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Azrael2112 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 19 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 246
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 Posted: February 01 2005 at 15:12 |
 Lunarscape wrote:
Why in the first place label heavy metal bands as
progressive metal ? Uriah Heep, Deep Purple were heavy metal bands with
guitars in the straight blues lanes and backed by heavy Hammond organ
tunes. Both Hensley and Lord got world wide recognition as hammond
players. Why the prog label....DT is just another band , non prog, heavy
metal...as Metallica. The band that comes closest to progressive rock is
Queensryche...
________
Lunar  |
Comparing Metallica to Dream Theater is ridiculous. Though Metallica in
their early days did dabble in "prog-like" areas. They are by no means
prog.
I do agree that Queensryche is Prog Metal but not completly, as is
Dream Theater...Saying that, one of Dream Theaters biggest influences is
in fact, Queensryche. If you don't agree, you have obviously not heard any
of Scenes from a Memory, or Six Degrees...
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The Owl
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 19 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 363
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Posted: February 01 2005 at 15:52 |
Couldn't agree more, between James LaBrie's unlistenable screeching and the pointless post-Al DiMeola math-rock w**kery, I'll pass on these guys altogether.
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People are puzzled why I don't dig the Stones, well, I listened to the Stones, I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and--I Can't Get No Satisfaction!
www.myspace.com/theowlsmusic
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: February 01 2005 at 15:58 |
Azrael2112 wrote:
Comparing Metallica to Dream Theater is ridiculous. Though Metallica in
their early days did dabble in "prog-like" areas. They are by no means
prog.
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It's by no means a ridiculous comparison - there are riffs on "Images and Words" that are almost directly lifted from "...And Justice for All" - plus DT covered the entire "Master of Puppets" album. The Metallica influence is VERY strong - Metallica were well ahead of their time back in 1988, and I would consider both "Master..." and "...And Justice..." to be at least proto prog metal albums. Although maybe UK came closer, in 1978.
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Azrael2112
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 19 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 246
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Posted: February 01 2005 at 16:03 |
Certif1ed wrote:
[QUOTE=Azrael2112] Comparing Metallica to
Dream Theater is ridiculous. Though Metallica in their early days did
dabble in "prog-like" areas. They are by no means prog. |
It's by no means a ridiculous comparison - there are riffs on "Images
and Words" that are almost directly lifted from "...And Justice for
All" - plus DT covered the entire "Master of Puppets"
album. The Metallica influence is VERY strong - Metallica
were well ahead of their time back in 1988, and I would consider both
"Master..." and "...And Justice..." to be at least proto prog
metal albums. Although maybe UK came closer, in 1978. [/
QUOTE]
Ok, I'll give you that...I take it back. But UK? I think they were more Jazz
based than anything.
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Azrael2112
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 19 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 246
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Posted: February 01 2005 at 16:03 |
Certif1ed wrote:
[QUOTE=Azrael2112] Comparing Metallica to
Dream Theater is ridiculous. Though Metallica in their early days did
dabble in "prog-like" areas. They are by no means prog. |
It's by no means a ridiculous comparison - there are riffs on "Images
and Words" that are almost directly lifted from "...And Justice for
All" - plus DT covered the entire "Master of Puppets"
album. The Metallica influence is VERY strong - Metallica
were well ahead of their time back in 1988, and I would consider both
"Master..." and "...And Justice..." to be at least proto prog
metal albums. Although maybe UK came closer, in 1978. [/
QUOTE]
Ok, I'll give you that...I take it back. But UK? I think they were more Jazz
based than anything.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: February 01 2005 at 16:16 |
That's what I thought until I tracked down a copy of their debut album. Yes there's jazz inflections on it, but I also hear a lot of bits and pieces that remind me of some sections of "Words and Images".
Jazz does have a place in prog - consider many of the Canterbury bands - or even "21st Century Schizoid Man"
I've only listened to UK's debut once - I bought it on Saturday for 50p - but liked it instantly; It sounded like Colosseum II but without the bluff. Gary Moore may be a wonderful guitarist - and a helpful roadie (I'll tell you the story sometime  ), but on the 2 Colosseum albums I own he bluffs his heart out. Holdsworth's style on UK's debut is almost proto-shredding - a joy to behold, you might say 
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Azrael2112
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 19 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 246
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Posted: February 01 2005 at 16:23 |
I totally agree that jazz has its place in prog. I'm a Big KC fan and alot of
their stuff is very jazz influenced.
I'll have to take a listen to UK's first album, and see what you mean. As a
matter of fact I'll listen to it right now.
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Valarius
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 08 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1480
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Posted: February 01 2005 at 18:45 |
FloydWright wrote:
Hey, I'm a woman and I liked Train of Thought!
