesty just blows me away. I can't think of another politician that is so unassuming. He's like a child sometimes. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 12:19
^I saw it. Very good, funny, and real.
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Points: 17645 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 10:51
Paul had a good appearance on Leno.  His favorite prez was Grover Cleveland.  
It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition
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Points: 89 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 10:41
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:



You do not not believe that the actual production and consumption matters, only the numeric values of purchases we label those words?


You mean adjusting for inflation correct? As in using "real" values instead of "nominal" ones? And yes that definitely matters, I'm not sure where you get the impression that I don't think it matters. 



No I mean there's a difference to an economy between producing doo-dads  or producing gizmos. 

I've already said that going to war is a pretty bad way to fix your economy despite the fact (when you have manufacturing) that it will do just that. Of course having an economy that only produces weapons for a global war is a bad thing. 
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 10:24
Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:



Market bubble. Overleveraged firms. Remarkable hubris. Something a lot like we had prior to this recession. People stopped buying, market really choked. And in case you start in that direction (not saying you will), the math just doesn't work out on labor unions causing it.


I only ask because if we don't even agree on the cause, agreeing on the solution has little chance of success. You don't seem like you really want to get into it though. I don't blame unions for the depression in the slightest.

Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:



This shotgun has far too many barrels, sir.


I'm unfamiliar with this expression.
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 10:22
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men and Helped Make the U.S. Into a Selfish, Greedy Nation

"Ayn Rand’s “philosophy” is nearly perfect in its immorality, which makes the size of her audience all the more ominous and symptomatic as we enter a curious new phase in our society....To justify and extol human greed and egotism is to my mind not only immoral, but evil.— Gore Vidal, 1961

Only rarely in U.S. history do writers transform us to become a more caring or less caring nation. In the 1850s, Harriet Beecher Stowe (1811-1896) was a strong force in making the United States a more humane nation, one that would abolish slavery of African Americans. A century later, Ayn Rand (1905-1982) helped make the United States into one of the most uncaring nations in the industrialized world, a neo-Dickensian society where healthcare is only for those who can afford it, and where young people are coerced into huge student-loan debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy."



Let's sum up Rand's philosophy in a nut shell: No man is permitted to harm any other man. A man has no moral responsibility to anybody aside from himself.

Jesus Christ how abjectly immoral that is to suggest that a person must just go through the world while doing no harm others.

It's such a poor headline. The article should read like, "Moronic writer dabbles in hyperbole of a philosopher he has never read."
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 10:18
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:


Both are acts of gov't, and if it can be said that WWII boosted the economy then it's possible that public works did too.


Yeahhhhh from a macroeconomic stand point. I was pointing out the gross immorality of one of the acts though.

Originally posted by KingCrimson776 KingCrimson776 wrote:


Labor (hopefully more useful than burning sh*t) is exchanged for resources/buying power, what is wrong with the gov't creating opportunities for this that the market did not provide? There are enough resources to feed everyone in the world, they just need to be distributed properly instead of being hoarded by those bred into a system which instills in them a greed they could never satisfy.


Thank you, but I would have preferred if you answered my question.
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 10:17
Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:



You do not not believe that the actual production and consumption matters, only the numeric values of purchases we label those words?


You mean adjusting for inflation correct? As in using "real" values instead of "nominal" ones? And yes that definitely matters, I'm not sure where you get the impression that I don't think it matters. 



No I mean there's a difference to an economy between producing doo-dads  or producing gizmos.


