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Tony R 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11985
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 Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:28 |
 AtLossForWords wrote:
Any great research database has all of the information that can be gathered on the main topic, but it also has other topics that have a direct and important relation to the main topic. |
Yes but this database is specific to Prog Rock! We are not "Allmusic" we are very specific...
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:31 |
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Prog Metal might as well be called technical metal with a mellotron here and there. It might be considered progressive from a hard rock/metal standpoint, but I believe it's more or less seperate from regular symphonic/neo/space prog. The same can be said for a lot of RIO bands, but complaints aren't heard for that. I think metal is a scapegoat in a way, but a lot of the bands are distinctly prog. Take Dream Theater (even if you hate them, which a lot of people seem to) they have just nearly as many old school symphonic aspects as metal aspects. "Octavarium" wasn't even a metal song. It's basically 24 minutes of TFK and SB with a bit more technicality and hard edges.
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Aaron
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 395
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:41 |
it's true, most prog metal isn't really prog in the classic definition of progressive, but to be fair a lot of bands shouldn't be listed on this site
it would be great if prog metal was kicked off this site, then would wouldn't need all those ads that are everywhere
Aaron
Edited by TheProgtologist - July 03 2006 at 19:34
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21817
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:44 |
Peter Rideout wrote:
Before you respond, please take a thorough look around the site. It seems to me that roughly half of the topics are about metal, and at least half of our members are here primarily because of metal, and the way metal has now become "prog." 
If what unites all the diverse music(s) here is the adjective "prog" (or "progressive") in front of (or after) the original category, as in "prog metal," "prog rock," "prog folk," etc, then where are the "prog country," "prog rap," "prog disco/dance" "prog soul" "prog ska," etc, artists? If metal can be so easily added here, why not country? Does the appearance of the vague term "prog" in front of an long-standing category really mean "good," "complex" or "non-commercial?" (If so, clearly define -- not subjectively -- those terms in a musical context, please!  )
I assure you, there is good, more complex, non-commercial country out there, and I am told that intelligent, "above average" rap exists too.
So why is metal apparently favoured as an example of "progressive" music? Twenty years from now, will "prog" basically mean metal, or at least "technically-accomplished metal with keyboards?"
To me, historic "prog" was an uplifting thing of beauty and grandeur. How do lightning-fast songs with vomited vocals about how everything sucks, and which celebrate the artist's disfunctionality and isolation from humanity, square with the (generally) uplifting (or at least very varied in subject and mood) "thrust" of classic progressive rock?
Are smiles, beauty, wonder and reaching out to our fellows in a spirit of unity all totally "uncool" now? Have complaining, blaming and "tearing down" taken the place of building up?
Too bad, I say.  |
I'd love to respond ... but I won't, because you are generalising and bashing Prog Metal in your post, denying any possibility that some of it may be on the same artist level as Prog Rock. If to you all Prog Metal is simply "metal with keyboards", then there is no basis for discussion ... you wouldn't understand any of my arguments. So forgive me if I don't try to explain for the 42nd time why I think that Prog Rock and Prog Metal can get along fine ... instead I'll listen to the new Canvas Solaris album that I bought today ... interesting music BETWEEN Rock and Metal. 
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11985
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:45 |
Aaron wrote:
it would be great if prog metal was kicked off this site, then would wouldn't need all those gay ads that are everywhere |
Anyone with an IQ higher than their shoe size got an opinion? 
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AtLossForWords
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:47 |
Tony R wrote:
AtLossForWords wrote:
Any great research database has all of the information that can be gathered on the main topic, but it also has other topics that have a direct and important relation to the main topic.
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Yes but this database is specific to Prog Rock! We are not "Allmusic" we are very specific... |
What important is that the music is somehow related to prog rock. For example Opeth's relation to Katatonia is important in relations of prog metal. Katatonia had a lot of influence on Opeth's music, a great friendship, and made somewhat progressive music themselves.
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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Raff
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24439
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:53 |
Tony R wrote:
Aaron wrote:
it would be great if prog metal was kicked off this site, then would wouldn't need all those gay ads that are everywhere |
Anyone with an IQ higher than their shoe size got an opinion? |
I think there's very little to add to such a statement... And I wish that people stopped using the word "gay" as a blanket derogatory term. As to kicking PM off the site, I think the suggestion doesn't even deserve an answer.
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MajesterX
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 30 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 513
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:57 |
Peter Rideout wrote:
If what unites all the diverse music(s) here is the adjective "prog" (or "progressive") in front of (or after) the original category, as in "prog metal," "prog rock," "prog folk," etc, then where are the "prog country," "prog rap," "prog disco/dance" "prog soul" "prog ska," etc, artists?
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Are you implying that metal is a distant from rock as rap is as distant from rock? I think that you are forgetting that Metal is really a sub-genre of Rock. You say "metal has now become prog". No, only Prog metal has become prog!  The reason prog metal is so popular here is the fact that prog metal is new and different, and instead of talking about bands like the Flower Kings and Spock's Beard (both of which I love) who do nothing different than the 70's bands to such an extent that some argue that they are not progressive, why not embrace bands that are innovative and original? There will always be people such as yourself who are "conservative prog fans" who do not "believe" in the new prog bands becoming popular because they are different. no offense, of couse.
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GoldenSpiral
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3839
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:57 |
Prog rock and prog metal are inseperable, as they stand under the ubiquitous umbrella known as 'progressive'. There are many kinds of progressive music (as this site so graciously displays), and prog metal is just one of them. The same ideals that separate prog rock from regular rock are the same that separate prog metal from other metal. If you don't like metal, that's quite fine, you don't have to listen to it. There are still many progressive bands making great music that have nothing at all to do with metal. Try some modern experimental music or post-rock perhaps? 
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 38831
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:11 |
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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:18 |
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I do believe Prog is becoming metal, because when prog was originally around it was an agressive,
heavy, uncompromising music of elaborate lengths with contrasts between
quiet moving pieces and thunderous epic sounds. The vocals
weren't always the main focus, and often featured different styles to
their singing to represent different styles in the music. This
description could mirror either Genesis fronted by Peter Gabriel in the
early 70s or just as easily be talking about Opeth today. It's the
times that have changed, but the music is relatively the same - just
fitting with the surrounding context.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:20 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Peter Rideout wrote:
Before you respond, please take a thorough look around the site. It seems to me that roughly half of the topics are about metal, and at least half of our members are here primarily because of metal, and the way metal has now become "prog."
If what unites all the diverse music(s) here is the adjective "prog" (or "progressive") in front of (or after) the original category, as in "prog metal," "prog rock," "prog folk," etc, then where are the "prog country," "prog rap," "prog disco/dance" "prog soul" "prog ska," etc, artists? If metal can be so easily added here, why not country? Does the appearance of the vague term "prog" in front of an long-standing category really mean "good," "complex" or "non-commercial?" (If so, clearly define -- not subjectively -- those terms in a musical context, please! )
I assure you, there is good, more complex, non-commercial country out there, and I am told that intelligent, "above average" rap exists too.
So why is metal apparently favoured as an example of "progressive" music? Twenty years from now, will "prog" basically mean metal, or at least "technically-accomplished metal with keyboards?"
To me, historic "prog" was an uplifting thing of beauty and grandeur. How do lightning-fast songs with vomited vocals about how everything sucks, and which celebrate the artist's disfunctionality and isolation from humanity, square with the (generally) uplifting (or at least very varied in subject and mood) "thrust" of classic progressive rock?
Are smiles, beauty, wonder and reaching out to our fellows in a spirit of unity all totally "uncool" now? Have complaining, blaming and "tearing down" taken the place of building up?
Too bad, I say. |
I'd love to respond ... but I won't, because you are generalising and bashing Prog Metal in your post, denying any possibility that some of it may be on the same artist level as Prog Rock. If to you all Prog Metal is simply "metal with keyboards", then there is no basis for discussion ... you wouldn't understand any of my arguments.
So forgive me if I don't try to explain for the 42nd time why I think that Prog Rock and Prog Metal can get along fine ... instead I'll listen to the new Canvas Solaris album that I bought today ... interesting music BETWEEN Rock and Metal.
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 Okay then Mike, all of that and my general dislike of modern metal aside for the moment (as I tried to say in subsequent posts), how about the main question(s):
Is "prog" -- in general, or inevitably -- becoming metal?
If "prog metal" and "prog folk" are in, why not put "prog country," "prog rap," etc, here as well?
Where is "prog" going?