Aaaaanyway...Valarius, how would you describe A Change of Seasons? What other albums of theirs does it compare best to, if any? I guess I'm kinda hesitant about purchasing DT albums I don't know something about in advance. |
"Images And Words", "Awake"... any of them really. It's just one of those essential albums that you should get! Although "ACOS" (the song) is 20 minutes long, it's the only original on the album. Along with it are 4 covers recorded live. But that doesn't matter, because it's still an amazing album!
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FloydWright
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 20 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 369
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Posted: February 02 2005 at 00:26 |
arcer wrote:
To me it's just juvenile, teen angst-ridden, overbearing, overstated bellowing. And really, really takes itself way too seriously.
Lighten up prog-matallers, adolescent acne does clear up!!!
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Now there is a harsh characterization of prog-metal fans, and I'd imagine totally undeserved in most cases. Maybe you feel this way about the genre, but I sure hope you don't think those of us who enjoy prog-metal are somehow lagging behind you? As a teen, believe it or not, I simply would not have had the open-mindedness to get near any kind of metal...it was getting older and no longer being a teenager that gave me the willingness to step outside my box a bit and try it...and I've not regretted it for a moment.
And thanks, Valarius, I'll read some reviews, and if I get a chance, I might consider buying it.
Edited by FloydWright
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
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Posted: February 02 2005 at 01:37 |
that's the same for me, reed!
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Valarius
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 08 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1480
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Posted: February 02 2005 at 03:13 |
FloydWright wrote:
And thanks, Valarius, I'll read some reviews, and if I get a chance, I might consider buying it. |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: February 02 2005 at 03:32 |
arcer wrote:
To me it's just juvenile, teen angst-ridden, overbearing, overstated bellowing. And really, really takes itself way too seriously.
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...and the problem with that is...?
Oh wait, bands should never take themselves seriously, should they - bands like Yes, ELP, Genesis, King Crimson...
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frenchie
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 30 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2234
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Posted: February 02 2005 at 09:07 |
speaking of deep purple, wasnt david coverdale in that band? i have nothing against the purple but coverdale was in whitesnake and they are one of the worst bands ive ever heard. he couldn't carry a tune if it had handles on it. all my friends hate whitesnake apart from this one guy who once said they were better than AC/DC and metallica put together (those 2 bands being 2 of his faves). after making this statement he was hurt badly and looked down upon.
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The Worthless Recluse
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Jim Prog Wizard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 23 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 134
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Posted: February 02 2005 at 09:08 |
1) Somebody mentioned the fact that DT might scare people away from listening to Prog. I would think that bands like Magma and Can would do the same if a mainstream music fan was listening to them for the first time. Does this mean that we should stop giving attention to bands like those as well?
2) When DT "go metal" it does not automatically ruin the music. Utilising the whole musical spectrum in terms of soft/heavy as bands like Opeth and DT do is nothing but beneficial. It's great to have a band that can use both beautiful melodies and crushing heavy metal, especially within the same song. The juxaposition is terrific! If timed right, a metal riff can be just as moving as a quiet melody line.
3) I really wish people would stop referring to DT purely as "great musicians". They are great musicians, some of the best I've ever seen, but this merely fuels the critisism that they are all about pointless never-ending solos rather than songs. This is completely untrue. Just listen to pieces like Learning To LIve, A Change Of Seasons and Beyond This Life. In terms of song-writing alone, DT are a fantastic band.
There is, incidentally, not a doubt in my mind that DT are Prog. Just because their roots are in metal rather than rock, folk or jazz doesn't make them any less so.
I've said my piece.
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"Progressive Rock is the ultimate form of music" (Mikael Akerfeldt, 2003)
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frenchie
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 30 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2234
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Posted: February 02 2005 at 09:11 |
since ive been hearing a lot of buzz about the metallica influence, yes DT are very tallica inspired. but ten times as proggy as metallica IMO
metallicas prog pieces:
orion, the call of ktulu, the outlaw torn, master of puppets maybe, and justice for all, one, to live is to die, blackened maybe. thas about it i think.
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The Worthless Recluse
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frenchie
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 30 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2234
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Posted: February 02 2005 at 09:16 |
Jim Prog Wizard wrote:
1) Somebody mentioned the fact that DT might scare people away from listening to Prog. I would think that bands like Magma and Can would do the same if a mainstream music fan was listening to them for the first time. Does this mean that we should stop giving attention to bands like those as well?
2) When DT "go metal" it does not automatically ruin the music. Utilising the whole musical spectrum in terms of soft/heavy as bands like Opeth and DT do is nothing but beneficial. It's great to have a band that can use both beautiful melodies and crushing heavy metal, especially within the same song. The juxaposition is terrific! If timed right, a metal riff can be just as moving as a quiet melody line.
3) I really wish people would stop referring to DT purely as "great musicians". They are great musicians, some of the best I've ever seen, but this merely fuels the critisism that they are all about pointless never-ending solos rather than songs. This is completely untrue. Just listen to pieces like Learning To LIve, A Change Of Seasons and Beyond This Life. In terms of song-writing alone, DT are a fantastic band.
