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Why is Tull's "A Passion Play" rated so low?

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Snicolette View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2019 at 11:26
Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2019 at 12:02
It’s boring and dull
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Barbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2019 at 12:16
Originally posted by Barbu Barbu wrote:

Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

got to hear the whole thing on the way, as it was a bit of a drive.....June 15, 1973

^

I too perfectly remember my first APP hearing: in an hotel room on a Sunday afternoon, May 22 1994. (lol)

(I'll be back on that soon)


Saturday, May 21, 1994. A bunch of friends drove to the big city for some action and a good time.
The next morning we went downtown, direction 'the big music shop' (berri-uqam). At the time I was familiar with only two Tull records (A little Light Music & Thick as a Brick), I was enjoying them both greatly and decided it was a good opportunity to get some more.
In less than an hour I spent $500 (a small fortune for me at the time) on a good fifteen Tull studio albums + the 25th anniversary 4 cd box set.
Back at the hotel, while some were taking a nap, I pick up A Passion Play on the pile, headed for the bathroom and locked the door.
I slowly unwrapped it with trembling hands...maaan - one song/45 minutes, Thick as a Brick part 2 I thought with a sense of trepidation.
I put the cd in the discman, sat back comfortably, lit up a cigarette and pressed play:

Heartbeat...full band intro with (yuk) saxophone then piano and that strange singing style (hmmm?), full band again and more sax (wtf! where's the damn flute?).
I vomited for the first time during 'The Hare' and before the end of side 2 I was sobbing like a baby.

When I came out three quarters of an hour later, my girlfriend gave me a look and said: 'Are you feeling alright? you look rather pale'.
'It's okay', I said, 'everything's right'. Man, it was not since I had the impression that I had just threw five hundred bucks
out of the hotel room window. I only hope that they're not all horrible like this, I thought.

Around 7:30pm the same day we were all seated in the parterre at the Montréal Olympic Stadium sharing a joint and when the first notes of
'Astronomy Domine' started, that first repulsive A Passion Play experience was just a vague and distant memory.

Edited by Barbu - October 03 2019 at 13:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2019 at 12:22
The Story Of The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles 

I would also give it a 5. I suppose it's not as varied/exciting/ballsy as TAAB, but its every bit as good. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rednight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2019 at 13:11
Originally posted by Dervish D Dervish D wrote:

I think its great. Knew it was great first time I heard it and I still listen to it today. It helped when I saw it performed in Nashville. Still one of the best concerts I have ever been to...
It WAS my first concert, providing me a very cherished memory of how great that rendition of the band was. The album itself was beautifully designed with its faux playbill that's still good for a laugh. The music is densely constructed with a satisfying segue around every corner. Not bad for a concept album that was thrown together on a whim after a troublesome previous project was abandoned.
"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2019 at 14:45
Originally posted by Barbu Barbu wrote:

Originally posted by Barbu Barbu wrote:

Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

got to hear the whole thing on the way, as it was a bit of a drive.....June 15, 1973

^

I too perfectly remember my first APP hearing: in an hotel room on a Sunday afternoon, May 22 1994. (lol)

(I'll be back on that soon)


Saturday, May 21, 1994. A bunch of friends drove to the big city for some action and a good time.
The next morning we went downtown, direction 'the big music shop' (berri-uqam). At the time I was familiar with only two Tull records (A little Light Music & Thick as a Brick), I was enjoying them both greatly and decided it was a good opportunity to get some more.
In less than an hour I spent $500 (a small fortune for me at the time) on a good fifteen Tull studio albums + the 25th anniversary 4 cd box set.
Back at the hotel, while some were taking a nap, I pick up A Passion Play on the pile, headed for the bathroom and locked the door.
I slowly unwrapped it with trembling hands...maaan - one song/45 minutes, Thick as a Brick part 2 I thought with a sense of trepidation.
I put the cd in the discman, sat back comfortably, lit up a cigarette and pressed play:

Heartbeat...full band intro with (yuk) saxophone then piano and that strange singing style (hmmm?), full band again and more sax (wtf! where's the damn flute?).
I vomited for the first time during 'The Hare' and before the end of side 2 I was sobbing like a baby.

When I came out three quarters of an hour later, my girlfriend gave me a look and said: 'Are you feeling alright? you look rather pale'.
'It's okay', I said, 'everything's right'. Man, it was not since I had the impression that I had just threw five hundred bucks
out of the hotel room window. I only hope that they're not all horrible like this, I thought.

