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Why is Tull's "A Passion Play" rated so low?
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someone_else View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Sandro28grizz Sandro28grizz wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

It's a three star album in my book. Some fine moments, but as a whole rather incoherent to my ears. It was released in the middle of a decline with the masterpiece TaaB as the high and the disappointing Warchild as a low.

The ironic thing is that WarChild would not likely not turned out the way it did if not for the shelling that APP took in the press. It's well-known that Ian took the criticism of APP to heart, and so made sure the next album was the polar opposite. If APP was rated highly by the critics of the day, it's likely we would not have gotten anything close to WarChild as we know it.
 

Well, this makes obvious that Ian should have done his own way instead of giving an ear to the critics.
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^ Greg, you're wrong to say I'm wrong but I'll defend you're right to say I'm wrong when you're wrong.

Edited by SteveG - October 12 2019 at 14:16
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

If the popular expectation of prog is a boring meandering mess, then APP should be ranked higher.

You're wrong, of course. But I will defend your right to be wrong. Because wrong opinions are the building blocks of Prog Archives. It's what has made this site what it is. 
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If the popular expectation of prog is a boring meandering mess, then APP should be ranked higher.
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Originally posted by Sandro28grizz Sandro28grizz wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

It's a three star album in my book. Some fine moments, but as a whole rather incoherent to my ears. It was released in the middle of a decline with the masterpiece TaaB as the high and the disappointing Warchild as a low.


The ironic thing is that WarChild would not likely not turned out the way it did if not for the shelling that APP took in the press. It's well-known that Ian took the criticism of APP to heart, and so made sure the next album was the polar opposite. If APP was rated highly by the critics of the day, it's likely we would not have gotten anything close to WarChild as we know it.


Yeah it would have been more of a prog rock album. Could have been a double album but the band planned to do two albums plus the orchestral score. Imagine the movie came out with 3 albums worth of tunes. John Cleese was involved too
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

For a rock album, it is actually quite well-researched and a brilliant modernized rendition of the Passion Plays (better referred to as Mystery Plays) of the late Middle-Ages/early Tudor epoch, when such "Morality Plays" would be seen in town streets and squares prior to the playhouses and actual dramas and comedies of Elizabethan England. Springing originally from Easter Pageants, where indeed the devil and the Resurrection were integral parts of "Passion Plays", the Mystery/Morality Plays expanded on the theme to include prostitutes, criminals and various other reprobates who eventually were "saved" by divine intervention. 

It would be rude of me to say that perhaps the subject matter and presentation is well above a few folks' heads here, but it is what it is, even if you don't quite get it; yet as a Medievalist I have always found the album fascinating. Rather than a Renaissance Faire approximation of early music, Ian Anderson instead takes the actual bones of the original play concept and gives it a modern take, with modern, progressive music, rather than lute and tabor mimicry. Even the name "Ronnie Pilgrim" is a nod to early English narrative poetry featuring the "Everyman" as an allegorical character (such as Langland's The Vision of Piers Plowman), and his journey from death to rebirth is an ironic twist on the crucifixion and resurrection of the early Passion Plays.

"The Story Of The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles" rather than being misjudged as some bizarre oddity plopped in the mid-section of the album by modern critics is actually a fair representation of a Mystery Play's Interlude, a break in the more serious play that often featured a humorous or absurd fable to keep the commoners and groundlings from drifting off from the heavier sermonizing.

That A Passion Play ends not in the Lord's Resurrection but Ronnie Pilgrim's reincarnation is another ironic twist and a punch to the gut of the religiosity Ian Anderson loved to skewer.

A splendid album, well worth a serious listen. Particularly if you take the whole in context and realize this release was far beyond the trite and rehashed hedonism of most rock albums in 1973.  

Interesting post. Never knew anything about medieval "mystery plays" but always loved this album. 

You wouldn't happen to be Morthoron from the Tolkien boards, would you? Your avatar and general way of posting reminds me of him.
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Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

It's a three star album in my book. Some fine moments, but as a whole rather incoherent to my ears. It was released in the middle of a decline with the masterpiece TaaB as the high and the disappointing Warchild as a low.

The ironic thing is that WarChild would not likely not turned out the way it did if not for the shelling that APP took in the press. It's well-known that Ian took the criticism of APP to heart, and so made sure the next album was the polar opposite. If APP was rated highly by the critics of the day, it's likely we would not have gotten anything close to WarChild as we know it.
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Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

I hadn’t listened to APP in a long time. I just did. I warmed up to it a bit. It had good stretches and bad stretches. It was definitely not cohesive. Poorly thought out. The cohesion in TAAB is far superior. TAAB is not a masterpiece. Aqualung is.



