![]() |
|
Post Reply ![]() |
Page 12> |
Author | ||
Starless ![]() Forum Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: June 29 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 85 |
![]() Posted: July 22 2010 at 03:48 |
|
I accidentally stood on and broke a cd the other day, so I've ordered a replacement from Amazon. This got me thinking - at what stage are royalties paid to artists? I have never worked in and neither do I know anybody who works in the record industry, but my best guess is this:
1. Rising star prog band The Cat's Whiskers record their new album, financed by their record label Purrfect Records.
2. Purrfect tell the distributor a new album has been made and the distributor pays for and places an order for let's say 10000 cds with Purrfect.
3. Purrfect then pay for the manufacture of however many the distributor wants, in this case 10000.
4. The distributor then sells his 10000 cds to Amazon (and/or any other retailer).
5. Amazon then sell the cds to us. If any are left unsold they eventually end up in bargain bins, or there may be a sale or return deal with the distributor.
The record label get's paid at 2. Is the artist royalty generated at at 4 or 5? If 5 how is it tracked, as the retailer might not sell all their stock?
Of course all this only applies to bands on traditional labels, as bands that sell cds direct from their own websites have a much more direct method of being paid.
Or am I completely wrong?! Can anybody put me striaght?
|
||
Beware of the flowers, cos they're gonna get you yet!
|
||
![]() |
||
Chris S ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 09 2004 Location: Front Range Status: Offline Points: 7028 |
![]() |
|
I would imagine that once the albums in this case CD's hit the stores, the royalty cut would already have been proportioned. I doubt a big retailer has the ability to send unsold items back to the distributor and it would not be the artists fault if a retailer had over stocked.
I may well be wrong, but seems to make perfect sense. A very good question though.
|
||
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
||
![]() |
||
Dick Heath ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12818 |
![]() |
|
Usually spasmodically and often "get lost in the post". I once took a well known drummer out to dinner, having been told after 25 years in the business of lots of gigs and recordings/ session recordings, he had 600 quid in the bank, he had borrowed his girlfriend's car to come and see me, and his girlfriend paid for their flat. He felt right royally screwed by the business when anticipated cheques don't appear more often as not and he didn't have enough cash to afford a lawyer to sue. I don't believe this was an unusual case.
Presume the main case, records/CD issued by record companies and sold by the retailers or web mail order firms. Here, typically (unless there is a sale or return agreement) these are paid by exchange of monies between record company and retailer, based on the amount ordered in. Then the retailer will mark up and add on local purchase/VA tax and sell to theee and me. The money received by the record company then gets split a large number of ways, manufacturing costs, artist royalty (should have been fixed by contract and then depends on the artists and the agreement), composer royalty, profit, advertising, etc. etc. Then artist might expect a quarterly or half yearly cheque with their cut - but record companies are notorius at deducting recording, advertising, and other promotion costs from the artist royalties. Police for instance paid their own recording costs of their first album, and licensed to A&M Records to minimise start-up debt. Many prog and jazz artist have a more modern approach, especially being unsigned to a label, in recording and producing their own CDs and selling at gigs and via the web. One musican told me he and his band could survive and indeed record a follow-up, by selling 5000 copies minimum per annum, since manufacture cost of the CD + package/postage was less than one tenth of the sales price. (The band had been dropped by a record label for failing to sell 50,000 copies minimum of their previous album). Other formats are more difficult, e.g. vinyl release - there is a need for special mastering and manufacturing facilities. MP3 and other digital formats are clearly offered on sale by Apple IPod, Amazon and many others and numerous indie artists enter into contract to sell single and albums this way - need somebody else to explain the economics here. However, quite a few bands now offer recordings of live performance (e.g Umphrey's Mcgee) through what appears more independent and artist-oriented websites, can we assume monies get paid much more quickly this way.
But then being a successful song-writer is another story - how do you think Dolly Parton's Dollyworld got financed? Another of my friends admitted that he happily surviving as an independent musician on the royalties he got from two international hits, 15 years after their original release dates - you would recognise the artist's name who had the hits. As an indicator here, it was reckoned Gerry Marsden made a quarter of million sterling in royalties, because 'Ferry Across The Mersey' was on the flipside of the single 'Relax' recorded by Frankie Goes To Hollywood. Hence the bitching by Ginger Baker and Eric Clapton that Jack Bruce continues to make most money from Cream 40 years later, mainly because of songwriting royalties - but this gripe subsequently didn't stop Clapton from opening his Autobiography compilation with Bruce/Brown composition...... Edited by Dick Heath - July 22 2010 at 04:35 |
||
The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
||
![]() |
||
Starless ![]() Forum Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: June 29 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 85 |
![]() |
|
Thanks Chris - very informative. So buying a second hand cd has no detrimental effect on the artist as the royalty has already been paid. Feel better now!
