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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2004 at 09:06
Originally posted by necromancing necromancing wrote:

Fripp and Crimson are gods.

Cobain was a talent-less wreck who foolishly ended his own life.

There is NO truth to the media-made myth that Cobain "saved rock". I'll take Warrant, Winger, Slaughter and New Kids On The Block over Blink 182, Sum 41, Linkin Park or Britney Spears any 8 days of the week.  

Nothing changed because of Nirvana or "Smells Like Teen Spirit". Mainstream music is as bad now as it's ever been. Despite the 10th anniversary hype, I don't think he's missed at all. "Flash in the pan" is the correct term I believe.

The only thing Cobain ever proved to his deluded legion of angst-ridden teenagers, was that he sucked at playing guitar. Those same kids in 1991-1994 should have been listening to Steve Howe and Steve Hackett unload their six strings.

Grunge is dead - prog is coming back...show no mercy to bad music.

Fripp and Crimson are not Gods.

Cobain had a talent for writing songs that appealed to a large cross-section of music-lovers - not everyone, of course, but the almost tangible attitude and raw energy he put in was something quite unique. Nirvana were overhyped - that's part of what killed him; he had become the very thing he set out to try to destroy; an icon.

Cobain did not save rock, it's true, but Warrant, Winger, Slaughter and New Kids On The Block are all talentless rubbish, while Blink 182, Sum 41, Linkin Park or Britney Spears are all more talented than the former. Linkin Park especially have assisted in the revitalisation of rock in recent years with great melodies, angst-ridden generic lyrics and the combination of Rap, Metal and Boy Band in a way that Rage Against The Machine could only dream of.

Nirvana never wanted to be mainstream - that was the point. They DID, in their own small way, have a knock-on effect that is still being felt - the Nirvana Rock is still sending out ripples, you might say!

Cobain became another rock legend like the appalling list of casualties before him. He wrote (and borrowed) some nice riffs - but it's the sum of the parts, not the parts individually that matter. Nevermind is an AWESOME album, with very few weak points. It's great if something has pd you off and you want to work out some aggression.

The trouble with Howe and Hackett is that you require several brain cells to be in operation simultaneously when you listen to them. The main problem with prog as a genre is that there is a lot of up itself, over-technical, directionless and just plain boring noodling. Sometimes you just want some mindless fun - like the Rolling Stones sang "I know it's only Rock'n'Roll but I like it!".

(dons flame-retardent suit...)

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 01:09

Quote Cobain did not save rock, it's true, but Warrant, Winger, Slaughter and New Kids On The Block are all talentless rubbish, while Blink 182, Sum 41, Linkin Park or Britney Spears are all more talented than the former.

Really? Show me the evidence. If I believe what I see, I'll believe you! The prob is with your argument: Britney canNOT sing. No way. She sounds like a lamer version of Paula Abdul. Christina Aguilera? Now she has a voice! Blink's not much, but that's still a better "band" (barely) than Sum or Linkin.  However, all of these guys pretty much do the 4/4 thing, and I doubt any of their guitar players can do much beyond strum chords and turn the distortion on their pedals all the way up. I am NOT a fan of Warrant, Winger, Slaughter, etc., but keep in mind some of those guys were doing it for the money, and Winger had Dixie Dregs drummer Rod Morgenstein! Kip Winger's also a better bassist than he lets on to be (big deal, tho).

Quote Linkin Park especially have assisted in the revitalisation of rock in recent years with great melodies, angst-ridden generic lyrics and the combination of Rap, Metal and Boy Band in a way that Rage Against The Machine could only dream of.

Okay, you've proven yourself to be a Linkin fan. Great melodies? Don't hear 'em. Angst-ridden lyrics? Yeah, like everyone else and their cousins. Generic?? Absolutely! (You dug yourself into a hole, there, mate.) And, excuse me, but LP's guys couldn't outplay Tim Commerford, Brad Wilk, or Tom Morello any day of the week. Those three guys are very, very good (Tim is a lot  better than what you hear on album, I'd put money down on it). LP couldn't dust RATM's gear.  



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 01:15
 Anyone remember that 70s show Different Strokes?
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 01:24

Can you wait outside, please? We're having a discussion!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

{Just kidding!}

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 03:07

Again, I must reaffirm that Robert Fripp and King Crimson are indeed rock-GODS!

Now on Cobain. The media has over hyped the significance of Nirvana to the point where they are forcing the myth down our throats. I mean, I enjoy Nirvana as much as the next person. If their songs come on the radio, I probably won’t reach to turn it off. But please, the world is not a better place because of Kurt Cobain music, or any of the sorry bands you mentioned with the exception of Rage Against the Machine who are anti-establishment, and therefore fit into the brotherhood alongside prog-rockers.

