Kurt Cobain & "Red"

Cobain did not save rock, it's true, but Warrant, Winger, Slaughter and New Kids On The Block are all talentless rubbish, while Blink 182, Sum 41, Linkin Park or Britney Spears are all more talented than the former.

Really? Show me the evidence. If I believe what I see, I'll believe you! The prob is with your argument: Britney canNOT sing. No way. She sounds like a lamer version of Paula Abdul. Christina Aguilera? Now she has a voice! Blink's not much, but that's still a better "band" (barely) than Sum or Linkin.  However, all of these guys pretty much do the 4/4 thing, and I doubt any of their guitar players can do much beyond strum chords and turn the distortion on their pedals all the way up. I am NOT a fan of Warrant, Winger, Slaughter, etc., but keep in mind some of those guys were doing it for the money, and Winger had Dixie Dregs drummer Rod Morgenstein! Kip Winger's also a better bassist than he lets on to be (big deal, tho).

Linkin Park especially have assisted in the revitalisation of rock in recent years with great melodies, angst-ridden generic lyrics and the combination of Rap, Metal and Boy Band in a way that Rage Against The Machine could only dream of.

Okay, you've proven yourself to be a Linkin fan. Great melodies? Don't hear 'em. Angst-ridden lyrics? Yeah, like everyone else and their cousins. Generic?? Absolutely! (You dug yourself into a hole, there, mate.) And, excuse me, but LP's guys couldn't outplay Tim Commerford, Brad Wilk, or Tom Morello any day of the week. Those three guys are very, very good (Tim is a lot  better than what you hear on album, I'd put money down on it). LP couldn't dust RATM's gear.  

Edited by dropForge

Can you wait outside, please? We're having a discussion!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

{Just kidding!}

Peter Rideout wrote:  Anyone remember that 70s show Different Strokes?

However, all of these guys pretty much do the 4/4 thing, and I doubt any of their guitar players can do much beyond strum chords and turn the distortion on their pedals all the way up.

Nothing wrong with that! Writing good music has bugger all to do with using 11/9 time signatures all over the place, clusters of hemidemisemiquaver runs and 3-hour solos - although all those things can be good. It's like saying someone who just won the world prize for the most fantastic scones is useless because they make a crap souffle. Who cares? Good scones are good scones, even though the ingredients and composition are very simple.

Okay, you've proven yourself to be a Linkin fan. Great melodies? Don't hear 'em. Angst-ridden lyrics? Yeah, like everyone else and their cousins. Generic?? Absolutely! (You dug yourself into a hole, there, mate.)

I like Linkin Park because they sound good to me. You don't like the melodies? OK. That's prolly because you like different tunes to me. Generic - yes, but it takes a special type of talent to make lyrics that wide-reaching, hence LP are so popular, because the lyrics speak very well to a lot of different people. The Beatles specialised in writing generic lyrics, although certain popular themes cropped up, like Love and Peace (odd, really, given that it was the 1960s...). I see no holes or problems with anyone who is good at generic lyrics - it's really difficult. I'm still trying (as a lyricist) to write lyrics that mean many things to many people.

OK, I dislike all the bands you mentioned, so I said Britney was more talented to get a rise (bad, bad Cert!) - I know she's rubbish and can't sing - to mime at a "Live" concert is excrable, IMNSHO). NKOTB used to mime as well, so I believe you may need a spade? Blink 182 are a bit older and more experienced than Sum41 - who are completely bland - and I've seen both bands live as well, and they could well be the same band really.

However, just because a band can play 5 chords it does not mean they are the next King Crimson.

And, excuse me, but LP's guys couldn't outplay Tim Commerford, Brad Wilk, or Tom Morello any day of the week. Those three guys are very, very good (Tim is a lot  better than what you hear on album, I'd put money down on it). LP couldn't dust RATM's gear.

Ah. A "RATM" fan. Depends what you mean by "outplay". LP write much better material - better riffs, better melodies, subtle arrangements, light and shade - if you haven't heard the strong melodies, you really ought to listen to them instead of sitting there going "Horrible, spotty little boyband - I must not like...".

One concession; maybe LP ought to write a thank you letter to RATM for some of the riffs they managed to improve upon. The other problems with RATM (apart from the up themselves attitude) was that the riffs were almost there (so unsatisfying - a little more time in the studio and they might have got the idea) - and they needed a new producer. On every album. Less really can be more, in the right context. RATM do not fit here just because they're anti-establishment - hell, why not invite the Sex Pistols, the Dead Kennedys and Citizen Fish as well (not to mention the hundreds of other underground anti-establisment bands). Mainly, of course, RATM don't fit here 'coz they're pants.

It is indeed a sad state of affairs that Record Companies will try to dictate what a band can or cannot sound like - but if a band really has talent, they will find a way to let out the music within, even if it means finishing the 5-year sentence first.

I think Linkin Park are different to most pop-metal. In the current drought of good stuff, they seem to shine through, along with the highly technical System of a Down, the huge sounding Rammstein and the very quirky Korn. You can keep the rest.

Personally I prefer Gilmour or Rothery to Fripp - I'm not keen on the tangential noodling - although I recognise that Fripp is capable of good tunes and interesting structures

But YAY to the Mellotrons!!! - and YAY to Different Strokes!!!!!

Edited by Certif1ed

Who cares about Cowbrain ?????????

dropForge wrote: Can you wait outside, please? We're having a discussion! {Just kidding!}

Go to it, by all means -- don't mind me.

Whoops! There goes your own tail again -- catch it, quick!

