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Slartibartfast 
Collaborator
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Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Points: 29630
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 Posted: December 31 2011 at 05:56 |
Losing interest in prog would be like losing interest in sex, good food... Things I have lost interest in: disco, pro wrestling... 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 05:43 |
 cstack3 wrote:
catfood03 wrote:
My complaint about what I'm hearing in most modern music (prog or otherwise) is more compression these days, less dynamics. I blame this on the burgeoning MP3 format over the past few years. I guess why be expansive with music if the majority of your audience is going to listen to it on "earbuds" on a crowded street anyway?
I yearn to hear something lush and "overproduced" again! 
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Excellent point! I agree completely, I was doing studio work in the mid 1970's when compression became very popular.
Highly compressed MP3 files download faster, screw the music quality. |
Those are two completely different forms of compression - one you can hear and one you can't.
The audio compression of the 1970 is the one that reduces dynamics and makes everything a constant loudness - in the 70s it was used to squeeze more music onto one side of a vinyl disc because it made the grooves a standard width - on CD and mp3 audio compression does not affect how much music you cand squeeze onto a disc or into a file so it is used simply to make everything seem louder and "in your face" all the time.
Data compression used on mp3 does not affect the dynamics of the music and files have to be uncompressed back to normal for the sound to be heard - with mp3 playback this uncompression is done "in real time". If you say you can hear the effects of compression on an mp3 then I will have to take your word for it because I can't unless it is taken to really stupid extremes (which no one ever does because it sounds so bad - bad mp3 compression sounds like the worse distortion you've ever heard).
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What?
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Cimnele
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 26 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 39
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 05:25 |
TODDLER wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
I must say I lose interest in prog. It just does not interest me anymore what new albums come out, with the odd exception. Jazz and classical music are much more interesting, in my opinion.. There is so much music to discover which expands my mind more than prog; why, completely exploring the works of Johann Sebastian Bach lone seems to be a task that would take a lifetime but would be much more fulfilling than wasting my time with so-called "new" prog albums which are more or less just an endless repetition of what has already been said.What's more: I hate the way albums are being produced these days; they all sound extremely sterile. Each instrument clearly separated from the other. Some audio freaks may rejoice about that, but that is not what music sounds like when it is being played live. The instruments all mingle then; there are multiple reverberations and fractions of sound, and this is what makes music sound "alive"; so much nicer for my ears.I know many of you will disagree and come up with examples of what I absolutely "have" to hear. And I know equally well that I will listen to it, shrug and say "so what?" |
As I have often stated in the past....this endless repetition you speak of technically has to do with musicians choosing what they feel is the right path for practice and not having a mind of their own to know that it is the wrong one. As part of practices most professional musicians develop someone else's vocabulary to add to their own. John Coltrane would be a good example. The main course of Coltrane's vocabulary is in his improvisation. This is okay within itself if you're Jeff Berlin and you transcribe a Coltrane solo for bass....but it is not very okay in the case of Jon Clark sounding too much like Alan Holdsworth. In Prog the course is taken to imitate formulas, time signatures, and vocals from the past. I find that ridiculous because many of these musicians could find their own voice in prog if they simply focused on different methods of writing.
With bands like the NICE and others from the early prog days....the idea was to experiment with rock music by combining elements from Jazz and Classical music. It was a way to progress with a new sound and style....but years later (even in the 70's) , some bands took the easy way out. There was too much emulation of what others had done and they stood on the shoulders of these people who first created the ideas like copy cats. They didn't need to! Obviously they were schooled musicians who were diverse. Sometimes it was un-intentional.....for example...hearing the style of ELP for a whole of 2 minutes on Curved Air's "Piece of Mind". I could say the same for Classical composers who emulated Johann Sebastian Bach....(and there are many of them)....and you can also sum my little issue up by stating that everything in music has been tried or written before and that it is only a natural and common occurance for one writer to emulate another blah, blah.....but then what happened to prog? Why did that aspect seem more extreme in prog than other serious styles of music? Is it because guitarists like Bob Fripp and Steve Howe laid a foundation and everyone else got lazy and copied it? Back in the 70's Rare Bird's "As Your Mind Flies By" sounded way too much like Emerson. Beggar's Opera and Trace were too much like Emerson. Graham Field was just as outstanding on keyboards as Francis Monkman and so why did Monkman choose to not sound exactly like Emerson? For me that is a mystery. Was it ABC DUNHILL records or Warner Brothers asking Greenslade and Field to attempt the ELP sound or did they simply feel more comfortable emulating him instead of trying something new. Fripp tried something new with LIZARD and obviously others like Pulsar, Harmonium, and Ange had originality with their ideas. So somewhere along the line players in prog decided to emulate more and neglect original creativity. |
Well said.