.

The fact is, bands like Blink 182, Sum 41 and Linkin Park are talentless robots, promoted by a fascist corporate music industry that is aim at an unsophisticated audience. Their music is tailored for easy consumption.

I guy at my work was in one of these “pop-punk” bands but quit when they got signed to a major label. Some record company jerk came in and told them to play simpler melodies and to “dumb down” their music for more wide spread appeal. The band basically broke up because the guy who quit wanted to steer their sound away from pop-punk to incorporate things like Radiohead and Pink Floyd.

So please, help us keep prog music alive by NEVER buying another Linkin Park or Britney Spears CD again! Sure I’m elitist, but I’m not ashamed.

More mellotrons and 10:00+ minute songs!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 03:17
Originally posted by Peter Rideout Peter Rideout wrote:

 Anyone remember that 70s show Different Strokes?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 03:22
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by necromancing necromancing wrote:

Fripp and Crimson are gods.

Cobain was a talent-less wreck who foolishly ended his own life.

There is NO truth to the media-made myth that Cobain "saved rock". I'll take Warrant, Winger, Slaughter and New Kids On The Block over Blink 182, Sum 41, Linkin Park or Britney Spears any 8 days of the week.  

Nothing changed because of Nirvana or "Smells Like Teen Spirit". Mainstream music is as bad now as it's ever been. Despite the 10th anniversary hype, I don't think he's missed at all. "Flash in the pan" is the correct term I believe.

The only thing Cobain ever proved to his deluded legion of angst-ridden teenagers, was that he sucked at playing guitar. Those same kids in 1991-1994 should have been listening to Steve Howe and Steve Hackett unload their six strings.

Grunge is dead - prog is coming back...show no mercy to bad music.

Fripp and Crimson are not Gods.

Cobain had a talent for writing songs that appealed to a large cross-section of music-lovers - not everyone, of course, but the almost tangible attitude and raw energy he put in was something quite unique. Nirvana were overhyped - that's part of what killed him; he had become the very thing he set out to try to destroy; an icon.

Cobain did not save rock, it's true, but Warrant, Winger, Slaughter and New Kids On The Block are all talentless rubbish, while Blink 182, Sum 41, Linkin Park or Britney Spears are all more talented than the former. Linkin Park especially have assisted in the revitalisation of rock in recent years with great melodies, angst-ridden generic lyrics and the combination of Rap, Metal and Boy Band in a way that Rage Against The Machine could only dream of.

Nirvana never wanted to be mainstream - that was the point. They DID, in their own small way, have a knock-on effect that is still being felt - the Nirvana Rock is still sending out ripples, you might say!

Cobain became another rock legend like the appalling list of casualties before him. He wrote (and borrowed) some nice riffs - but it's the sum of the parts, not the parts individually that matter. Nevermind is an AWESOME album, with very few weak points. It's great if something has pd you off and you want to work out some aggression.

The trouble with Howe and Hackett is that you require several brain cells to be in operation simultaneously when you listen to them. The main problem with prog as a genre is that there is a lot of up itself, over-technical, directionless and just plain boring noodling. Sometimes you just want some mindless fun - like the Rolling Stones sang "I know it's only Rock'n'Roll but I like it!".

(dons flame-retardent suit...)

 

Fripp is GOD period.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 03:53

Quote  However, all of these guys pretty much do the 4/4 thing, and I doubt any of their guitar players can do much beyond strum chords and turn the distortion on their pedals all the way up.

Nothing wrong with that! Writing good music has bugger all to do with using 11/9 time signatures all over the place, clusters of hemidemisemiquaver runs and 3-hour solos - although all those things can be good. It's like saying someone who just won the world prize for the most fantastic scones is useless because they make a crap souffle. Who cares? Good scones are good scones, even though the ingredients and composition are very simple.

Quote

Okay, you've proven yourself to be a Linkin fan. Great melodies? Don't hear 'em. Angst-ridden lyrics? Yeah, like everyone else and their cousins. Generic?? Absolutely! (You dug yourself into a hole, there, mate.)

I like Linkin Park because they sound good to me. You don't like the melodies? OK. That's prolly because you like different tunes to me. Generic - yes, but it takes a special type of talent to make lyrics that wide-reaching, hence LP are so popular, because the lyrics speak very well to a lot of different people. The Beatles specialised in writing generic lyrics, although certain popular themes cropped up, like Love and Peace (odd, really, given that it was the 1960s...). I see no holes or problems with anyone who is good at generic lyrics - it's really difficult. I'm still trying (as a lyricist) to write lyrics that mean many things to many people.

