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BaldJean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 07:51
Originally posted by darqDean darqDean wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by The-Bullet The-Bullet wrote:

On the face of it I certainly agree that there should be a vast amount of life out there.And if there is, then you would think that advanced life is very probable also. Now with regards to the constraints of travel distances and maximum speed etc. - remember that we sent robots to Mars and so any advanced civilization who were so inclined could build self replicating robot "explorers" to completely explore the Milky Way galaxy within a few tens/hundreds of thousands of years. Yet we have not seen any evidence oy these yet . Maybe we are alone after all, or at least our "alleged" intelligence is unique .

wouldn't it be a big irony if we ourselves were this advanced civilization? instead of sending robots we sent genetic material. not that I really believe it though
Of course there is no reason why we cannot be the most advanced civilisation, after all, someone has to be. Which is probably not the most comforting thought in the Universe given how uncivilised we can be at times. The other sobering thought is that the genetic material we are currently seeding the solar system with is not our own, but bacteriological and/or viral - we haven't spread our DNA, but we have given the Universe a nasty cold.
 
The Milky Way Galaxy is 100,000 lightyears in diameter and about 1,000 lightyears thick at the core, so it would take millions of years to cross it at sub-light speed, and billions of years to completely explore it. Since the self-replicating robot idea is effectively Brownian motion, these timescales can be increased by several magnitudes, (ie 10s or 100s of millions to cross it and 10s or 100s of billions to explore it)
 
Given that the Milky Way is probably only 6 billion years old, any advanced civilisation that possess interstellar travel has not been around long enough to explore anything other than their immediate neighbourhood, which makes them finding our Solar System out here in the cul-de-sac of the inner rim of the Orion Arm highly unlikely.
 

I did not mean we are the highest civilization ourselves, but we may be the offspring of it


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 08:20
There's a lot of talk about the speed of light and how it is (or it is not) possible to move faster than it. However, many  sci-fi writers have shown us that it is not necessary to travel that fast to visit other planets: a well advanced civilisation could create gigantic space-travelling colonies inhabited by aliens who don't care about travelling for thousands of years.
Yet, this is only science fiction. I think scientists (or should I say military authorities around the world) should do their best first to find out what UFOs really are (top-secret vehicles? Plasma discharges? Steven Spielberg's new filming set?).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 09:00
It's probable that there's life somewhere else in the universe, but I don't believe in UFOs. I mean, we haven't found them yet, so why must they necessarily have found us? How would they know where to look?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 10:00
Originally posted by darqDean darqDean wrote:

Given that the Milky Way is probably only 6 billion years old, any advanced civilisation that possess interstellar travel has not been around long enough to explore anything other than their immediate neighbourhood, which makes them finding our Solar System out here in the cul-de-sac of the inner rim of the Orion Arm highly unlikely.
 


Good thing too - they'd just destroy the planet to make way for a new interstellar highway.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 10:02
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


I did not mean we are the highest civilization ourselves, but we may be the offspring of it


Ah...the panspermia/exogenesis hypothesis?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 10:20
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


I did not mean we are the highest civilization ourselves, but we may be the offspring of it
 
In light of the fact that we now can clone and are active in genetic engineering, would it be such a implausible idea that we are the result of an advanced culture's experiment?
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 10:22
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


I did not mean we are the highest civilization ourselves, but we may be the offspring of it


Ah...the panspermia/exogenesis hypothesis?

yes. Svante Arrhenius. I always found that concept very interesting and intriguing, although I am no natural scientist


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 13:49
To go off on a slight tangent, I want to ask Patrick and Dean (and anyone else, for that matter), to answer the following.  Bare in mind, I am not refuting the questioning, I am genuinely interested in knowing the answer, so I can (semi-) coherently answer others who may ask similar questions in the future.

The question:

How did inanimate matter turn into animate matter within the Evolutionary cycle and can it be proved with experiments?

It is one of those questions people seem to avoid answering, so I am hoping someone can give me a coherent answer that I can understand.  I don't doubt the theory of evolution at all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 13:59
Sounds like you are asking about abiogenesis - basically the origin of life on this planet.

