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Why is Tull's "A Passion Play" rated so low?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2019 at 13:26
Handbags at dawn....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2019 at 12:16
^I like DE's interesting explanation of the piece. I know little more of mystery plays than their existence, but the point is... I don't listen to music on an intellectual level, with the attitude of those pedantic self-declared art lovers who are used to frequent musea and talk pseudo-exalted poppycock about what they see... never did and never will. So here I prefer to take my due place among those consuming plebeians and stay in tune with my questionable level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2019 at 10:45
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

It's a three star album in my book. Some fine moments, but as a whole rather incoherent to my ears. It was released in the middle of a decline with the masterpiece TaaB as the high and the disappointing Warchild as a low.

The big issue here is, as DE showed, the album is only as good as one is educated and knowledgeable, to appreciate what Ian did on this album, which was against all the rock anything ideas, and he stuck to the "idea" and "concept" beautifully ... and this is the part that most folks here can not handle ... they need their "concept to be given with breakfast, lunch dinner and a _____________ in other words they have to be TOLD that this is what they are about ... its exactly the same thing with the "Christian" rock bands, many of which have no idea what the whole thing means and all they can do is use a quote frivolously.

PROGRESSIVE MUSIC, made a serious attempt to ELEVATE the quality of the music, and there are a lot of GREAT examples out there, but it only takes an idiot like RW to put down the work of his band, to get fans to think that the whole thing was just a laundry list and had nothing to do with anything else. For fans, even here, this is perfect, of course ... because ... how dare an artist try to be smarter and more educated than their audience, whose level is quite questionable many times.

It's a serious problem in America and it got worse since the Reagan/Bush days when they began cutting off completely any moneys for schools to do the arts ... and what you got now is people that believe their top ten, because they have never seen, studied or appreciated something else ...

PP is only rated low by those that won't make the effort to find out what the whole thing is about ... plain and simple! Where do you stand?
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2019 at 03:11
It's a three star album in my book. Some fine moments, but as a whole rather incoherent to my ears. It was released in the middle of a decline with the masterpiece TaaB as the high and the disappointing Warchild as a low.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2019 at 00:32
The Wilson remix is just another classic box for tull. The extra minute is cool and the extras such as Left right, Audition, Big top sound great. A strong hour worth of tunes. I don't really bother about the early versions that made Passion and Warchild albums though.
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 20:28
Hi,

^^^^^^ Very nice and thank you DE
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 19:58
For a rock album, it is actually quite well-researched and a brilliant modernized rendition of the Passion Plays (better referred to as Mystery Plays) of the late Middle-Ages/early Tudor epoch, when such "Morality Plays" would be seen in town streets and squares prior to the playhouses and actual dramas and comedies of Elizabethan England. Springing originally from Easter Pageants, where indeed the devil and the Resurrection were integral parts of "Passion Plays", the Mystery/Morality Plays expanded on the theme to include prostitutes, criminals and various other reprobates who eventually were "saved" by divine intervention. 

It would be rude of me to say that perhaps the subject matter and presentation is well above a few folks' heads here, but it is what it is, even if you don't quite get it; yet as a Medievalist I have always found the album fascinating. Rather than a Renaissance Faire approximation of early music, Ian Anderson instead takes the actual bones of the original play concept and gives it a modern take, with modern, progressive music, rather than lute and tabor mimicry. Even the name "Ronnie Pilgrim" is a nod to early English narrative poetry featuring the "Everyman" as an allegorical character (such as Langland's The Vision of Piers Plowman), and his journey from death to rebirth is an ironic twist on the crucifixion and resurrection of the early Passion Plays.

"The Story Of The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles" rather than being misjudged as some bizarre oddity plopped in the mid-section of the album by modern critics is actually a fair representation of a Mystery Play's Interlude, a break in the more serious play that often featured a humorous or absurd fable to keep the commoners and groundlings from drifting off from the heavier sermonizing.

That A Passion Play ends not in the Lord's Resurrection but Ronnie Pilgrim's reincarnation is another ironic twist and a punch to the gut of the religiosity Ian Anderson loved to skewer.