There is, incidentally, not a doubt in my mind that DT are Prog. Just because their roots are in metal rather than rock, folk or jazz doesn't make them any less so.
I've said my piece. |
i agree especially with number 3. they are incredible musicians, especially petrucci on the guitar. he never does infinite solos, never makes love to his guitar, never does stupid stage antics, isnt full of himself like many other guitarists who have as much skill as him, a prime example is yngwie malmsteem, ive seen a lot of live clips of him and all he does is do insane speedy solos and act all high and mighty. he is crap when it comes to actual songwriting. he actually has the nerve to call the pieces he writes "musical odysseys" rather than calling them songs or whatever.
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The Worthless Recluse
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arcer
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 01 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1239
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Posted: February 02 2005 at 09:38 |
Certif1ed wrote:
arcer wrote:
To me it's just juvenile, teen angst-ridden, overbearing, overstated bellowing. And really, really takes itself way too seriously.
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...and the problem with that is...?
Oh wait, bands should never take themselves seriously, should they - bands like Yes, ELP, Genesis, King Crimson...
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Ah but I never said that the classic prog bands didn't take themselves too seriously - I find ELP hilariously Tap-ish And I will confess that the first time I saw Yes and little Jon Anderson produced a little harp to play the mid-section of 'Awaken' I nearly p***ed myself laughing thinking 'there's a harp onstage in danger of being trodden on by a dawrf (anderson)', though I adore Yes.
However, at least with most classic prog and other forms of music where there is serious intent (lyrically and musically) it doesn't come across as fifth form misery wrapped in 'weighty' powerchords intersperesed with pointless solos of brow-furrowing 'meaning'.
Just personal, you understand, i can appreciate why some people might go for it (in the same way I understand why people listen to Marilyn Manson and hate their parents) but I just find it all too amusing.
In my formative years I did get very very into metal, I suppose you'd call it 'classic metal/hard rock' now - Purple, AC/DC, Rainbow, Maiden, Sabs, Diamond Head etc etc but now I own very little save for some Purple, Rainbow and Sabbath as I can't see too much merit in it. I still dearly love AC/DC though but now I see them for what they are - a fabulous rock n roll band with the knack of writing some incredibly infectious pop songs - i don't even think of them as metal or hard rock any more.
I just find the metal from the early 80s onward - and particularly the 90 prog-metal - to be po-faced, self-regarding and altogether too .... dull. It just isn't fun, nothing in it sparkles for me like the bands of yore. I think Queensryche have a lot to answer for here - I have never ever seen a band take itself so seriously and yet be so vacuous musically. Operation Mindcrime (which I seem to feel is heralded as a major jumping off point for prog-metal) to me just sounds like badly recycled Pink Floyd meets Sabbath in a rehearsal room owned by Bon Jovi. Poor songwriting, poor ideas, poor vocals and melodies.
And I don't think it's simply old age catching up (i'm 38). I find more innovation, spark, life, humour and lyrics worth listening to in things like Radiohead et al. Indeed, I find them and their ilk to be far more akin to progressive rock than prog-metal.
Which is what I was trying to get at with my first post on this thread. Why is metal so closely linked to prog by some? Aside from long songs I can see little common ground.
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ironsmelter
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 23 2004
Location: China
Status: Offline
Points: 4
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Posted: February 02 2005 at 09:43 |
I enjoy.....
I have all their albums.IMO,Awake and 6 Degrees are really prog,and so is the debut dispite the bad production;I & W and ToT are interesting,especially for metal fans,though not so progressive;A Change of Seasons and Metropolis pt.2 are awfully touching,even if sometimes a little bit boring;I don't like Falling into Infinity.
I like both prog rock and prog metal,from KC,Yes,E.L.P,Maxphone to PoS,Sym X & Sieges Even.Of course ,prog rock sounds deeper and more sophisticated,but prog metal is still worth listening to.
Edited by ironsmelter
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Cygnus X-2
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 24 2004
Location: Bucketheadland
Status: Offline
Points: 21342
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Posted: February 02 2005 at 19:48 |
ironsmelter wrote:
I enjoy.....
I have all their albums.IMO,Awake and 6 Degrees are really prog,and so is the debut dispite the bad production;I & W and ToT are interesting,especially for metal fans,though not so progressive;A Change of Seasons and Metropolis pt.2 are awfully touching,even if sometimes a little bit boring;I don't like Falling into Infinity.
I like both prog rock and prog metal,from KC,Yes,E.L.P,Maxphone to PoS,Sym X & Sieges Even.Of course ,prog rock sounds deeper and more sophisticated,but prog metal is still worth listening to.
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You forgot When Dream and Day Unite. A quite unique album I must say, the vocals are incredible.
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Metropolis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 760
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Posted: February 02 2005 at 22:04 |
CHARLES DOMINICI IS A PONCE
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We Lost the Skyline............
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