The Prog Fan On The Other Side

Oh boy, this might go on a bit.

Edited by boo boo - May 13 2010 at 15:22

And those who argue that a band shouldn't be included because the musicians are not virtuosos or because they don't think the music good.

rushfan4 wrote: This thread http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65907 is a pretty good start.

That brings me to one of my beefs I often bring up.  I don't think of bands as being Prog per se so much as individual music/ albums.  To claim that, say, Hemispheres is not Prog would seem ludicrous to me, but to just pigeonhole artists/ bands as Prog or non-Prog to me is misguided (and for the purposes of this site, a narrow version of Prog is misguided).  I wouldn't describe everyhting Rush did as Prog, as is common with bands here, and I could also describe Rush as a Hard Rock band.  Genesis had a Prog period, as I see it, but I could say that Genesis is a pop band for albums.

I think it's helpful to think on the album level for the purposes of this site rather than debating whether a band/ artists is Prog or not.  Rush made Prog, but does that make the band itself Prog?  Of course you can describe bands using a genre description (it's a rock band meaning it plays rock), but in another sense the band is not the genre, it only plays the genre.

It's so common for diversity with artists who made so-called prog that narrow pigeon-holing can be problematic.  Some people talk of bands being fully-prog whose vast majority of music was not Prog.   A band can play many types of music.

Is Miles Davis Jazz-Rock Fusion? I wouldn't say so, but I would say he made various JRF albums.  Is he an important figure to JRF; yes.  He's also an important figure in jazz proper.  And too many get dismissed because people are unfamiliar with the works that gained the acts inclusion (or they have narrow views on what prog can be).

I just find the prog/ non-Prog dichotomy commonly far too simplistic when describing artists.  Many excluded from PA could be said to have made prog music (maybe not a sufficient amount for inclusion) and many included in PA mainly did not make Prog-music.  For that matter, what is prog is open to interpretation.  A lot of the music in the archives that I love, though Prog by PA category standards, I don't consider representative of Prog in a typical, rather generic sense.

I almost wish we could do away with the Prog label all together here.  Some of the music isn't even rock (mind you, I support having less rock-based music here and even opening up this site to non-rock progressive music that would not be applicaible under the current standards to make this into more of a modern progressive music site).

There's too many things which disgust me, but the #1 on that list has to be the collective overrating certain bands.  I can tell you for a fact that Dream Theater and Genesis do not deserve the high praise and pedestal that everyone on these boards gives them.


Edited by Nightshine - May 13 2010 at 13:11

Logan wrote: Nightshine wrote: There's too many things which disgust me, but the #1 on that list has to be the collective overrating certain bands.  I can tell you for a fact that Dream Theater and Genesis do not deserve the high praise and pedestal that everyone on these boards gives them. And I dislike blanket statements (and that overrated word I find commonly problematic here too).   If you honestly believe that everyone here praises Dream Theater, you haven't been around much (or Genesis for that matter).  I hope you're joking.

I'm not.

Logan wrote: Nightshine wrote: Logan wrote: Nightshine wrote: There's too many things which disgust me, but the #1 on that list has to be the collective overrating certain bands.  I can tell you for a fact that Dream Theater and Genesis do not deserve the high praise and pedestal that everyone on these boards gives them. And I dislike blanket statements (and that overrated word I find commonly problematic here too).   If you honestly believe that everyone here praises Dream Theater, you haven't been around much (or Genesis for that matter).  I hope you're joking. I'm not. Dream Theater has had more abuse thrown at it than just about any band I can think of in PA (heck, I've hopped on the DT hating bandwagon before).  Genesis gets a lot of scorn for its 80's and up albums. EDIT to add: There is no band I can think of that gets universal high praise here, and citing DT as an example of a band that gets high praise from everyone and is put on a pedestal by everyone is very misguided.  DT has provoked extremes of passion from the adulators and the detractors/ haters.  I think much of the disdain is more in response to the fans who are sometimes seen as way too enthusiastic and sometimes have had a rather juvenile reputation "DT pwns!", "DT the best!" than really directed at the band itself.  Someone who is a big name at this site has referred to DT fans as the "acne-scarred masses." I don't like DT, and hardly put it on a high pedestal, but I respect that other people like DT and I recognise its importance to "Prog Metal" (I'm not really a Prog Metal fan).  I used to love various Genesis albums, but it's not so much my cup of tea any more and I don't put it on a high pedestal (agian, I recognise its importance to Symphonic Prog, but I'm a more avant-oriented listener, and love jazz).  I think it's a good band; not that great according to my tastes or my particular yard-sticks, but I have no qualms with those who think it exemplary.  To each his or her own taste, but there is a great diversity to the music audiences at this site so such blanket statements are misguided.

Great to know that you can speak on the behalf of yourself.  However, I'm looking at the collective as a majority.

Also, your stance really doesn't change my opinion.


Edited by Nightshine - May 13 2010 at 14:30

And something a little more recent:

^duh cuz its the best Prog album 

Nightshine wrote: Touche.  However, I used Dream Theater and Genesis as examples, when it could be any band at a given moment.  IE: Selling England by the Pound lies at the top of PA's album list. Care to counterpoint that?

There is no need to counterpoint it, given the number of active members and the numbers of bands that the all (or at least most) of those people will have heard of then having those bands as being "popular" is not really surprising, it's just maths. Pick a lesser known band or even just a newer band and few people will know them, for example Anekdoten ride high with those that have heard them, but not everyone has - it's not bias, prejudice or narrowness, it's just maths.

Anyway. A few more.

Edited by boo boo - May 13 2010 at 15:45

... What do you find is the most exasperating opposing position to your own in the Prog community? Not the widest opposition, but the one that impacts you in the most particular way.

Not a whole lot of them really.