Around 7:30pm the same day we were all seated in the parterre at the Montréal Olympic Stadium sharing a joint and when the first notes of
'Astronomy Domine' started, that first repulsive A Passion Play experience was just a vague and distant memory.

I commend you on your bravery and also for coming around to listen again, and to Tull and, obviously, have a fondness for the band.  :)  Funny the perspectives of other generations, I find it wonderful that there are so many that didn't grow up with it that have discovered it on their own, delved on their own and found what they enjoy, that takes a different kind of interest than it's being handed to you on a silver (well, usually, black) platter over the current airwaves (or netwaves or whatever, these days).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2019 at 17:34
^
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2019 at 17:42
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

As for that JT, only heard it once all the way through, and I don't know it well enough to have much of an opinion.

You should get a physical copy and give it a fair chance. Trust me, brother, it's a monument of progressive music and it could become as important to you as is Pawn Hearts. I will always prefer Thick as a Brick but I'll never argue with somebody who's saying that A Passion Play is the better of the two.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2019 at 18:02
Why are any exceedlngly challenging masterpieces rated low? Because there seems to be a threshold of tolerance for many who don't have the ambition to accept the challenge of what the album has to offer. 

Did the complexities of prog have to stop in 1973 as the peak year? Of course not, but due to the rift in the few that wanted to create these perceived pompous overweening difficult listens and those who were paying the bills by purchasing the music, it seems to have hit a brick wall. 

5 star album for me too but i've paid my dues in working my way up to totally getting where the album is going. Yeah, there are some albums that are just bad and complex doesn't necessarily mean good but in the case of "Passion Play," i'm a huge fan. In fact i'm gonna listen to it right now!!!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 00:20
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

because it's just an opinion.
...

But that's like saying that someone's opinion is more important than yours ... specially when it has "numbers" behind it suggesting a falsehood that was fabricated by commercial interests to help sell their product ... something that we continually refuse to see and then realize how bad it can be to most arts, in general.

The opinion is NOT THE ART.

The fan is NOT THE ART.

So, why would "opinion" matter to anyone ... SPECIALLY IN A PROGRESSIVE BOARD ABOUT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!

The irony hurts!
 

He was asking why the rating is low not whether anyones opinion is valid. Clearly you don't believe in opinion but the guy who started the thread does. Stop telling people what they should or not think. You are not the thought police. I am fed up with you to be honest. You are a monstrous pain in the butt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 01:38
Incidentaly. Does a prog album played in a sealed bunker with nobody in that bunker, have a nominal (quantum) rating? I think it does...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 06:11
Why is it rated so low? Because it sucks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 07:00
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

...
Different brains process information differently, one is not just hearing music, one processes it, and each person will process it a little differently (as well as variance in hearing), so in a sense, even if we are listening to the same recording, we are not "hearing" the same music. So I would say that art in a sense is the interactive process, or art is, or art happens at the intersection/ interstice, the relationship between the art and the admirer.
...

This is where the "definition" of the word ART is a problem. And then, how do we make out who fits and doesn't fit.

I tend to look at the complete history of their work ... not just one album, mind you ... before I consider them an artist, and in this sense, yes, JT fits, even if a lot of his music was more radio inclined (even when FM was almost dead in America!!!), than otherwise, and sometimes (this is just me -- but I have not kept up with IA or JT ... there are way too many others out there doing better NOW!), this is not for my tastes ... I have that feeling that because his "concept" albums (PP/Minstrel) originally did not do as well, and the critics did not like it compared to Aqualung, that it took a little out of Ian, enough to come back with songs for the radio ... which got played enough to sell some, but it was not the monster that his early albums had been.

Anyone, can make a piece of music ... anyone can paint a picture ... anyone can write a novel ... but doing so consistently is another story ... and this is where I have an issue ... is Stephen King an artist even though I do not care for his material or work? I have to take my "personal" view away ... and this is important ... and then go ... it is better than a lot of pulp fiction, even if a lot of it is ... mostly what appears to be just weird twists and turns to create a story, and further take it somewhere else.