Edited by Peter Rideout

Jim Garten wrote: Dick Heath wrote: For over a decade it has been said Kurt Cobain's (of the US Nirvana*) favourite album was Krimson's "Red". However, the Krimson expert Sid Smith tells me he has only traced  this statement back to what Cobain's former road manager said to somebody else, not to Cobain himself. Can somebody supply a more definite reference? Ever wish you'd never started a thread.....

Mmmmm, I all I was trying to do was some serious research and nail the Cobain and Red quote. Trouble is the wrong sort of research results came about more  suited to  a social psychologist:i.e. indications as to  how some folks end up displaying the mental level of an 8 year old: "mind is better than yours" etc.  That is some form of progressive fundamentalism, a rock Afghanistan where some don't care to accept that others have different  opinions and prefer other bands. That's nonsense. Blinked inflexibity caused me to pack in the last prog discussion group,  although I've been with a jazz rock fusion group since the mid 90's, and it has never suffered this level of immaturity. I'm in my 50's and I still want to learnt; I still find myself  changing my ideas given sound reasoning. Music like any art form is abstract, try to define it in pure physically or mathematical terms and you still haven't  explain anything about how it effects others' souls and minds.

Telling me x is better than y is your subjective opinion. If I ask you to prove it, you can't . I respect your preferred tastes but don't have the fascist arrogance to insist what I should or shouldn't like. Suggest by all means but don't insist.

 Imagine if we all loved the same woman (or exact physical type) -- dear sweet liitle Mariah excepted, natch.....

Or: "Lasagna is way better than spaghetti! I dare you to eat some lasagna and disagree with me!"

I daresay you would think such an argument ridiculous?

  NOT...

Oooops, Knock it off boys. The White Stripes appeal to many of use middle aged, wispy haired proggers. They remind me of ...... The Knack, yeah, The Knack;

My Sharona, dada dada duh duh.... Myyyyyy Sharona.

Yeah, those were the days. Peter in a pair of Angel Flights, Jim bouncing off the walls of the local disco, Dude wearing high heeled sneakers..... ahh, those were the days, chaps.

 

There is no accounting for taste.

Mmmmm, I all I was trying to do was some serious research and nail the Cobain and Red quote. Trouble is the wrong sort of research results came about more  suited to  a social psychologist:i.e. indications as to  how some folks end up displaying the mental level of an 8 year old: "mind is better than yours" etc.  That is some form of progressive fundamentalism, a rock Afghanistan where some don't care to accept that others have different  opinions and prefer other bands. That's nonsense. Blinked inflexibity caused me to pack in the last prog discussion group,  although I've been with a jazz rock fusion group since the mid 90's, and it has never suffered this level of immaturity. I'm in my 50's and I still want to learnt; I still find myself  changing my ideas given sound reasoning. Music like any art form is abstract, try to define it in pure physically or mathematical terms and you still haven't  explain anything about how it effects others' souls and minds. Telling me x is better than y is your subjective opinion. If I ask you to prove it, you can't . I respect your preferred tastes but don't have the fascist arrogance to insist what I should or shouldn't like. Suggest by all means but don't insist.

I'm not sure how long a thread stays serious on this forum - it annoys me a bit too that a kind of "who gives a monkeys" attitude creeps into most serious threads. OK - Guilty as charged! It reminds me of those superb History Today sketches by David Baddiel and Robert Newman, where two old university professors sit down to discuss a topic from history, and descend into a "See that? That's you, that is" type of childish argument. http://www.tmwe.co.uk/. I know I'm not the only one whose mind tends to revert to the inner child...

I tried to pull this thread back O/T a couple of posts ago - but the old "X is Crap Y is Fab" argument can be just sooooo irresistable - as you say, the psychology is fascinating. It would appear that not many respondents have bothered to look into the title topic (check the History Today videos on the link above - if you've never seen them before you'll get the point immediately - and also have some serious belly laughs!!).

Music, like any art, is not totally abstract; there are rules that govern structure which underpin all art. Many artists push the boundaries of those rules in order to bring abstraction and chaos, or at the very least some sense of their own self to their creation, but usually end up re-affirming the rules for the general populace. There are certain patterns which have a wide appeal, and there are biological and physiological as well as psychological reasons why one person may like a piece while another hates it. Music is not just an audible phenomenon after all; sound waves have a physical effect.

I could stick with this topic for HOURS

dropforge:

I've NEVER bought a RATM CD, but my brother is equally rabid about them and equally anti LP. So if you like one, you automatically hate the other? Different sides of the same coin? It's all "rap metal", surely? My brother reckons that LP nicked loads of RATM riffs. I don't hear that either. If they did, then they improved them to the point that they created some very slick new ones! (Oooops!! Bad, Bad Cert!!) If you think LP sound nothing like RATM, then I'm in full agreement, buddy! Let's agree on that, at least

I went round to my brothers, and allowed him to try to convert me, but I hate the production, and there's that "X" factor in the music that either does it for me or doesn't.  In this case, it most blatantly doesn't.

My brother also likes the bands you mention, who I also dislike, and also dismisses the bands I mentioned in much the same way - you're not my brother, are you??

It never fails to amaze me just how much strong feeling music can raise - it's such incredibly powerful stuff - amazing, considering it's only sound organised in time.

Back O/T:

Has anyone else played a Nirvana album back to back with Red? I think that, in absence of biographical material to back up Dick's original hypothesis, maybe progarchives could do some aural research (no sniggering at the back - it's spelt differently...).  I've just pulled out the bits that were most obvious to me - maybe someone will spot other links.