I've long suspected the current crop of prog musicians are too focused on rudiments and tribute, and on guest starring on albums, instead of writing something good enough to be associated with them, rather than the previous era.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 05:06 |
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Fickle. I guess I'm just the freak here for never losing my interest.
Edited by Slartibartfast - December 31 2011 at 05:20
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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darkshade
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 10964
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 03:59 |
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Nothing wrong with losing interest in music. Ive lost interest in every genre of music Ive ever liked at one point or another. Most I come back to. I was into prog for over 2 years before I lost interest, then rarely threw anything on; listening to jazz, world music or funk instead. Then 2 years later, I got back into it through a series of new albums that came out, and Ive been back ever since. I was more into the 70s prog during my first run, but when I got back into prog, Ive been exploring mostly new stuff, occasionally going back to the 70s to see what I missed.
I've "come to terms" with my tastes. My big favorite genres all shuffle around and go through waves. Half the time I listen to about 6-7 different genres in one day.
The only thing that may happen one day, is that I lose interest in ALL the music I like, and feel the need to find something truly new.
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Ambient Hurricanes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 00:07 |
Warthur wrote:
It's always good to take a holiday from any genre you've been listening to a lot of and see what else is out there. I did for about five years and by the time I came back there was a heap of new releases to catch up on and a bunch of older releases which the community had rediscovered and had become more prominent again. |
Agreed. I think there's a number of people on this fourm who have mentioned taking a "holiday" from prog at one time or another and then coming back even more excited about it. Also, there's plently of original music nowadays; I'm not going to give a list of bands, as I think it's best to investigate personally, but try looking at the subgenres you haven't really explored yet. Prog is an incredibly diverse type of music; it can't really be considered a genre because many of it's various types have almost nothing in common with each other. I'm sure that there are certain sections of progarchives (and prog in general) that you haven't yet explored and that contain something that will peak your musical curiosity. If that doesn't do it for you, then I'd say to follow Warthur's advice. There's lots of other good music out there. And you're right about Bach, btw. I don't know a prog artist who can consistently match him for prolificity, intricacy, and sheer beauty.
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 7529
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 23:27 |
catfood03 wrote:
My complaint about what I'm hearing in most modern music (prog or otherwise) is more compression these days, less dynamics. I blame this on the burgeoning MP3 format over the past few years. I guess why be expansive with music if the majority of your audience is going to listen to it on "earbuds" on a crowded street anyway?
I yearn to hear something lush and "overproduced" again!
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Excellent point! I agree completely, I was doing studio work in the mid 1970's when compression became very popular.
Highly compressed MP3 files download faster, screw the music quality.
I steer clear of i-tunes for any serious music, and rely upon CDs. Some of my favorites are the earliest ones vs. digitally re-mastered. When the first CDs were cut from the studio masters, you got all the tape hiss & dynamics that the producers had to work with.
Good enough for Eddie Offord, good enough for me.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65857
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 23:27 |
BaldFriede wrote:
What's more: I hate the way albums are being produced these days; they all sound extremely sterile. Each instrument clearly separated from the other. Some audio freaks may rejoice about that, but that is not what music sounds like when it is being played live. The instruments all mingle then; there are multiple reverberations and fractions of sound, and this is what makes music sound "alive"; so much nicer for my ears |
I tend to agree, it almost seems compulsive to record this way and I find I dislike the material on those albums more often. It's not just new music either, e.g. the Diary of a Madman re-recording is an appalling rewrite of history, and has driven the original into 'obscurity'.
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10266
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 23:01 |
Catcher10 wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
What is "prog" anyways? .......Don't answer that!!! 
I can see your points, but I generally don't get tired or bored of a genre, more so an artist or group of artists. So I then just move on to something different.
I can't get into classical music to the point where I feel I need to spend the next 5yrs trying to understand it...call me lame I guess, but I don't care for it that much.
Jazz is different, always has been for me, it will always be a work in progress, positive progress for sure. As far as music production and it sounding sterile...welcome to the age of digital files and the dreaded CD! I do expect in the next 5 yrs the CD will get better and so will digital music.
Since I am a vinyl aficionado, I don't suffer from your hearing dilema......and jazz should only be listened to on a turntable. It should be a crime to listen to A Love Supreme on a CD......
I would not take your issue as a bad thing, at least you are still exploring new music, the problem will be if you get tired of music in general! |
I actually think the sound difference between turntable records and CDs, apart from some unwanted wild noise which you get on turntable records after some time, is in the mind only.
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Well that is very true......my ears are connected to my head where my mind lives and it tells me its awesome!!
So you are complaining of some "wild noise" but yet you prefer live music (which we all do), and have no problem with people screaming or talking during a live show?.......or say at a classical concert recital hearing someone coughing the whole time? That to me is "wild noises".........