And, believe it or not, I'd actually welcome the chance to sample any prog metal that you or others would think I might like. (Too bad we lost the MP3s  -- a review from a fan is one thing, but actually being able to hear some of the music, before buying it was a very useful, sales-enhancing thing, IMO!) I like some Purple, Heep, Hendrix, Rush, Steve Morse, Jeff Beck (I am thinking of his last couple of releases, in particular) -- all arguably at least "metal-esque" at times. I may not be as close-minded to 'heaviness" in music as you might think!
(And please bear in mind that lyrics matter to me a lot -- if they are overwhelmingly negative and bleak, I will not want to listen to the album more than once.)
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46843
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:23 |
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great topic Peter.... nothing really to say though.. I
don't think it's prog at all, but that's just my prog-view. Prog
was as much about artistic sensibilities as anything and I don't see
that in prog metal. It's all about technical... besides.. prog
was about expanding the boundries of accepted rock music... if so and
if it has been around for nearly 20 years... the pioneers deserve
credit.. those today.. what is prog about them. Regressive rock..
that's what it is. Guess I did have a bit to say. It's
just not my thing...
*micky slips an ELP disk into the CD player and all is good in the world of prog*
hmmm....t's like an old argument I used to make. Prog is... prog.
What passes for prog today is nothing more than 'progressive' (as an
adjective) rock/metal. They are different in my eyes. Prog
was a consious movement to bring artistic sensibilites to rock and
expand what people considered rock to encompass. Listen to an album
like LDF's album as a great example. Those who borrow elements of that
movement are 'progressive' rock. Yet are not prog. My two
cents as always.
so much for having nothing to say I guess...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10266
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:26 |
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I must admit I don't see the prog element in some of the "prog metal"
additions to this site (I'll just mention Devin Townsend). A
complicated rhythmic pattern in metal is not enough to make it prog;
there is a lot more that has to be taken into account. The most
important is in my opinion that prog has to do with a certain kind of
sound which I miss in most so-called prog metal.
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
Status: Offline
Points: 5308
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:32 |
Peter, have you sampled the song the link to which I posted?
-- Ivan
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sig
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GoldenSpiral
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3839
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:32 |
BaldFriede wrote:
I must admit I don't see the prog element in some of the "prog metal"
additions to this site (I'll just mention Devin Townsend). A
complicated rhythmic pattern in metal is not enough to make it prog;
there is a lot more that has to be taken into account. The most
important is in my opinion that prog has to do with a certain kind of
sound which I miss in most so-called prog metal.
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Then what do you consider "prog-metal"?
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:34 |
GoldenSpiral wrote:
Prog rock and prog metal are inseperable, as they stand under the ubiquitous umbrella known as 'progressive'. There are many kinds of progressive music (as this site so graciously displays), and prog metal is just one of them. The same ideals that separate prog rock from regular rock are the same that separate prog metal from other metal.
If you don't like metal, that's quite fine, you don't have to listen to it. There are still many progressive bands making great music that have nothing at all to do with metal. Try some modern experimental music or post-rock perhaps?
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Yes -- to give only one example, I quite enjoyed the Godspeed You Black Emperor that I've heard. That seems to be new and truly "progressive" (though arguably Can and others of their ilk really blazed that trail).
I certainly don't write off all new music, and "prog" is only a small part of my overall listening menu.
Every time I touch upon my dislike of metal, and disdain for/inability to relate to its (generally dark) lyrical tendencies, I am assumed by some to be a close-minded, "stuck in the 70s" classic symphonic prog purist -- I am not!
Thanks for acknowledging my "right" not to like (what I've heard of) today's metal, without my therefore being musically timid, or some kind of close-minded "progsnob." 
Edited by Peter Rideout - July 03 2006 at 14:39
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:37 |
ivansfr0st wrote:
Peter, have you sampled the song the link to which I posted?
-- Ivan |
No -- where is it?
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
Status: Offline
Points: 5308
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:40 |
At the bottom of my first post in this thread, on the first page.
-- Ivan
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sig
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10266
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Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:41 |
GoldenSpiral wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
I must admit I don't see the prog element in some of the "prog metal"
additions to this site (I'll just mention Devin Townsend). A
complicated rhythmic pattern in metal is not enough to make it prog;
there is a lot more that has to be taken into account. The most
important is in my opinion that prog has to do with a certain kind of
sound which I miss in most so-called prog metal.
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Then what do you consider "prog-metal"?
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Ice Age, for example. They have clear prog elements in their music,
beside their metal aspect. I really like them (though the singer
doesn't convince me).
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Is Prog becoming Metal?