See, I can sort of agree with you, to my ears APP has a few transitions that seem a bit abrupt (mostly very early on), but for the most part it makes sense to me. I could say the same about TAAB though, there are a few clunky stop-start transitions in there as well, I don't really see how TAAB is so much better than APP.
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

4 stars (4.02) is not a bad/low rating...

I specifically said that I was not talking about the site rating ( I did not even know what the number rating was tbh), rather the fact that the album has so many detractors, even among prog fans.
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dr prog View Drop Down
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The albums remix sets are rated 4.5 star average. The 12th is coming out next week. That’s where Tull stand. 9/10 band equals best band of the 70s
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

again 4.02 is NOT a low rating.
It is if one thinks the album is a masterpiece like the OP does. I think it's rated too highly and deserves a 2.5-3.0.


if the OP thinks it's a masterpice, then he should rate it a 5 stars.

4 stars still means essential album, so, I don't get it I guess...
It is simply because "essential" does not equal "masterpiece". 4 does not equal 5.


like i said, i don't get it... but then again I rarely rate albums 5 stars or a perfect rating (other sites have different rating systems). When it rarely happens, it's either me never getting enough of that album or being blown away (it's rare, but it does happen). Big smile

So to me 4 stars is a high, positive rating. Complaing about that seems strange (for lack of a better word).

Now if APP was rated much lower, I would understand the complaint.
Yes, I know someone who will argue to the death that Born To Run is the greatest rock album ever made and gets crazy and defensive when someone disagrees. What can you do? I'm not saying that of the OP but these people exist.

Edited by SteveG - October 11 2019 at 06:29
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

again 4.02 is NOT a low rating.
It is if one thinks the album is a masterpiece like the OP does. I think it's rated too highly and deserves a 2.5-3.0.


if the OP thinks it's a masterpice, then he should rate it a 5 stars.

4 stars still means essential album, so, I don't get it I guess...
It is simply because "essential" does not equal "masterpiece". 4 does not equal 5.


like i said, i don't get it... but then again I rarely rate albums 5 stars or a perfect rating (other sites have different rating systems). When it rarely happens, it's either me never getting enough of that album or being blown away (it's rare, but it does happen). Big smile

So to me 4 stars is a high, positive rating. Complaing about that seems strange (for lack of a better word).

Now if APP was rated much lower, I would understand the complaint.
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

again 4.02 is NOT a low rating.
It is if one thinks the album is a masterpiece like the OP does. I think it's rated too highly and deserves a 2.5-3.0.


if the OP thinks it's a masterpice, then he should rate it a 5 stars.

4 stars still means essential album, so, I don't get it I guess...
It is simply because "essential" does not equal "masterpiece". 4 does not equal 5.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

again 4.02 is NOT a low rating.
It is if one thinks the album is a masterpiece like the OP does. I think it's rated too highly and deserves a 2.5-3.0.


if the OP thinks it's a masterpice, then he should rate it a 5 stars.

4 stars still means essential album, so, I don't get it I guess...


Edited by Cristi - October 11 2019 at 05:08
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

again 4.02 is NOT a low rating.
It is if one thinks the album is a masterpiece like the OP does. I think it's rated too highly and deserves a 2.5-3.0.
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again 4.02 is NOT a low rating.
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I don't know why you ask this question! I don't care about what people think about it. I don't want to know another guys reasons about their votes. I don't need "Album Rates" to enjoy music. 

I like to know people opinions about music and I love to discuss about musicians and albums and songs and ... but "Rates" never show value or quality... IMO and I don't carious about people votes!!!
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My damned college roommate use to torment me by playing APP endlessly.  I exacted revenge by playing "Foxtrot" endlessly.  He couldn't stand Gabriel's "mincing Brit" lilting lyric style!!  

Eventually, we came to understandings, and he became one of the biggest Gabriel/Genesis fans I know of.  

I eventually warmed up to APP but much prefer other works, including TAAB and "Minstrel."  

BTW, I am so damned old that I saw Tull perform TAAB in concert!  10 October, 1972!  Amazing show!
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Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

I hadn’t listened to APP in a long time. I just did. I warmed up to it a bit. It had good stretches and bad stretches. It was definitely not cohesive. Poorly thought out. The cohesion in TAAB is far superior. TAAB is not a masterpiece. Aqualung is.



I re-listened to both TAAB and APP yesterday and I agree....TAAB is more melodic with better song structures....both are lyrically interesting  but TAAB is simply a better album musically.
And I agree...I also prefer Aqualung to both of those.
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Shakespeare? Complete and utter w**k! I prefer the "principia" every day of the week. A true work of Genius...as is "Origin of Species"....
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