As for Clapton's moaning, one would imagine he's not short of a bob or two, particularly by doing his interminable runs of Blues-By-Numbers for middle aged businessmen at the Albert Hall every year. To think he was once hailed as "God" is unbelivable considering how diluted he became after Cream......but Baker I can understand.
|
||
Beware of the flowers, cos they're gonna get you yet!
|
||
![]() |
||
toroddfuglesteg ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Retired Joined: March 04 2008 Location: Retirement Home Status: Offline Points: 3658 |
![]() |
|
As an ex record label owner........... There is so many variables here coming into play. You have also forgotten to add the mechanical rights paid to the song/melody writer. A real pain in the bottom and a big cost if you are small record label. This is royalties paid before the album goes to the CD/LP manufacturer. The normal record deal is a net contract where the recording artist is paid four times a year, no matter whatever Amazon sells. Some record companies also pays out royalties only 1-2 a year. On the top of the mechanical rights, some also pays out a advancement on the royalties. Let's say The Cat's Whiskers signs with Purrfect Records on a socalled "1 million quid deal". Purrfect Records pays The Cat's Whiskers 250 000 quid on the day they sign the record deal. Money which is meant to last 12-18 months before the next royalties payment. The rest of the million quid is used on marketing/promotion, tour support, studio recording and manufacturing. By net contract, I mean for example 10 % of the net income after the manufacturing, promo and marketing, admin cost, legal fees, travel and smashed/scratched up hotel rooms has been paid. The record deals are now also changing from net contracts to 360 degrees contracts due to the very diminishing income the record labels are now getting from the record sales. A 360 degrees contract means the usual net contract + that The Cat's Whiskers has to pay the record label a percentage of their gigs, merchandise and other non-record sales incomes. I hope this has been an informing post. Edit: Sorry, I did not see Dick's post before I posted my own reply.
Edited by toroddfuglesteg - July 22 2010 at 04:47 |
||
![]() |
||
Starless ![]() Forum Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: June 29 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 85 |
![]() |
|
Thanks torodd....
Running an indy record label sounds like more trouble than it's worth! BTW The Cat's Whiskers are impeccably behaved nice middle class boys and would never smash up hotel rooms.
![]() |
||
Beware of the flowers, cos they're gonna get you yet!
|
||
![]() |
||
Dick Heath ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12818 |
![]() |
|
No need for any apology, good to hear soemthing from inside the indie section. I was writing having talked to many musicians and also having worked in the retail side up until the early 70's - and then knew a few record shop owners very well (until both their businesses died 3 years ago). Taking jazz rock musician Wayne Krantz for an example, for about 10 years did his own thing wrt recording, disc making, publicising and selling his own albums - each with sleeves stating: don't copy this album, you're screwing me directly, since margins and sales were very finely balanced. |
||
The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
||
![]() |
||
Lost Follower ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 12 2008 Location: Londres Status: Offline Points: 130 |
![]() |
|
90% of artists don't get paid for there music. Recorded or otherwise. The only real way to make money from recorded music is to get a damn good publishing deal (all but impossible these days) and join the PRS and get a f**king good radio plugger.
|
||
~Jump you f**ker jump~
|
||
![]() |
||
harmonium.ro ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
![]() |
|
This is an interesting article, too: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-10654380
|
||
![]() |
||
aapatsos ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 11 2005 Location: Manchester, UK Status: Offline Points: 9226 |
![]() |
|
a few years ago I heard from a relatively well-placed (worldwide known) Greek metal band that they were getting paid about 1-2 cents per cd sold
![]() Edited by aapatsos - July 26 2010 at 14:45 |
||
![]() |
||
Henry Plainview ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
![]() |
|
But if you're world-renowned, you can also charge $50 a ticket for a show, so it all balances out. I'm not a fan of major labels either, but if Evan Parker and Peter Brotzmann can survive on $20 a ticket at a small venue in DC, I'm sure everybody can work something out.
|
||
if you own a sodastream i hate you
|
||
![]() |
||
Starless ![]() Forum Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: June 29 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 85 |
![]() |
|
I would have thought most artists at the lower end of the world domination scale have day jobs too!
|
||
Beware of the flowers, cos they're gonna get you yet!
|
||
![]() |
||
Starless ![]() Forum Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: June 29 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 85 |
![]() |
|
harmonium - thanks for the link, interesting reading
![]() |
||
Beware of the flowers, cos they're gonna get you yet!
|
||
![]() |
||
Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
![]() |
|
|
||
What?
|
||
![]() |
||
toroddfuglesteg ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Retired Joined: March 04 2008 Location: Retirement Home Status: Offline Points: 3658 |
![]() |
|
They got paid ??? They are the lucky ones, then. |
||
![]() |
||
Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
![]() |
|
![]() While it stated that the artist doesn't have to pay back the advance if they fail, it also implied that the artist doesn't get paid any royalties until it is effectively paid back if they succeed - essentially the record label recovers all their costs from record sales (including any advance, PR costs etc.) before paying the artists any more money.
Of course for a Prog artists, even signing to a biggish label, a £1 million pound deal is just a dream.
|
||
What?
|
||
![]() |
||
harmonium.ro ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
![]() |
|
Actually, a year ago or some more I read that there is a tax of 5% applied to all resellings of copyrighted goods, which is collected by the organizations dedicated to collective rights management (or what's their name). I'd have to dig deep to find that article I read, though. |
||
![]() |
||
Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
![]() |
|
|
||
What?
|
||
![]() |
||
The Hemulen ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 31 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 5964 |
![]() |
|
Usually, yes, but an increasing number of bands sell their music more directly these days, bypassing the labels (or operating their own independant one). It's worth bearing that in mind. |
||
![]() |
||
Slartibartfast ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
![]() |
|
Ze peanuts are thrown at ze performing monkeys in zeir cages.
![]() Edited by Slartibartfast - July 27 2010 at 09:20 |
||
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
![]() |
||
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page 12> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |