Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18717
Posted: April 07 2014 at 09:58
I was referring to a blanket statement someone made that accused the general posting population here of ethnocentrism and imperialism regarding the progressive rock timeline, while all along ignoring the historical facts in the matter. Sorry if you felt like collateral damage.
Again, we should re-read the line ... it basically says that no one in Africa was good enough to play a Fender, or that no one in Argentina ever played a Ludwig set, or anyone in Australia ever saw a Teac! And in the old days in England they used to call the Africans and the Hindu's "savages"!
Maybe we need to have a few folks take a look at Eurock's old listings of musicians from around the world. And reconsider who is being close minded here and showing their xenophobic ethnocentrism in their comments a lot more than I who has lived in 3 continents!
Edited by moshkito - April 07 2014 at 10:09
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: April 07 2014 at 09:26
But that would be a bit like saying Larks or Red is too heavy/aggressive to be prog. Velvet Underground is just one of Can's influences. They were also interested in the work of composers like Steve Reich. I also don't necessarily see nihilism as incompatible with prog, far from it.
I wanted to ask you earlier about the 'origin' of the authors too. I am neither American nor British and am not willing to discount the importance of American pyschedelic rock as an influence. Can for instance cite Velvet Underground as one of their chief influences on the rock side of things.
This is possibly one of the main reasons I don't consider Krautrock to beProg. (and rest assured my idea of Prog is far greater and far reaching than just the English Symphonic brigade) That's not a qualitative judgement, after all, the Velvets are probably one of my favourite bands of all time but their oeuvre is not hewn from the same stuff as Prog i.e. it's more an avant garde, outlier, pared down, confrontational and visceral/nihilistic attitude that eschews the refinements of technical virtuosity and form. (and especially subject matter) Maybe Krautrock has more in common with Punk that we would care to admit? Say what you like about a band as hugely influential in so many disparate fields of music as the Velvets, but they are the antithesis of Prog non pareil. But yes, the influence of late 60's Psychedelia from whatever source, is clearly discernible in Krautrock. (Beefheart, Zappa, Seeds, Floyd, Jefferson Airplane, Arthur Brown, Doors, Hawkwind, Love etc) and can be traced right through to celebrated post punk mancunians the Fall.
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65864
Posted: April 06 2014 at 20:53
Dean wrote:
This is not a competition.
I'm sure there were some bands in many parts of the world that were making a noise that sounded like a hybrid of heavy metal and punk around the mid 80s, but unless those bands were in Seattle around 1987 when the term Grunge was first applied to that specific style of music then it wasn't Grunge.
Right, which was my point about rock-- Iggy and his Stooges were doing a sort of hard Garage
rock, with the probability that English musicians were being influenced
by that sound (an attempt to expand on Blues music). But really what they were doing was simply rock 'n
roll; a raw and primitive kind, but pure American rock 'n
roll. Not unlike the Beatles very early gigs in Germany and
England. We're talking loud, heavy stuff played with
abandon. That's what rock was to many young people because
it was fun and you could play it, unlike jazz, Pop Vocal, or classical.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13397
Posted: April 06 2014 at 17:52
Dean wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Dean wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Dean wrote:
mean-spir·it·ed adjective : feeling or showing a cruel desire to cause harm or pain
Oh, right. Must have been really cutting words then.
Dem roight ebil, it were.
Of course, accusing musicians and the musically-minded of racism or fascist nationalism when referring to historically verifiable points isn't at all mean-spirited. Fatuous, perhaps -- maybe even without context or utterly baseless -- but not mean-spirited.
Fortunately I didn't do that either.
No, you didn't. But then I wasn't referring to you.
Didn't think you were but wasn't sure.
I was referring to a blanket statement someone made that accused the general posting population here of ethnocentrism and imperialism regarding the progressive rock timeline, while all along ignoring the historical facts in the matter. Sorry if you felt like collateral damage.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: November 11 2005
Location: Manchester, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 9226
Posted: April 06 2014 at 17:17
I both like the simple 4/4 tempos in a prog rock song (yes, 4/4 can be prog too) and the much more elaborate song structures and tempos.
A great example of relatively simple structures is Psychotic Waltz's "Bleeding", their most mature release IMO. Mostly 4/4 tempos with some twists and turns and some songs including a structure of verse/refrain/verse x 2/refrain, which I found a nice twist.
Generally speaking the way more conventional structures within prog songs are used could make a big difference to my appreciation of the song/artist/album.