OK, I dislike all the bands you mentioned, so I said Britney was more talented to get a rise (bad, bad Cert!) - I know she's rubbish and can't sing - to mime at a "Live" concert is excrable, IMNSHO). NKOTB used to mime as well, so I believe you may need a spade? Blink 182 are a bit older and more experienced than Sum41 - who are completely bland - and I've seen both bands live as well, and they could well be the same band really.

However, just because a band can play 5 chords it does not mean they are the next King Crimson.

Quote

And, excuse me, but LP's guys couldn't outplay Tim Commerford, Brad Wilk, or Tom Morello any day of the week. Those three guys are very, very good (Tim is a lot  better than what you hear on album, I'd put money down on it). LP couldn't dust RATM's gear.  

Ah. A "RATM" fan. Depends what you mean by "outplay". LP write much better material - better riffs, better melodies, subtle arrangements, light and shade - if you haven't heard the strong melodies, you really ought to listen to them instead of sitting there going "Horrible, spotty little boyband - I must not like...".

One concession; maybe LP ought to write a thank you letter to RATM for some of the riffs they managed to improve upon. The other problems with RATM (apart from the up themselves attitude) was that the riffs were almost there (so unsatisfying - a little more time in the studio and they might have got the idea) - and they needed a new producer. On every album. Less really can be more, in the right context. RATM do not fit here just because they're anti-establishment - hell, why not invite the Sex Pistols, the Dead Kennedys and Citizen Fish as well (not to mention the hundreds of other underground anti-establisment bands). Mainly, of course, RATM don't fit here 'coz they're pants.

It is indeed a sad state of affairs that Record Companies will try to dictate what a band can or cannot sound like - but if a band really has talent, they will find a way to let out the music within, even if it means finishing the 5-year sentence first.

I think Linkin Park are different to most pop-metal. In the current drought of good stuff, they seem to shine through, along with the highly technical System of a Down, the huge sounding Rammstein and the very quirky Korn. You can keep the rest.

Personally I prefer Gilmour or Rothery to Fripp - I'm not keen on the tangential noodling - although I recognise that Fripp is capable of good tunes and interesting structures

But YAY to the Mellotrons!!! - and YAY to Different Strokes!!!!!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 03:57

Quote Fripp is GOD period.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 05:48
Who cares about Cowbrain ?????????
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 06:48
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

For over a decade it has been said Kurt Cobain's (of the US Nirvana*) favourite album was Krimson's "Red". However, the Krimson expert Sid Smith tells me he has only traced  this statement back to what Cobain's former road manager said to somebody else, not to Cobain himself. Can somebody supply a more definite reference?




Ever wish you'd never started a thread.....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 06:52
Originally posted by dropForge dropForge wrote:

Can you wait outside, please? We're having a discussion!

{Just kidding!}

Go to it, by all means -- don't mind me.

Whoops! There goes your own tail again -- catch it, quick! Wink



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Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 08:25

The trouble with peace is that it only occurs between times of conflict.

I just love reasoned and rational debate - seasoned with some good old-fashioned mud-slinging. As long as nobody takes it personally, nobody gets hurt - and surely no-one takes anything seriously or personally except PROG on this forum?

On the original topic, there is a lot of hearsay and statements in various reviews here and there, but I can find no authoritative links that back up the claim that "Red" was one of Cobain's favourites. However, the grunginess, the distortion, the wailing metallic sounds are all there in Nirvana's music to add support to the theory. Play Nevermind back to back with Red and see what I mean (Nevermind first, of course - save the best 'til last!). Somehow I find In Utero to be less satisfying, although many cite it as the best.  Don't expect one to sound like the other, though - we're talking about musicians at opposite ends of the technical spectrum.

I read somewhere that "Red" owes its name to where the needles were on the mixing console during the recording sessions...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 18:16
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

For over a decade it has been said Kurt Cobain's (of the US Nirvana*) favourite album was Krimson's "Red". However, the Krimson expert Sid Smith tells me he has only traced  this statement back to what Cobain's former road manager said to somebody else, not to Cobain himself. Can somebody supply a more definite reference?




Ever wish you'd never started a thread.....


Mmmmm, I all I was trying to do was some serious research and nail the Cobain and Red quote. Trouble is the wrong sort of research results came about more  suited to  a social psychologist:i.e. indications as to  how some folks end up displaying the mental level of an 8 year old: "mind is better than yours" etc.  That is some form of progressive fundamentalism, a rock Afghanistan where some don't care to accept that others have different  opinions and prefer other bands. That's nonsense. Blinked inflexibity caused me to pack in the last prog discussion group,  although I've been with a jazz rock fusion group since the mid 90's, and it has never suffered this level of immaturity. I'm in my 50's and I still want to learnt; I still find myself  changing my ideas given sound reasoning. Music like any art form is abstract, try to define it in pure physically or mathematical terms and you still haven't  explain anything about how it effects others' souls and minds.

