The Role of Virtuosity in Progressive Music

rogerthat wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: "A person who excels in musical technique or execution." "A consummate master of musical technique and artistry" "A person who has a masterly or dazzling skill or technique in any field of activity" All of these can mean "virtuoso."  They're pretty vague and open to interpretation, yes.   Interesting that none of these definitions necessarily suggest a propensity to show off.   Also, I forgot to address this the previous day: Guldbamsen wrote:  I would mind having hear a piano fugue in the midst of I Talk to the Wind or a jazz chase done during Cirrus Minor.... I'd suggest that that is poor songwriting/composition rather than virtuosity that needs to be blamed for that.   The virtuosos in KC did not ruin I Talk to the Wind that way, after all.   It's interesting that Howe is mentioned when the subject of virtuosity comes up.   Certainly he is a master of the acoustic but I find Fripp and Hackett steadier on electric, maybe Latimer as well.   Look at Hackett's leads in Dancing on the Moonlit Knight, that's faster than probably anything Howe ever played on electric and yet it never sounds jarring the way Howe's electric playing often does.   Makes me wonder again if we simply equate virtuosity with flashiness in rock.

Could you please give me some examples of these frequent occasions when Howe's electric playing sounds jarring? I've never come across it myself.
I find it difficult to accept that you have ever really listened to his playing!

Dayvenkirq wrote: ^ What would an artist need virtuosity for?

To be DREAM THEATER!!!

Gerinski wrote: Dayvenkirq wrote: Gerinski wrote: ... but talent, inspiration and being able to play with moving emotion are as much (if not more) a part of true virtuosity as being able to play fast is. Give me an example of that when it comes to instrumental virtuosity. Phil Collins drumming (in his best period) could be one, he never focused much on speed and yet he played as a virtuoso in my book. Dynamics control and expression are examples of musical techniques which are of course learnt by the musicians and mastered by hard practice, same as mastering speed, but few people think of them when using  the term 'virtuoso'. The ability of knowing how to shift successfully between keys would be another technical quality which has nothing to do with speed (I do not mean 'shifting among different keyboards'). I'm not a musician myself but I would bet that out of all the stuff they teach in a conservatory, only little concerns learning to play fast.

Gerinski. You are right again. Im in full agreement on the Phil Collins point. Sheeesh!? I wonder if you have your own magic quote book or something. Lol I've been reading this thread from page one and you seem to agree with me the most. Very entertaining man. Keep up the good work. I'd say your a virtuoso right now.

cstack3 wrote: Bob Fripp could smoke any of 'em.   I've known Fripp since the 1980s, have played in a band with one of his first Guitar Craft students, and played guitar for about 45 years myself.   The scalar riffing of DiMeola is very impressive, but not nearly as much as Fripp's remarkable cross-picking technique.  Fripp also has ungodly long and strong fingers, his reach is unreal.   And we can't forget, McLaughlin is the guv who launched this whole thing!  I LOVE DiMeola, mind you, and he has done many remarkable things in fusion, world music etc.  Al DiMeola and many other modern guitar phenoms come out of either Berklee School of Music or the Guitar Institute of Technology, and the craft of playing guitar is much more refined than in the early 1970's.  The instructors have taken the innovations of McLaughlin, Martino and others and honed them into amazing curriculum.  John Petrucci is probably the most technically perfect guitarist to take a stage in this decade, but I find his music to be very cold.   Frank Gambale just amazes with his sweep-picking technique (he has taught at the GIT), but I know even better players.   It is just amazing how many gunslingers are out there!  Fortunately, the hair-band shredders of the 1980's have pretty much gone away.  Look around for the hidden gems out there, a lot of amazing guitar players are toiling away in the orchestra pits of the big city shows (Thjis Van Leer was in a pit in Amsterdam when he founded Focus, playing keys for " Hair").   I can think of half a dozen in Chicago who would rival any of the "big name" guitarists we are talking about.

I like what you say here. Very interesting. Hate to be a buzz kill though and have to mention DRAGONFORCE in this thread, but they gotta really quick guitar player in HERMAN LI. That guy is the fastest I've ever heard. It's Malmsteen on speed.

^ Just go through a few last pages and you will find some interesting ideas from rogerthat and Tapfret regarding what virtuosity is.

Look at the humility on this guy's face during his chat with the audience (a guy considered by many to be a virtuoso in the blues world) regarding the company he is in.  That speaks volumes regarding what virtuosity is.  And listen to the band adapting from Eric's solo to Wynton's...fantastic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvNIivHdy0Q


Edited by Neelus - May 03 2013 at 14:08

Gerinski wrote: Virtuosity in its wide definition is to me the set of everything which can be learnt and mastered by practice, and this includes not only speed but all the technical aspects of playing, expression, dynamics, precision, range (in instruments where the range depends on the player's ability such as several wind instruments), mastering of all the different scales and keys and transitions between them (which allow the musician to be strong at improvisations) etc.

Edited by JediJoker7169 - May 04 2013 at 04:44

Virtuosity is a means to an end. If it is not present, the possibilities diminish greatly. Perhaps a computer can eventually play everything adequately, but that time has not yet come.

Gerinski wrote: I would say that we can divide the musical talents in 2 big groups: what can be learnt and mastered by hard practice and what can not be learnt, you either have it or you don't, and some have it more than others. Virtuosity in its wide definition is to me the set of everything which can be learnt and mastered by practice, and this includes not only speed but all the technical aspects of playing, expression, dynamics, precision, range (in instruments where the range depends on the player's ability such as several wind instruments), mastering of all the different scales and keys and transitions between them (which allow the musician to be strong at improvisations) etc. A musician mastering all these techniques is to me a virtuoso, and he will be able to impress any audience with his performance.

Having played classical music and studied its theory for some ten years (on amateur/semi-pro level), I think one of its greatest benefits to rock/prog side of things (besides the obvious stuff like knowing scales, time signatures, tempo changes etc.) is a real understanding of dynamics. It is easy (after practicing really hard for some years) for almost anyone to compose and play for example a fast, loud guitar solo based on scales and whatever. But to play the same solo with expression, producing every note exactly like you mean it should be, using a wide amount of different dynamics from pianissimo to fortissimo if necessary and not just one or two, that is in my opinion a big part of what makes a virtuoso player. I think this is an important aspect in almost any style of music. Many rockers don't even understand the difference between mezzopiano and mezzoforte (soundwise), let alone the more subtle aspects of dynamical playing.

Btw sorry if this was said elsewhere, I kind of got lost in this thread somewhere between pages three and four..

dr wu23 wrote: rogerthat wrote: pitfall wrote: Could you please give me some examples of these frequent occasions when Howe's electric playing sounds jarring? I've never come across it myself. I find it difficult to accept that you have ever really listened to his playing! Eh, any number of his faster leads with Yes but CTTE if you want one example.  Please read what I said with context - though I didn't specify it, I was comparing his approach with Hackett. Yes, compared to Hackett, I do find Howe's electric playing pretty jarring, the more so as he gets faster while Hackett is very smooth and makes me oblivious to how fast he might be playing.    I was thinking about Howe's leads and his playing just yesterday and I agree with you that Hackett and others are much 'smoother' and more melodic at times. There are leads by Howe here and there on all the best known lp's by Yes that sound 'jarring ' to me also...but it fits somehow with their overall approach.

Maybe because it provides a good contrast with the otherwise 'happy' sound of Yes.  And it's not as if he is not melodic but something in the execution gives an effect that I find jarring.  Fripp probably sounds smoother while playing harsh stuff.  And it's not as if I find it terribly flawed, pitfall just quoted me out of context.