2000-2003 studio albums: 20 of my faves and 5 more

Grunpyprogfan wrote: As for being tolerant of others opinions I agree, Greg. However, when I said I didn't like "Rock Bottom" you wrote a thesis on why everyone should. You also called me out on some words I used in my review of "In A Silent Way". I don't see that as being tolerant.

You agree that tolerance should have its limits (tolerance within reason) and some opinions are more tolerable (and more sensible, comport more to reality, can be better justified, and are generally more valid) than others? And I hope you agree that discussing and dissecting opinions can be useful, both your own opinions and others. Of course there is importance in understanding the opinion/position/perspective for it to be a really meaningful exercise, and to try not to misrepresent others opinions/ beliefs and statements. I hope you also appreciate exploring ideas, evaluating and re-evaluating beliefs.

I posted that link a few posts up for context, but here is what I wrote after you called Rock Bottom “pretty pretty bad” in response to Paul. Which has a more negative and judgmental feel to me than saying I don’t like it. Note that I also was responding to Paul as you were and he has been quite harsh I would say in his appraisals of both Rock Bottom and Blackstar. He has some strong opinions and I disagree with Paul on many issues, and I agree on others. We tend to express ourselves (share ideas) differently. If by thesis you mean long, it's not long by my standards (or by the standards of my work), EDIT: And here is the link again, context is important and sure would be sad to misrepresent the actual "discussion": Your one and two star album ratings?

Grumpyprogfan wrote: ^Yeah that Wyatt album is pretty pretty bad. But as you know, I rate most Zappa records highly ... but I'd be dreaming if they were all masterpieces.

Logan wrote: I find Robert Wyatt's Rock Bottom both absurd and poignant. It's a very moving album to me and I find it all the more meaningful that it occurred after that serious accident Wyatt had when he fell out a window and broke his spine. I had heard and appreciated the album before I knew the story behind the album, but knowing the background does make it all the more poignant and moving for me. Similarly, Blackstar comes from a place of change and suffering, and like Rock Bottom, I also find it ultimately triumphant in its way as well as very poignant. That someone would put together such an album while dying I do find admirable, and it is deeply personal. That it became so respected by so many, I love. Like with Rock Bottom, I get an empathetic reaction too with it. To me it is not just the culmination of a career, but a life. I recall that Paul described it as depressing, well yeah, I find the circumstances behind it depressing, and subject matter (e.g. "I'm dying to, I'm dying too") but I also find it life-affirming in its way. Bowie and Wyatt have been two of my favourite artists for many albums through the years, but Rock Bottom and Blackstar mean the most to me. To hear such things reduced to "bad" saddens me. Of course people can and will like what they like, but I rarely like to call albums bad. Feels heartless to me considering the circumstances too, but then those albums evoke very strong emotional reactions from me that go much deeper than I like them.

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Where did I say everyone should like it or even imply that? I wrote that people can and will like what they like. I was sharing my feelings and it was sincere and came from my heart (even if it is a "disgusting" heart). I’m fine if people don’t like it, but I will explain why I appreciate it and don’t see it as bad. Is it wrong for me to share that, a less worthy forum commentary than "it's pretty pretty bad"? And even if one does not appreciate the results I would have hoped that some could have felt something sympathetic about the situation behind the recording.

Here is what I wrote in the text (most of the rest of my post) of my post (there was more to my post than the "thesis" (intended hyperbole?) above as I covered several things) where you shared an opinion (and list before) in a discussion topic. I disagreed with a claim you made in your lowly rated In a Silent Way review. I find that was fairly relevant and I think I addressed it fairly reasonably.. It came after responding to your frank, if honest and thought out, comment on Rock Bottom. Is it intolerant to disagree and have a different perspective and to share that in an discussion about our own and two star ratings?

Logan wrote: With Will's ratings , I love Swans' The Beggar, but I get that being a marmite album. What I would not have expected nearly so much is two stars for Miles Davis' In a Silent Way, but I respect that you took the time to review that album. To me it is wonderful album and the album that first got me to love Miles Davis. What I dislike and strongly disagree with in your review is this line, "This isn't essential to anyone's record collection." I have no idea how you would come to that conclusion. People enjoy different things, what's essential to me need not be essential to you. And I absolutely would have described that album as essential to my collection as much as anything could be described as essential. If I had to save just one Davis album, that would be it, for two add in Big Fun. I'm not nearly so keen on Kind of Blue, but I have no problem appreciating that other people really love it and would not tell them that this it is inessential to their collections.