Telling me x is better than y is your subjective opinion. If I ask you to prove it, you can't . I respect your preferred tastes but don't have the fascist arrogance to insist what I should or shouldn't like. Suggest by all means but don't insist.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 22:13

Quote Writing good music has bugger all to do with using 11/9 time signatures all over the place, clusters of hemidemisemiquaver runs and 3-hour solos

That's a whole other animal. I'm just generalizing when it comes to a lot of these mainstream "rawk" bands. Yeah, they can crank it up, but volume isn't everything. And most of them ground themselves on the basic major & minor chords, and let open strings fill in the rest. That's why the term garage rock often comes up in new album reviews, eh? I'm still trying to figure out why bands like LP and Incubus have "turntablists" when you can never hear the guy over the guitars, drums & vocals.

Quote However, just because a band can play 5 chords it does not mean they are the next King Crimson.

No, they still need to figure out seventeen more chords so they can write some decent songs. Not that I haven't heard good 5-chord songs (AC/DC or Cheap Trick, anyone?).

Quote LP write much better material - better riffs, better melodies, subtle arrangements, light and shade

Er...I think not!   Please re-listen to all your RATM CDs, and thank me later.

Quote One concession; maybe LP ought to write a thank you letter to RATM for some of the riffs they managed to improve upon.

I'm going to love this part - care to provide any concrete examples? Since you think LP is the best new thing since the electric blender...

Quote I think Linkin Park are different to most pop-metal. In the current drought of good stuff, they seem to shine through, along with the highly technical System of a Down, the huge sounding Rammstein and the very quirky Korn. You can keep the rest.

Rammstein were kind of interesting for a bit (never saw them live, but I read reviews), and Serj Tankian probably makes all the difference in SOAD so that they don't simply sound like another Pantera (drummer ain't bad, either). What you think greatly differentiates LP from the rest of the crop is beyond me; I'm no fan of Incubus, but I'd wager they do LP one better, minus the crappy pseudo-rappy vox.

And then you mention the very "quirky" Korn. There's nothing quirky about that band save the fact that Jon Davis does NOT have a singing voice, or decent growling voice (or whatever), and he couldn't write good lyrics if he took a cocktail of the best illegal drugs you can buy locally. I don't understand the moderate success Korn is apparently enjoying, but in about a year or two, they may not even be a blip on the radar. Seldom have I heard a more pedestrian modern "rawk" band that attempts to sound "mean" and "heavy"! And Jon's "vocals" just make me laff!

I don't suppose you listen(ed) to Tool or Soundgarden? If you want to hear some good mainstream music...

I guess we'll just agree to disagree!

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 22:33

Ermm Imagine if we all loved the same woman (or exact physical type) -- dear sweet liitle Mariah excepted, natch.....

Or: "Lasagna is way better than spaghetti! I dare you to eat some lasagna and disagree with me!" Angry

I daresay you would think such an argument ridiculous? Stern Smile

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Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 22:54

You already made the same point, earlier. Yes, we understand you, but we're "discussing," anyway.

Next topic: White Stripes...worth a damn or not?

 

{J/K!}

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2004 at 23:49

  NOT...

Oooops, Knock it off boys. The White Stripes appeal to many of use middle aged, wispy haired proggers. They remind me of ...... The Knack, yeah, The Knack;

My Sharona, dada dada duh duh.... Myyyyyy Sharona.

Yeah, those were the days. Peter in a pair of Angel Flights, Jim bouncing off the walls of the local disco, Dude wearing high heeled sneakers..... ahh, those were the days, chaps.

 


Face Plant




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2004 at 00:03

Gilmour/Rothery/Fripp - guitar GODS!

I respect all the opinions voiced on this forum. Different strokes right?

The reason I love progressive bands so much (ex: Yes, Genesis, Marillion, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, etc.) is their willingness to be experimental and take risks - combined with the musical virtuosity to back it up. I mean I’ll give props to the Beatles for experimenting, and especially Miles Davis (genius) for his electric groups of the 70’s.