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: April 06 2014 at 16:52
The Dark Elf wrote:
Dean wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Dean wrote:
mean-spir·it·ed adjective : feeling or showing a cruel desire to cause harm or pain
Oh, right. Must have been really cutting words then.
Dem roight ebil, it were.
Of course, accusing musicians and the musically-minded of racism or fascist nationalism when referring to historically verifiable points isn't at all mean-spirited. Fatuous, perhaps -- maybe even without context or utterly baseless -- but not mean-spirited.
Fortunately I didn't do that either.
No, you didn't. But then I wasn't referring to you.
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13397
Posted: April 06 2014 at 16:50
Dean wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Dean wrote:
mean-spir·it·ed adjective : feeling or showing a cruel desire to cause harm or pain
Oh, right. Must have been really cutting words then.
Dem roight ebil, it were.
Of course, accusing musicians and the musically-minded of racism or fascist nationalism when referring to historically verifiable points isn't at all mean-spirited. Fatuous, perhaps -- maybe even without context or utterly baseless -- but not mean-spirited.
Fortunately I didn't do that either.
No, you didn't. But then I wasn't referring to you.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: June 03 2010
Location: Mississippi
Status: Offline
Points: 98
Posted: April 06 2014 at 16:19
Now that this went way off topic, here's a response to the first post...
I'd like to hear more classical forms in prog rock. Like sonata, theme-and-variations, rondo, etc. A lot of what I hear is either extended verse-chorus song forms or completely free forms. Those are fine and a lot of great music's been made with them, but there's a lot of possibilities to explore with classical forms.
You could argue that Yes's "Close to the Edge" is either a modified sonata or an extended song form. I've also seen King Crimson's "Starless" and "Larks Pt. 1" explained as a sonata. I can't think of any rondos right off hand unless I count stuff in ABA form. And I don't know how to fit a fugue to rock music...
Vocal music tends to use standard song forms regardless of song length, and that's even true in a lot of prog rock. For all the talk about "songs without choruses", I hear a lot of choruses in prog rock songs. Which is fine with me - I like a LOT of these songs. But if you want to get away from that, especially if you're doing instrumental music, the classical world's come up with a lot of ideas for forms for instrumental music.
As for how sonata form and song form can be a lot alike:
Standard sonata: Exposition (two themes) - Exposition repeat (two themes again) - Development - Recapitulation
Song form (common variant) - Verse/chorus - Verse/chorus - Bridge - Verse/chorus
The main difference is the development section works with the melodies in the exposition, but most bridges introduce new melodies.
But there's also a lot of benefit to surprise. That's one of my favorite things about prog rock - I never know what's going to happen next. I listen to some classic jazz, and one thing that bugs me is how the form is identical for most pieces. Everything's a theme-and-variations set up - main melody, everybody solos, main melody again, and end. Which works well for a lot of pieces, but there's no sense of surprise. There's a few exceptions but not many.
I know this is confusing and I contradicted myself a bunch, but this topic interests me a lot.
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: April 06 2014 at 12:52
The Dark Elf wrote:
Dean wrote:
mean-spir·it·ed adjective : feeling or showing a cruel desire to cause harm or pain
Oh, right. Must have been really cutting words then.
Dem roight ebil, it were.
Of course, accusing musicians and the musically-minded of racism or fascist nationalism when referring to historically verifiable points isn't at all mean-spirited. Fatuous, perhaps -- maybe even without context or utterly baseless -- but not mean-spirited.
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13397
Posted: April 06 2014 at 12:46
Dean wrote:
mean-spir·it·ed adjective : feeling or showing a cruel desire to cause harm or pain
Oh, right. Must have been really cutting words then.
Dem roight ebil, it were.
Of course, accusing musicians and the musically-minded of racism or fascist nationalism when referring to historically verifiable points isn't at all mean-spirited. Fatuous, perhaps -- maybe even without context or utterly baseless -- but not mean-spirited.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18717
Posted: April 06 2014 at 10:23
ExittheLemming wrote:
...
I do accept that musical developments in countries outside England would have been pivotal in the subsequent developments and directions of Prog Rock but I still believe the consensus view that it's origins are predominantly from English culture. The following authors also arrive at the same conclusion and do attempt with varying degrees of success, to explain the reasons from a cultural, social and economic perspective: ...