So you entered a discussion topic about low ratings and then commenting on an aspect of your review that justifies ratings is intolerant? Okay I know you were playing on the ratings descriptions maybe in fun. I’m fine with you not liking In a Silent Way, but yet again you made a claim that I disagree with and how can say what is essential to my collection? It is either not a sensible opinion or it is dishonest, I think. Either way, I don't think it's valid (to use your term). Or maybe it's just really badly expressed. Or I do think it was in fun based on the ratings descriptions. Still, I took it seriously and mentioned why I disagreed. Misconceptions are easy, sarcasm and humour can be hard to read. Just ask the Topeka tart.

Is any of that that I wrote really worse or less civil than (as you posted earlier in this topic):

Grumpyprogfan wrote: I'm tired of you and Greg telling others what you dislike. Every opinion is valid. Your snobbery shows and it's disgusting.

And are you as critical of people who dislike the same things you dislike and call pretty pretty bad (including yourself)? That was your example of an exchange where you took issue with me and made claims that I know don't comport with reality (with my thinking, and therefore I do not value your opinions (your interpretation) when it comes to those claims, including that it is snobbery when I don't think what I like is superior and often talk about matters of taste. It's up to you to prove such claims, but it's a very uncharitable interpretation. You find it disgusting and I find your words, your claims depressing and not sensible. With some people there is no point in trying to have good faith, sincere and reasonable conversation. Maybe you think that I am that person.

EDIT: By the way, you did explain why you wrote that about your rating on Miles Davis in that topic on page two, and I did take the time to acknowledge that. I think I was fair, friendly and polite in response there (I hope so). I should have read on more carefully in the topic I linked to to refresh my memory of events cause of course the whole context should be considered (especially to better understand your complaints)

I do have a problem with those ratings descriptions. If there was anything unresolved from that Your One and Two Star Albums topic I wish we had just revived our posts and continued the discussion there cordially. I really do like things to become "water under the bridge" ASAP, and that does require actively listening to each other and trying to cordially talk things out (avoid assumptions, avoid bias, avoid prejudice, try to understand and listen to where they other person is coming from).

It can get confusing when talking about multiple conversations and the like, and I should work on streamlining my ideas and expressing myself as accurately and sincerely as possible. It is best to focus on the positive for me at the forum, negativity (especially when it comes to people) really does get me down and I have been in a bad way. Too much stress in life, should not be adding to it here. A break would have been the best thing, but there were issues that kept bringing me back. I would like to come back refreshed with the negative stuff behind me. I would much rather focus on that which I am enthusiastic about, the positive, the fun stuff, the good-for-me stuff, and share that enthusiasm.

I apologise for drawing this out. I was genuinely hurt and confused by claims. And resolution can be really hard to come by (often one just has to resolve things and accept things in and of oneself). Sometimes I think it's easier to clear things up in conversation than it actually is (part of that is letting go of any pride and honestly owning up to mistakes). I do feel like a good mod should be much better at conflict resolution than I have been as I have thought mediation is one of the most important aspects of moderation. At least I do hope that my actual position, my perspectives and beliefs are a little better understood now.

1. I don't believe that the music I listen to is superior to what others here listen to, nor is a person's taste in art the main way I would judge character. That said, our tastes commonly do say a lot about our character. And I understand how how we can identify ourselves with our interests (so hearing someone say something you like is rubbish can feel like an attack on our character. Our appreciation, likes and dislikes is linked to our characters).

2. I don't like to refer to music as good and bad generally. Tastes differ and I say, with some exceptions as is often the case, vive la difference. That said, I'm not as in the "it's all subjective" as some claim and some music can be described as "better" given certain frameworks and expectations.

3. I generally would not expect people to like what I like as taste is so subjective. That said, if I know that person tends to like that kind of music I like, then I would sooner expect it. I think that recommendations commonly work best when you know what the other is into, looking for, and their expectations generally. That said left-field suggestions, surprises may work really well.

4. I am interested in the justifications for things. To me that makes for better reasoning, understanding and conversations.

5. I appreciate accuracy, I generally dislike sarcasm, I like honesty if handled cordially mostly. I appreciate considering evidence and fact-finding. Nit-picking can get in the way of the bigger picture.