Anyhow........Happy New Year! |
That is part of the atmosphere. People are not wild noise, they make music alive. I much prefer live concerts and live albums to studio albums. And especially when a band does not stick to the studio version. Actually that was how classical concerts used to be too, by the way (and luckily there is a tendency of them becoming that way again). In a piano concert or a violin concert (or any concert foro a soloist and orchestra) the artist used to improvise a lot. The Romantic era with its genius-cult changed all that; suddenly only the written notes counted. Actually compositions with "basso continuo" were very much like jazz compositions - the soloist or soloists improvised, and the rhythm section improvised too (along a given harmonic scheme). Bacg, Beethoven, Mozart, Händel and many other composers were masters of improvisation; Bach could even improvise a fugue on any given theme; most composers consider composing a fugue a very difficult task already. John Cage, by the way, pointed out that in live concerts there is no "wild noise" when he wrote his famous composition 4'33.
Edited by BaldFriede - December 30 2011 at 23:09
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 22:03 |
It does happen ya know, growing out of something (either for a time or forever). Long stretches I have just not been able to listen to certain bands or even styles. Aint that big a deal. Also most (almost all) current music either sucks or is unoriginal so if you're looking for that there's nothing to even recommend
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 22:01 |
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I don't really follow genres as such and prog is only a part of what I listen to. But I loved Mastodon, Wilson and Unexpect's releases for the year. As for production, it's not only about recording styles but also the equipment and tones used. Wilson tried to bring a 70s like alive feeling to his new album but it still feels very contemporary because there are contemporary sounds being used, contemporary influences. Rock music has as such got more and more 'urbane', 'clinical' and 'cold' over the years. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing and is an apt reflection of changes in lifestyle. But if that turns you off, you won't find much to like in rock based music as such, let alone prog.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 18057
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 21:40 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
So you are complaining of some "wild noise" |
The needle is scraping away at the vinyl every time you listen to it even if you are perfectly careful and have a supreme turntable and needle.
Also you should know that when you are walking you are falling at the same time...
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Its not an issue....u know that. If your a normal vinyl collector of our age you should have about 300-500 albums, I doubt you play all those albums so much that you actually "wear" them down. I have a friend that has 1500 albums......There are albums he has not played in 2-3 yrs. I have about 400 albums and certainly many I have not played in several years. Even my most played I will spin them 4-5x per month, and I have zero problem in buying a replacement album every 6-7 yrs.
I just listened to Grace For Drowning on vinyl, my friend got it for Christmas, bloody AMAZING!!! Its no secret that SW is doing an amazing job with his vinyl releases with PT and his work with other artists.
I for one am 100% sold.......but I know that digital will soon become much better than it is now, it needs to, as Dean states, we the consumer are demanding it......and it is a main reason why so many music lovers are going back to vinyl or discovering it again.
I am glad I enjoy it......music is suppse to be fun and vinyl is just that.
Happy New Year!
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 21:30 |
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Prog eras by association :-) I choose the early years but i dare say some will say the new is good too
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 21:30 |
BaldFriede wrote:
I must say I lose interest in prog. It just does not interest me anymore what new albums come out, with the odd exception. Jazz and classical music are much more interesting, in my opinion.. There is so much music to discover which expands my mind more than prog; why, completely exploring the works of Johann Sebastian Bach lone seems to be a task that would take a lifetime but would be much more fulfilling than wasting my time with so-called "new" prog albums which are more or less just an endless repetition of what has already been said.
What's more: I hate the way albums are being produced these days; they all sound extremely sterile. Each instrument clearly separated from the other. Some audio freaks may rejoice about that, but that is not what music sounds like when it is being played live. The instruments all mingle then; there are multiple reverberations and fractions of sound, and this is what makes music sound "alive"; so much nicer for my ears.
I know many of you will disagree and come up with examples of what I absolutely "have" to hear. And I know equally well that I will listen to it, shrug and say "so what?"
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As I have often stated in the past....this endless repetition you speak of technically has to do with musicians choosing what they feel is the right path for practice and not having a mind of their own to know that it is the wrong one. As part of practices most professional musicians develop someone else's vocabulary to add to their own. John Coltrane would be a good example. The main course of Coltrane's vocabulary is in his improvisation. This is okay within itself if you're Jeff Berlin and you transcribe a Coltrane solo for bass....but it is not very okay in the case of Jon Clark sounding too much like Alan Holdsworth. In Prog the course is taken to imitate formulas, time signatures, and vocals from the past. I find that ridiculous because many of these musicians could find their own voice in prog if they simply focused on different methods of writing.