A splendid album, well worth a serious listen. Particularly if you take the whole in context and realize this release was far beyond the trite and rehashed hedonism of most rock albums in 1973.  


Edited by The Dark Elf - October 06 2019 at 03:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 18:53
I haven't heard it in a while but it's even more of a hardcore prog album than TAAB. Very dense. CTTE is to TAAB what Tales is to APP imo. It's still good but like tales takes a while to digest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BarryGlibb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 17:56
The first time I heard APP it left me cold.

The second time I listened to it... I was lukewarm in my affection.

The 3rd time I concentrated and actually listened to it I was "coming around".

At about 10 listens, I was fully converted.

Some 46 years later I still discover instrumental sections in the layers on music that I wasn't aware of before.

From dud (initial listenings) to masterpiece (after ~10 listenings).

Be patient.


Edited by BarryGlibb - October 04 2019 at 17:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 15:50
It’s not smothered in dated mellotron and full of melody. How can it be rated by proggers?
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rednight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 11:54
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:


I haven't heard the music, but somehow I think I must obtain a copy and give it a spin..mind you since i'm not a massive fan of the saxophone, perhaps that may put me off...[/QUOTE] Those sopranino saxophones really livened things up though.
"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 10:02
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Why is it rated so low? Because it sucks.

Don't hold back...tell us how you really feel.
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 08:07
I received it as a member of the Columbia Record Club as the "Selection of the Month" when it first came out. I had not been a Tull fan though I liked some of their songs, but Passion Play mesmerized me for days. I couldn't figure out why it was that such an intricately crafted and obviously virtuosic musical experience was so difficult to get into! I finally gave up and have felt the exact same each and every time I have returned to it. The music or engineering or something is too dense and the story is virtually inaccessible because it's so colloquially Brit-lit and, therefore, meaningless to an unsympathetic American like me. 
Drew Fisher
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 08:00
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


Why is it rated so low? Because it sucks.

I haven't heard the music, but somehow I think I must obtain a copy and give it a spin..mind you since i'm not a massive fan of the saxophone, perhaps that may put me off...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 07:00
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

...
Different brains process information differently, one is not just hearing music, one processes it, and each person will process it a little differently (as well as variance in hearing), so in a sense, even if we are listening to the same recording, we are not "hearing" the same music. So I would say that art in a sense is the interactive process, or art is, or art happens at the intersection/ interstice, the relationship between the art and the admirer.
...

This is where the "definition" of the word ART is a problem. And then, how do we make out who fits and doesn't fit.

I tend to look at the complete history of their work ... not just one album, mind you ... before I consider them an artist, and in this sense, yes, JT fits, even if a lot of his music was more radio inclined (even when FM was almost dead in America!!!), than otherwise, and sometimes (this is just me -- but I have not kept up with IA or JT ... there are way too many others out there doing better NOW!), this is not for my tastes ... I have that feeling that because his "concept" albums (PP/Minstrel) originally did not do as well, and the critics did not like it compared to Aqualung, that it took a little out of Ian, enough to come back with songs for the radio ... which got played enough to sell some, but it was not the monster that his early albums had been.

Anyone, can make a piece of music ... anyone can paint a picture ... anyone can write a novel ... but doing so consistently is another story ... and this is where I have an issue ... is Stephen King an artist even though I do not care for his material or work? I have to take my "personal" view away ... and this is important ... and then go ... it is better than a lot of pulp fiction, even if a lot of it is ... mostly what appears to be just weird twists and turns to create a story, and further take it somewhere else.

So in this sense, a lot of bands, JT included, have to have the appreciation for their ART, even if it is not perfect, and I will tend to be a bit more detailed on new things, and hope that they can also come back strong, so to "fortify" their ability and standing ... the obvious question would be ... as was the case with Mozart ... how many pieces are you going to see, before you realize that this guy is strong and talented?