6. I am interested in knowing what people like AND dislike. It helps with recommendations, it can help with conversations, it helps with getting to know people. And I am interested in "why" certain things seem to appeal to an individual and others things don't. To many the repetitive and ambient/atmospheric music that often resonates with me is not appreciated by others. One's tastes are informed and formed by experiences and general personality traits. I am perfectly fine with people not liking what I like and expressing so if done thoughtfully.

7. I don't believe that all opinions are valid or of equal worth (some opinions are better informed, more realistic and more sensible than others). I operate thinking that tolerance should have its limits (tolerance within reason). I believe in keeping an open mind, but, this is not original, not so open that your brains fall out.

8. I do believe in the principle of charity where one ideally would try to put one's opponents arguments in the strongest form possible, and trying to be thoughtful when interpreting posts, and very careful when determining someone's intent. We should be very careful with assigning beliefs and claims to others and try to verify if we can. Asking for clarification can help. Of course people make mistakes, and hopefully they own up to them and apologise if being negative about someone else and in error. I wish disputes could be handled more civilly by me too. Emotions can get in the way of sound reasoning and proper observation.

9. When being dismissive of or making negative claims about an album or artist, generally keep in mind how that artist might feel reading that, and also keep in mind that other people might be passionate about the music (try to be honest but polite generally in how one phrases ones dislike. Of course it's fine to like and not like things.)

10. Constructive criticism commonly is of more value than vacuous praise. Remember that some take any criticism much harder than others, some have thicker skins than others. I think it should be approached with some sensitivity and courtesy.

11. I believe in promoting well-being and minimising suffering as a general principle (not just for yourself).

12. I prefer love to hate generally, kindness to meannness. Good-natured humour to cruel sarcasm. I generally prefer enthusiasm to malaise. I like warmth from people. I tend to avoid terms like "meh". I prefer positivity to negativity, I appreciate neutrality. When it comes to pessimism and optimism, I really appreciate realism.

13. I like to talk things out and try to resolve differences, and to try to do it in a polite manner, but it takes two to tango. And it can be very time-consuming and draining. Some are more willing to commit to that process than others.

14. I am not an absolutist! I think black and white thinking is problematic as can be being so tied to principles that they don't recognise where exceptions are more sensible. And far too many people are far too certain of things and too sure of themsleves. I appreciate rational scepticism. Cynicism can be a problem.

Edited by Logan - June 30 2025 at 18:46

OK I tell you, yeah, Sigur Ros and then (of course ) Kid A in the top 3 and The Necks complete the top 5. Plus of course those already mentioned. Actually the Secret Chiefs 3 is also great. I don't know the Woven Hand and Rachel's. Ah, some more listening to do.

Edited by Lewian - June 29 2025 at 17:57

Logan wrote: ^ Pram, Boards of Canada, Air, Godspeed?

Actually there are even at least five albums I love other than those already mentioned. The Pram album would probably have rank 4 among these and Godspeed in the top 3. Despite your best efforts you never got me into Air, and I know and like a number of Boards of Canada albums but I think I've never heard this one. So we have still 2 out of 3 missing and 3 out of 5.

Well, I like a lot of others, but my vote goes to The Noise Made By People (I've got to say that I see this album head and shoulders over the rest of Broadcast's catalogue, chances are they are more even in your Greg's appreciation?).

Should I mention anything else? Uh oh, there's the "if I mention this I should also mention that" thing, but just for the sake of it I think that Drukqs is mightily strong and rarely mentioned here (other than albums like In Absentia, which is also mightily strong but generally appreciated, and even Michigan probably has a good number of mentions in the forum now). Also Sunset Mission even though I learnt in the last year or so that Bohren & Der Club of Gore have a few admirers here.

There are at least three further albums here that I really love but won't mention. Any guess?

Edited by Lewian - June 29 2025 at 17:34

Grumpyprogfan wrote: Sap, also in the same thread said he would have lost all credibility for suggesting Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, Marillion or Kansas to a noob. He further stated he didn't like any of them. Were you trying to be funny with that credibility statement?

Yes in the context it was meant humorous although you didn't find it funny. The discussion started with other people stating that someone's (Gregs?) weirdo selection would put newbies off. In my example I turned it upside down and wrote that would have lost all credibilitiy if I had chosen the less out there and melodic stuff - such as Neo Prog. Losing my credilbility over this young fella who came from avant-garde jazz and the likes was meant as a lighthearted comment on my own behalf. Not to be taken seriously - as if I care about mentioned credibility. I know you weren't amused, but I actually thought I was kind of funny when I wrote something in the line of "but thankfully I don't like any of them" too. Although it's also how I feel.