Honestly, these days all I hear on the radio or see on MTV/VH1 is commercial crap. (Mariah Carey, Britney Spears, Usher, Jay-Z, Linkin Park, Blink 182). Sorry - but it’s true. That’s why the only new bands I respect or listen to are people like: Radiohead, Sigur Ros, Wilco, Sonic Youth, etc. who aren’t afraid to experiment in this corporate run world. Perhaps they don’t have the same chops as Howe or Hackett, but they more than make up for it by not giving a crap what the so-called “music industry” thinks. And they still sell records and have loyal followings. Call me a music-fascist, but you can listen to whatever you want. For me, it’s all the music I mentioned above. And yes - I dig 4/4 too: White Stripes, Motorhead, Rolling Stones, U2. Different strokes right? Man cannot live by prog alone.

Cobain may have liked King Crimson’s “Red” album, but to my ears he never incorporated any of the experimentation and virtuosity that makes King Crimson special to this very day. IMO, the reality of Cobain’s music cannot live up to the media myth that has grown around him. In our constant need for contemporary idol worship, I suppose Cobain is soon going to be up there with Hendrix, Morrison, Bonham and Joplin one day. Leave a good corpse - “it’s better to burn out than fade away”. I mean, if you like Cobain/Linkin Park/Britney Spears- more power to you. But it’s NEVER going to be my cup of tea.

Thanks.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2004 at 03:44

There is no accounting for taste.

Quote

Mmmmm, I all I was trying to do was some serious research and nail the Cobain and Red quote. Trouble is the wrong sort of research results came about more  suited to  a social psychologist:i.e. indications as to  how some folks end up displaying the mental level of an 8 year old: "mind is better than yours" etc.  That is some form of progressive fundamentalism, a rock Afghanistan where some don't care to accept that others have different  opinions and prefer other bands. That's nonsense. Blinked inflexibity caused me to pack in the last prog discussion group,  although I've been with a jazz rock fusion group since the mid 90's, and it has never suffered this level of immaturity. I'm in my 50's and I still want to learnt; I still find myself  changing my ideas given sound reasoning. Music like any art form is abstract, try to define it in pure physically or mathematical terms and you still haven't  explain anything about how it effects others' souls and minds.

Telling me x is better than y is your subjective opinion. If I ask you to prove it, you can't . I respect your preferred tastes but don't have the fascist arrogance to insist what I should or shouldn't like. Suggest by all means but don't insist.

I'm not sure how long a thread stays serious on this forum - it annoys me a bit too that a kind of "who gives a monkeys" attitude creeps into most serious threads. OK - Guilty as charged! It reminds me of those superb History Today sketches by David Baddiel and Robert Newman, where two old university professors sit down to discuss a topic from history, and descend into a "See that? That's you, that is" type of childish argument. http://www.tmwe.co.uk/. I know I'm not the only one whose mind tends to revert to the inner child...

I tried to pull this thread back O/T a couple of posts ago - but the old "X is Crap Y is Fab" argument can be just sooooo irresistable - as you say, the psychology is fascinating. It would appear that not many respondents have bothered to look into the title topic (check the History Today videos on the link above - if you've never seen them before you'll get the point immediately - and also have some serious belly laughs!!).

Music, like any art, is not totally abstract; there are rules that govern structure which underpin all art. Many artists push the boundaries of those rules in order to bring abstraction and chaos, or at the very least some sense of their own self to their creation, but usually end up re-affirming the rules for the general populace. There are certain patterns which have a wide appeal, and there are biological and physiological as well as psychological reasons why one person may like a piece while another hates it. Music is not just an audible phenomenon after all; sound waves have a physical effect.

I could stick with this topic for HOURS

dropforge:

I've NEVER bought a RATM CD, but my brother is equally rabid about them and equally anti LP. So if you like one, you automatically hate the other? Different sides of the same coin? It's all "rap metal", surely? My brother reckons that LP nicked loads of RATM riffs. I don't hear that either. If they did, then they improved them to the point that they created some very slick new ones! (Oooops!! Bad, Bad Cert!!) If you think LP sound nothing like RATM, then I'm in full agreement, buddy! Let's agree on that, at least

I went round to my brothers, and allowed him to try to convert me, but I hate the production, and there's that "X" factor in the music that either does it for me or doesn't.  In this case, it most blatantly doesn't.

My brother also likes the bands you mention, who I also dislike, and also dismisses the bands I mentioned in much the same way - you're not my brother, are you??

It never fails to amaze me just how much strong feeling music can raise - it's such incredibly powerful stuff - amazing, considering it's only sound organised in time.

Back O/T:

Has anyone else played a Nirvana album back to back with Red? I think that, in absence of biographical material to back up Dick's original hypothesis, maybe progarchives could do some aural research (no sniggering at the back - it's spelt differently...).  I've just pulled out the bits that were most obvious to me - maybe someone will spot other links.

 

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