So in this sense, a lot of bands, JT included, have to have the appreciation for their ART, even if it is not perfect, and I will tend to be a bit more detailed on new things, and hope that they can also come back strong, so to "fortify" their ability and standing ... the obvious question would be ... as was the case with Mozart ... how many pieces are you going to see, before you realize that this guy is strong and talented?

My only concern, again, is that we tend to believe this "top ten" stuff and in effect turn off some listeners to anything else by that artist ... and I don't think that's fair ... I have listened to all the newer stuff by Dream Theater, and although I did not deem it necessary to review ... I'm not going to doubt their ability to put something together, even if it seems a bit duplicated for my tastes ... like saying that you and I do not feel like that about Tchaikovsky or Beethoven beyond the pieces that we know ... in fact, sometimes you can tell right off the bat who is who ... 

But I am not sure that the "listener" has anything to do with the work itself ... you see ... Stephen King writes off his "movie mind" (for lack of a better description), just as Mozart did off his movie mind (nicely pre-viewed in the well known movie!), just as Huxley kept a diary and track of his "inner" experiences to put together an incredible amount of literature ... to many of these, it is not about the "public" ... maybe their wife/friend and what not, but I doubt that is a whole lot beyond that except on some occasions.

The main problem with publicity and the media is that it thinks it has a right to make a decision, and one of these days, as artist is going to hang himself/herself in a concert to make their point ... I am not here to write for you ... and you can not stop me from being myself and instead be your slave! Get fudged! And we're still going to sit there and be sordid and upset that someone had the guts to take us down a step that should have been done earlier ... but that person/artist didn't know any better, as is the case with many of these women out there ... exposing something they are not, and in some cases, trying to be a teenager, when they are no longer one! And no one gets that it's a lie disguised in publicity!

It's just too weird ... and one of the reasons why I have such a disdain for "top ten" ... heck I got to see FM radio come up, and then 6 years later the station was bought by Texaco and a year later ... it was all dots and you could not play blah and blah from 8 to 8 kind of thing and no weird stuff before midnight so we don't "alienate" the audience ... never mind that we're playing the same ten songs each hour! Let's now even consider, discuss what happened to KMET in Los Angeles ... the greatest crime that the FCC has ever committed and allowed to happen ... on a station that was very highly rated because they ... whatevahhhh!!!

When you have seen those kinds of things, you remember them ... but too many folks here, have no idea what all this meant, and how it hurt the "progressive scene" that many think DIED in the 80's ... it didn't die ... it just got "censored" as I like to call it, and we bought into it and NEVER EVER said anything about it like good boys and girls!

How much sicker is that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 08:00
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


Why is it rated so low? Because it sucks.

I haven't heard the music, but somehow I think I must obtain a copy and give it a spin..mind you since i'm not a massive fan of the saxophone, perhaps that may put me off...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 08:07
I received it as a member of the Columbia Record Club as the "Selection of the Month" when it first came out. I had not been a Tull fan though I liked some of their songs, but Passion Play mesmerized me for days. I couldn't figure out why it was that such an intricately crafted and obviously virtuosic musical experience was so difficult to get into! I finally gave up and have felt the exact same each and every time I have returned to it. The music or engineering or something is too dense and the story is virtually inaccessible because it's so colloquially Brit-lit and, therefore, meaningless to an unsympathetic American like me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 10:02
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Why is it rated so low? Because it sucks.

Don't hold back...tell us how you really feel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rednight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 11:54
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:


I haven't heard the music, but somehow I think I must obtain a copy and give it a spin..mind you since i'm not a massive fan of the saxophone, perhaps that may put me off...[/QUOTE] Those sopranino saxophones really livened things up though.
"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 15:50
It’s not smothered in dated mellotron and full of melody. How can it be rated by proggers?
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BarryGlibb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 17:56
The first time I heard APP it left me cold.

The second time I listened to it... I was lukewarm in my affection.

The 3rd time I concentrated and actually listened to it I was "coming around".

At about 10 listens, I was fully converted.

Some 46 years later I still discover instrumental sections in the layers on music that I wasn't aware of before.

From dud (initial listenings) to masterpiece (after ~10 listenings).

Be patient.


Edited by BarryGlibb - October 04 2019 at 17:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 18:53
I haven't heard it in a while but it's even more of a hardcore prog album than TAAB. Very dense. CTTE is to TAAB what Tales is to APP imo. It's still good but like tales takes a while to digest.
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