Grumpyprogfan wrote: Also, Sap you mention I have been very direct in my dislike of you as a human being. I don't ever recall that. Care to tell me when that was and what I said exactly? As you requested, I will ignore your opinions, and you should give me the same

You've shown your disgust for me several times, just like you did yesterday. You've complained about how I comment, asked for admin to remove posts when nobody else seemingly cares. I have no idea in what spesific theads you've had it in for me, and maybe you don't notice your own behaviour. Apparently I'm a disgusting snob without even noticing, so these things do happen to us all.

But seriously if you can't stomach me writing that I do not like-or care for a band that you love - my best advice is simply to not read future Saperlipopette!-posts. I think how I phrase it is a mild, non-offensive way of sharing such opinion. What I enjoy - and do not enjoy are two sides of the same coin for me. I still stay away from every single thread/topic regarding bands and artists I know are not my bag, and I focus at least 90-95% on the positive and the music I love.

I did remember trying to explain out different approaches after several complaints about my way of commenting though:

Saperlipopette! wrote: Grumpyprogfan wrote: These polls are for fun. I don't understand why some members just complain and pick them apart. It's a headscratcher. If you don't like the poll don't participate. I never said I didn't like the poll. Its about my favorite kind of music, so I'm immediately interested. Unlike those who don't like people arguing about politics, or fail to see the point of negative threads/topics - I comment on the actual content. I know you don't like, or care for my tone, but observing and commenting that very little of a poll's content that claims to be about Classic US Jazz, is infact Classic US Jazz, is a natural way for me to participate. I'm usually as "brutally honest" in real life as well. If someone made a poll titled "Classic 1970's Prog" and its options were mainly bands such as Boston, Journey, Foreigner and REO Speedwagon, I would have commented in a similar way. That's just the awful kind of person I am I guess.

Edited by Saperlipopette! - June 29 2025 at 11:39

Went with the 'Beard' on this one Spock's Beard - V, but what a really good list.

I value expressing one's negative opinions with well argumented constructive criticism much more than the positive ones. Negativity has a certain aura to it that doesn't let its message through without leaving differing reactions.

Logan wrote: I know some people seem to take it as a personal attacks when one mentions not liking something.

I'd say that it's a perfectly natural reaction and part of human nature. We, people, as we mature, have to learn to take others' difference in opinion with a grain of salt. It's an acquired skill.

Edited by Hrychu - June 28 2025 at 23:31

^ If every opinion is valid, so is mine. Not interested/dislike is just a normal dismissal of something that's not for me. I don't understand what's problematic about it. My dislike/disinterest isn't snobbery. It's honest and I haven't got the time for any more self censoring just because you are tired of it. Stating what I do not enjoy is as natural part of conversations about any kind art as stating what I do enjoy is. I couldn't care less whether you dislike a band I love - something you do every once in a while. Can't you just ignore me and my opinions?

Besides, what is worse: you being very direct in your dislike of me, or me disliking some band?

and BTW: I haven't noticed Greg telling others about his dislikes more often than you do yourself.

Love, to like alot:

Radiohead - Kid A (2000) - (voted for)
Godspeed You! Black Emperor - Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven (2000)
Bohren & der Club of Gore - Sunset Mission (2000)
Kayo Dot - Choirs of the Eye (2003)
Secret Chiefs 3 - Book M (2003)
Broadcast - The Noise Made By People (2000)
Pram - The Museum of Imaginary Animals
Sufjan Stevens - Michigan (2003)
Woven Hand - Blush Music (2003)
Rachel's - Systems/Layers (2003)
The Necks - Drive By (2003)
Aphex Twin - Drukqs (2001)
Porcupine Tree - In Absentia (2002)

Not heard - or don't know well enough to have an opinion:

Boards of Canada - Geogaddi (2002)
Boris - Flood (2000)
Sigur Rós - ( ) (2002)
Stereolab - Sound-Dust (2001)
Ulver - Perdition City (2000)
Air - 10 000 Hz Legend (2001)

Not interested/dislike:

Neal Morse - Testimony (2003)
Spock's Beard - V
Transatlantic - Bridge Across Forever (2002)
Pain of Salvation - Remedy Lane (2002)

1. Transatlantic - Bridge Across Forever
2. The Flaming Lips - Yohimi Battles the Pink Robots
3. Porcupine Tree - In Absentia
4. Neal Morse - Testimony

Edited by Psychedelic Paul - June 28 2025 at 11:28