With bands like the NICE and others from the early prog days....the idea was to experiment with rock music by combining elements from Jazz and Classical music. It was a way to progress with a new sound and style....but years later (even in the 70's) , some bands took the easy way out. There was too much emulation of what others had done and they stood on the shoulders of these people who first created the ideas like copy cats. They didn't need to! Obviously they were schooled musicians who were diverse. Sometimes it was un-intentional.....for example...hearing the style of ELP for a whole of 2 minutes on Curved Air's "Piece of Mind". I could say the same for Classical composers who emulated Johann Sebastian Bach....(and there are many of them)....and you can also sum my little issue up by stating that everything in music has been tried or written before and that it is only a natural and common occurance for one writer to emulate another blah, blah.....but then what happened to prog? Why did that aspect seem more extreme in prog than other serious styles of music? Is it because guitarists like Bob Fripp and Steve Howe laid a foundation and everyone else got lazy and copied it? Back in the 70's Rare Bird's "As Your Mind Flies By" sounded way too much like Emerson. Beggar's Opera and Trace were too much like Emerson. Graham Field was just as outstanding on keyboards as Francis Monkman and so why did Monkman choose to not sound exactly like Emerson? For me that is a mystery. Was it ABC DUNHILL records or Warner Brothers asking Greenslade and Field to attempt the ELP sound or did they simply feel more comfortable emulating him instead of trying something new. Fripp tried something new with LIZARD and obviously others like Pulsar, Harmonium, and Ange had originality with their ideas. So somewhere along the line players in prog decided to emulate more and neglect original creativity.
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Mellotron Storm
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 14626
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 21:26 |
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It's been a while Karl but i've got five reviews lined up then i'll take another break.I can't keep up with you young guys anymore.  |
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Mellotron Storm
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 14626
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 21:24 |
UMUR wrote:
It´s a bit up and down for me. I have periods where I absolutely love prog and listen to vast amounts of albums and then there are periods where I´m preoccupied with my other big passion: Metal. Those periods usually last a couple of years. Right now I´m in a metal phase and have been for a couple of years. |
Metal is my other passion as well Jonas and i'm about due for a few months of head banging.
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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silverpot
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 19 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 841
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 20:41 |
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The label isn't important to me as long as I appreciate the music.
I'm lurking around here to get some new, to me, artists to listen to, and so far, I'm not disappointed.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 20:41 |
Catcher10 wrote:
So you are complaining of some "wild noise" |
The needle is scraping away at the vinyl every time you listen to it even if you are perfectly careful and have a supreme turntable and needle.
Also you should know that when you are walking you are falling at the same time...
Edited by Slartibartfast - December 30 2011 at 20:42
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 20:37 |
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I think this is old news. Heavy compression, limited dynamic range and sterile production is so last decade (or even so last century) - modern producers and sound engineers (of Prog Rock at least) are listening to what the buying public are saying and have more or less dropped the bad habits that the digital studio would allow them to fall into. As with any emergent technology the temptation was to use all that the toys would provide, to place each instrument with precision, to tweek individual notes and to carefully manage the sound stage, and perhaps more importantly to show the studio owners that their investment was being used to its fullest. That was a necessary learning experience and now we are in a time of producers using these tools with more consideration - toning-back the excesses and creating a more organic feel to the production. Certainly over the past 3 or 4 years (digital studio) production has improved considerably.
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What?
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 18057
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Posted: December 30 2011 at 19:32 |
BaldFriede wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
What is "prog" anyways? .......Don't answer that!!!
I can see your points, but I generally don't get tired or bored of a genre, more so an artist or group of artists. So I then just move on to something different.
I can't get into classical music to the point where I feel I need to spend the next 5yrs trying to understand it...call me lame I guess, but I don't care for it that much.
Jazz is different, always has been for me, it will always be a work in progress, positive progress for sure. As far as music production and it sounding sterile...welcome to the age of digital files and the dreaded CD! I do expect in the next 5 yrs the CD will get better and so will digital music.
Since I am a vinyl aficionado, I don't suffer from your hearing dilema......and jazz should only be listened to on a turntable. It should be a crime to listen to A Love Supreme on a CD......
I would not take your issue as a bad thing, at least you are still exploring new music, the problem will be if you get tired of music in general! |
I actually think the sound difference between turntable records and CDs, apart from some unwanted wild noise which you get on turntable records after some time, is in the mind only.
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Well that is very true......my ears are connected to my head where my mind lives and it tells me its awesome!!
So you are complaining of some "wild noise" but yet you prefer live music (which we all do), and have no problem with people screaming or talking during a live show?.......or say at a classical concert recital hearing someone coughing the whole time? That to me is "wild noises".........
Anyhow........Happy New Year!
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Losing interest in prog