Since I'd probably have to consult it anyway, instead of providing long-winded explanations of the Miller-Urey experiment and other facets of current thinking, I'll just point you to the wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

Perhaps others more knowledgeable in biochemistry can provide their own insight.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 14:07
Originally posted by James James wrote:

To go off on a slight tangent, I want to ask Patrick and Dean (and anyone else, for that matter), to answer the following.  Bare in mind, I am not refuting the questioning, I am genuinely interested in knowing the answer, so I can (semi-) coherently answer others who may ask similar questions in the future.

The question:

How did inanimate matter turn into animate matter within the Evolutionary cycle and can it be proved with experiments?

It is one of those questions people seem to avoid answering, so I am hoping someone can give me a coherent answer that I can understand.  I don't doubt the theory of evolution at all.
 
I am not the best qualified to answer this but it can be understood in viewing how chemicals can react with each other, forming new compounds. Over time, these new compounds can grow or attach themselves to other compounds, complexing. From here you move on to proteins, then DNA, then viruses which are debated as being living organisms because they replicate themselves.
 
The Wiki article helps out immensely. My post came up just after it. Confused
 
 
 


Edited by StyLaZyn - April 16 2008 at 14:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 14:08
I'll take a look after I've eaten.  I cannot take things in on an empty stomach.

Well basically what I'm asking is:

There was (supposedly brainless) inanimate matter, then there was animate matter (which had a brain).

It's the middle ground I'm seeking.  Have scientists actually been able to create animate life from inanimate matter?


Edited by James - April 16 2008 at 14:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 14:10
Thanks guys, I'll wait for Dean's response too and take it from there. Thumbs%20Up

I just wanted to further my understanding on this subject matter.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 14:13
Originally posted by James James wrote:

I'll take a look after I've eaten.  I cannot take things in on an empty stomach.

Well basically what I'm asking is:

There was (supposedly brainless) inanimate matter, then there was animate matter (which had a brain).

It's the middle ground I'm seeking.  Have scientists have actually been able to crate animate life from inanimate matter?
 
You need to understand as well, this stuff took a very, very long time to happen. Pure chance is why we are here in the form we are. Hopping from chemicals to living breathing carbon units didn't happen over a few days.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 14:15
Oh I realise this.  This is why (going back onto subject) I am wary about the fact there could be life on other planets.

If it was pure chance on our Earth, what is the likelihood of it happening on other planets?

I also heard somewhere that if a white-skinned group of people moved to a very hot area, after many generations, their skin would slowly get darker, because of the different climate and adaptation (kind of obvious, when you think about it), but how quick would a process like this take?


Edited by James - April 16 2008 at 14:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 14:36
Ha, Pat and Rich to it - obviously they have evolved faster fingers to match their faster brains. LOL
 
I was going to say the same thing as Pat (and give the same wiki link) - I too am no biochemist or molecular biologist and only have a scant knowledge of the subject because it is a field of interest for me, but not my actual field of knowledge.
 
As Rich says basically it's small steps over a very, very long period of time. This has produced all the individual building blocks that resulted in the animation of matter, but the actual process and a definitive model has yet to be produced, and certainly not demonstrated in any lab environment.
 
One small point - animate matter does not necessarily imply a brain or even a nervous system - those are inherent in more complex systems than those present at the origin of life - simple animate matter is merely a chemical process. Where evolution comes into play is where these simple animate matter "organisms" survive into subsequent generations.
 
If it was pure chance that it happened here, then there is exactly the same probability that it would happen on a different planet that had the same conditions. What we cannot predict is whether every chaotic event that occurred in our existence is necessary for the process to work, or whether one minor difference halts the whole process - logic suggests that it is a fairly robust system that would defy most variations since life on Earth has survived several mass extinction events in its 4 billion year history.
 
 
/edit: I should haf spelw cheqked that before posting, but too am hingry and need to eat.


Edited by darqDean - April 16 2008 at 14:40
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 14:48
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Sounds like you are asking about abiogenesis - basically the origin of life on this planet.

Since I'd probably have to consult it anyway, instead of providing long-winded explanations of the Miller-Urey experiment and other facets of current thinking, I'll just point you to the wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

Perhaps others more knowledgeable in biochemistry can provide their own insight.

it seems to be a matter of definition for me. when do you call a conglomerate of molecules alive? well, it has to be able to reproduce itself and it has to have some kind of metabolism, meaning chemical processes are happening in it. and there should be a kind of membrane defining inside and outside. at least that's it for me from a philosophical point of view


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 15:01
Originally posted by darqDean darqDean wrote:

I expect there to be quite a lot of life in the Universe, as has been pointed out, the shear weight of numbers of stars in our galaxy and galaxies in the Universe means that by all probability if life exists on one measly planet on the outer rim of quite an unremarkable spiral galaxy then life must exist on countless others.
 