The concern is that you are confusing the issue further, in my book. The fact, is that of all the countries in the western world both America and England had the strongest interest in it, and went after it. Europe came right behind, although they were big in short wave in the old days.
As such, the market would help American and Brittish writers a lot more than someone from Italy, or Japan. And, of course, right away you have someone knowing all the LOCAL bands, but they have never heard (enough) of the other material, enough to appreciate a similar feeling and work.
In America, this is far worse, because America is like, 5 different countries let's say, and each one has their likes and dislikes, and people in NY have a tendency to laugh and ignore everyone in SF and people in SF have a tendency to think that NY'rs are stuffy and not cool, or hip! It extends to progressive and any other music, but NY laughts at you because they sell more than SF! And the NY Times is bigger than the SF Chronicle, that is now all but dead because of a rich turkey, whose reign started in the days of Orson Welles! (Citizen Kane).
Many other countries did not have this freedom of the arts and press and radio to be able to show you something different. We're lucky that these two countries had the media resources to make this work, because if they didn't it would be just alike some progressive band from Podunk, Switzerland that none of us give a cahoot about because we think it sounds like Genesis, and they did their thing 3 years before Genesis! That's my concern, and what I call "our own" ignorance.
The arts, and ALL the arts, existed all over the world, not just London and NY and then SF and Paris, and this is the part that we're not recognizing. For PROGRESSIVE to make sense, you will have to INCLUDE those artistic movements, or it will simply die and dissipate into just another fan band, and lose it's value in time! You haven't read many articles about the top ten in 1914, have you?
Edited by moshkito - April 06 2014 at 10:27
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18717
Posted: April 06 2014 at 10:08
rogerthat wrote:
...
Er, thank you very much. I do know that British and English are not the same thing. I however used the word British because 'Canadian' is clearly excluded from 'American' while English is not likewise excluded from British, it is a subset as is Scottish. Moving on...
...
It's not meant to sound bad at all, despite Dean's mean spirited comment.
When a language is not your original language, when you are writing, sometimes the words don't show up, and it has a tendency to throw things off! I mean ... c'mon ... my Brittish (got it right this time!) collection of music is 40% of my total number of records and cd's! And the number of bands I list all the time from all over that continent all the time that I like, is more than any other, maybe with the exception of Germany, and even then, it's only the 70's stuff in Germany!
But I get really tired of articles and posts and what not continually saying that ELP, Genesis and bruhaha invented progressive music, when it was a world wide event in music. Paris, for example, had just as good and weirder music than KC's first, but no one here is going to look at that list and give it a serious notion! Is it because the French and the Brittish (now that sounds wrong!!!), fought each other for so many years? And Italy had a very strong connection to classical music, that helped develop their own rock music and eventually "progressive". But here, nooooooooo, it has to be all this and that because they are the number one!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: April 06 2014 at 09:55
pfft! We should avoid the use of words "artists" and "music" ... far too restrictive and don't even begin to describe the time-varying compression of air molecules that they create.
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18717
Posted: April 06 2014 at 09:50
verslibre wrote:
Art Rock = traditional structuring, tweaked from "1" to "11" (Symph, etc.)
Progressive Rock = anything goes (RIO/Avant, etc.)
...
Too much of this, was defined/designed wayyyyyyyyyyyy after the fact and the music. I tend to ignore those labels, because many of them don't even describe the artists at all, specially when some of them do more than one thing!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: April 06 2014 at 09:44
This is not a competition.
I'm sure there were some bands in many parts of the world that were making a noise that sounded like a hybrid of heavy metal and punk around the mid 80s, but unless those bands were in Seattle around 1987 when the term Grunge was first applied to that specific style of music then it wasn't Grunge.
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
Posted: April 06 2014 at 09:33
rogerthat wrote:
Wasn't there some Italian band that released a very developed prog album in 1969? I can't recall the name offhand.
I do not know, but I can bet in hard cash that the album was recorded in Italian language; that Italians were singing in their own language made that authencity; the same thing is with Yugoslavian prog bands, or with Kosmische Musik which used "stylized" English.
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
Posted: April 06 2014 at 08:17
This is the very first ex-Yugoslavian progressive rock epic , recorded by INDEXI in 1969.
I think it's well structured & longer than 10 minutes prog song which actually have nothing to do with British progresive rock movement (scene); INDEXI were one of the representatives of authentic Yugoslavian prog.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
This page was generated in 0.119 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Prog Song Structure
Topic Options