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - December 18 2011 at 10:19
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 08:34
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:



<font face="Arial" size="2">How Ayn Rand Seduced Generations of Young Men and Helped Make the U.S. Into a Selfish, Greedy Nation"Ayn Rand’s
“philosophy” is nearly perfect in its immorality, which makes the size
of her audience all the more ominous and symptomatic as we enter a
curious new phase in our society....To justify and extol human greed and
egotism is to my mind not only immoral, but evil.— Gore Vidal, 1961<p name="paragraph4" id="paragraph4">Only
rarely in U.S. history do writers transform us to become a more caring
or less caring nation. In the 1850s, Harriet Beecher Stowe (1811-1896)
was a strong force in making the United States a more humane nation, one
that would abolish slavery of African Americans. A century later, Ayn
Rand (1905-1982) helped make the United States into one of the most
uncaring nations in the industrialized world, a neo-Dickensian society
where healthcare is only for those who can afford it, and where young
people are coerced into huge student-loan debt that cannot be discharged
in bankruptcy."





Yes because the work of one writer can turn an entire nation in one direction.

America was born and built out of individualism and the desire to move forward (call it greed if you want). Rand's work didn't mold America into a "greedy nation" any more than Uncle Tom's Cabin freed the slaves by itself.

It's even worse when you recognize you haven't read one word by Rand. Admitedly, I haven't read the big novels. They're too big, and I have too many books right now. But at least in Anthem I don't see anything that matchs that stupid assesment. Now, as for 1984, it's a masterpiece. I'm not sure what you're saying about it.

To call individualism immoral is immoral for me. Greed? Well, maybe not the best character trait ever, but greed for money is as bad as the lust for power and equality, and at least it somewhat helps society advance.
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Points: 32589 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 08:19
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


As usual, Ayn Rand hate is a hate against a straw man.  Have you read any of her work personally?


I have, I have! It sucks. Horrendously. Massive failure of suspension of disbelief.


Quite wooden prose.  I don't care for her style.

Style trumps philosophy?


I agree with her ethical philosophy, but her writing is disagreeable.  LOL

Essentially, Rand spoke against "forced altruism," which is another way of saying "People should get to keep what they earn and not be forced to give it up to some nebulous 'greater good.'"  Rand was not anti-generosity (and therefore not "pro-greed").
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 08:12
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


As usual, Ayn Rand hate is a hate against a straw man.  Have you read any of her work personally?


I have, I have! It sucks. Horrendously. Massive failure of suspension of disbelief.


Quite wooden prose.  I don't care for her style.

Style trumps philosophy?
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 32589 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 08:00
Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


As usual, Ayn Rand hate is a hate against a straw man.  Have you read any of her work personally?


I have, I have! It sucks. Horrendously. Massive failure of suspension of disbelief.


Quite wooden prose.  I don't care for her style.
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Points: 1184 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 07:48
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


As usual, Ayn Rand hate is a hate against a straw man.  Have you read any of her work personally?


I have, I have! It sucks. Horrendously. Massive failure of suspension of disbelief.
Hail Eris!
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Points: 1184 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 07:47
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

What caused the depression?


Market bubble. Overleveraged firms. Remarkable hubris. Something a lot like we had prior to this recession. People stopped buying, market really choked. And in case you start in that direction (not saying you will), the math just doesn't work out on labor unions causing it.

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


What if we diverted most of the resources of this country to burning stations. The government would call for and largely fund billions of these burning stations. You require people to show up with a certain number of goods each day, they drop them into the fire, and they get handed a large sum of money. Would this strategy be able to fix economic downturns? Why or why not?


This shotgun has far too many barrels, sir.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 07:38
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Orwell's 1984.  Sinclair's The Jungle. Yes.  Sampled Rand but didn't bother with the whole things.  Yes.


Then perhaps you could stick to criticizing the philosophy of Orwell or Sinclair.  Wink



I freely admit to reading more critique of Rand that actually Rand's books. LOL  So I should just shut up and accept the damage her philosophy has done.  By the way, any Chomsky fans out there?
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Points: 32589 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 07:36
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Orwell's 1984.  Sinclair's The Jungle. Yes.  Sampled Rand but didn't bother with the whole things.  Yes.


Then perhaps you could stick to criticizing the philosophy of Orwell or Sinclair.  Wink
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 07:28
Orwell's 1984.  Sinclair's The Jungle. Yes.  Sampled Rand but didn't bother with the whole things.  Yes.
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