Some of it will be more advanced than us, some of it less so, most of it could be equally as advanced as we are, but never invented Tippex™ so they have never been able to correct the errors in their theories of semiconductor physics and therefore never entered the silicon age, not discovered radio-waves, split the atom or built the Toyota Prius, yet alone a space craft of any description. I say "most" for one simple reason - the only example we have suggests it takes life 4.5 billion years to "evolve" to our current level - and it took the Universe 9 billion years to create stars that were stable enough to support the creation of life, therefore all the Sun-like stars in the Universe that could start the life-cycle started at the same time ours did, so the majority of life in the Universe is at our level of evolution (give or take a few million years Wink).
 
The distance to the nearest stellar neighbour is 4 light-years away (24 trillion miles or 40 trillion km). The fastest vehicle we have is the Space Shuttle, which can travel at 18,000 mph (28,000kph). It would take the space shuttle 157,222 years to get there - this is long before we start worrying about how many Texaco service stations there are along the way to re-fuel it or how we would maintain and service a mechanical system to survive such a journey when bits fall off even the most reliable of systems at alarming regularity.
 
Even if the extraterrestrial life forms have invented a different propulsion system, Newtons laws still apply even if their civilisation doesn't possess apples and thus never had a Newton - energy is required to move a mass and to move it over a vast distance, a vast amount of energy is required.
 
Faster than light travel is simply impossible. Not improbable, impossible. This is not bad maths or selfish physics on our part, it's not the result of our scientists inventing "rules" that stop this from happening or them not thinking "outside the box" or simply "getting it wrong" - it is an absolute limit of the Universe and even extraterrestrial are governed by those same rules and laws, even if their maths is base-3, their physics is written in iambic-pentameter and their Einstein was a hotel clerk. Not believing in this limit is simply not enough to make it go away. (Neither would reading Science Fiction - the keyword there is the second one LOL)
 
Also, there is no magic system of trapdoors and wormholes that would enable matter to travel through them and arrive intact. Entering a singularity would convert all mass into energy, this energy could travel through a wormhole (if such things exist) and be expelled out of another singularity lightyears distant, where it may be converted back to mass - but without the coding-imprint of what that mass looked like when it first entered: you re-enter the Universe as radiation, then sub-atomic particles and then hydrogen - 4.5 billion years later you may have coalesced into a recognisable life-form, but you wouldn't be you anymore and 4.5 billion years hardly qualifies as "faster-than-light".
 
So in answer to the original question: No I don't believe in UFOs - where UFOs are vehicles for extraterrestrial lifeforms. A non-belief that is supported by the observation that the only reasons that these extraterrestrials appear to traverse the trillions of miles of empty space at enormous cost in energy and time is to abduct simpletons, goose cattle and make pretty patterns in wheat-fields. Shocked
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 15:13
Another thing to consider about space travel, where is our understanding of physics and the universe? Learning can be likened to evolution. We learn and grow more over time. Not to mention, we may one day discover that our theories and conceptions of the universe are not entirely accurate.
 
My point, there is a great amount of unknown and we currently project based on those things we know or theorize. Imagine in one or two hundred years what we may know. Are we in a "the world is flat" mode now?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 16:40
I don't think nobody has actually seen UFOs.... but on the other hand, I just think it is IMPOSSIBLE that in this universe, in which we are but a small sand grain (not even that) we can be so pretentious to believe we are the only living entities... the problem is, we may never know the answer... and for sure, WE will never know the answer.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 17:09
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Sounds like you are asking about abiogenesis - basically the origin of life on this planet.

Since I'd probably have to consult it anyway, instead of providing long-winded explanations of the Miller-Urey experiment and other facets of current thinking, I'll just point you to the wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

Perhaps others more knowledgeable in biochemistry can provide their own insight.

it seems to be a matter of definition for me. when do you call a conglomerate of molecules alive? well, it has to be able to reproduce itself and it has to have some kind of metabolism, meaning chemical processes are happening in it. and there should be a kind of membrane defining inside and outside. at least that's it for me from a philosophical point of view


Always an interesting question:  is a virus a lifeform?
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