My only concern, again, is that we tend to believe this "top ten" stuff and in effect turn off some listeners to anything else by that artist ... and I don't think that's fair ... I have listened to all the newer stuff by Dream Theater, and although I did not deem it necessary to review ... I'm not going to doubt their ability to put something together, even if it seems a bit duplicated for my tastes ... like saying that you and I do not feel like that about Tchaikovsky or Beethoven beyond the pieces that we know ... in fact, sometimes you can tell right off the bat who is who ... 

But I am not sure that the "listener" has anything to do with the work itself ... you see ... Stephen King writes off his "movie mind" (for lack of a better description), just as Mozart did off his movie mind (nicely pre-viewed in the well known movie!), just as Huxley kept a diary and track of his "inner" experiences to put together an incredible amount of literature ... to many of these, it is not about the "public" ... maybe their wife/friend and what not, but I doubt that is a whole lot beyond that except on some occasions.

The main problem with publicity and the media is that it thinks it has a right to make a decision, and one of these days, as artist is going to hang himself/herself in a concert to make their point ... I am not here to write for you ... and you can not stop me from being myself and instead be your slave! Get fudged! And we're still going to sit there and be sordid and upset that someone had the guts to take us down a step that should have been done earlier ... but that person/artist didn't know any better, as is the case with many of these women out there ... exposing something they are not, and in some cases, trying to be a teenager, when they are no longer one! And no one gets that it's a lie disguised in publicity!

It's just too weird ... and one of the reasons why I have such a disdain for "top ten" ... heck I got to see FM radio come up, and then 6 years later the station was bought by Texaco and a year later ... it was all dots and you could not play blah and blah from 8 to 8 kind of thing and no weird stuff before midnight so we don't "alienate" the audience ... never mind that we're playing the same ten songs each hour! Let's now even consider, discuss what happened to KMET in Los Angeles ... the greatest crime that the FCC has ever committed and allowed to happen ... on a station that was very highly rated because they ... whatevahhhh!!!

When you have seen those kinds of things, you remember them ... but too many folks here, have no idea what all this meant, and how it hurt the "progressive scene" that many think DIED in the 80's ... it didn't die ... it just got "censored" as I like to call it, and we bought into it and NEVER EVER said anything about it like good boys and girls!

How much sicker is that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 06:11
Why is it rated so low? Because it sucks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 01:38
Incidentaly. Does a prog album played in a sealed bunker with nobody in that bunker, have a nominal (quantum) rating? I think it does...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2019 at 00:20
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

because it's just an opinion.
...

But that's like saying that someone's opinion is more important than yours ... specially when it has "numbers" behind it suggesting a falsehood that was fabricated by commercial interests to help sell their product ... something that we continually refuse to see and then realize how bad it can be to most arts, in general.

The opinion is NOT THE ART.

The fan is NOT THE ART.

So, why would "opinion" matter to anyone ... SPECIALLY IN A PROGRESSIVE BOARD ABOUT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!

The irony hurts!
 

He was asking why the rating is low not whether anyones opinion is valid. Clearly you don't believe in opinion but the guy who started the thread does. Stop telling people what they should or not think. You are not the thought police. I am fed up with you to be honest. You are a monstrous pain in the butt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2019 at 18:02
Why are any exceedlngly challenging masterpieces rated low? Because there seems to be a threshold of tolerance for many who don't have the ambition to accept the challenge of what the album has to offer. 

Did the complexities of prog have to stop in 1973 as the peak year? Of course not, but due to the rift in the few that wanted to create these perceived pompous overweening difficult listens and those who were paying the bills by purchasing the music, it seems to have hit a brick wall. 

5 star album for me too but i've paid my dues in working my way up to totally getting where the album is going. Yeah, there are some albums that are just bad and complex doesn't necessarily mean good but in the case of "Passion Play," i'm a huge fan. In fact i'm gonna listen to it right now!!!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2019 at 17:42
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

As for that JT, only heard it once all the way through, and I don't know it well enough to have much of an opinion.

You should get a physical copy and give it a fair chance. Trust me, brother, it's a monument of progressive music and it could become as important to you as is Pawn Hearts. I will always prefer Thick as a Brick but I'll never argue with somebody who's saying that A Passion Play is the better of the two.
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