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rod65 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 248
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 Posted: May 13 2010 at 15:54 |
1. People who dismiss commercially successful bands or albums as definitively inferior 2. People who present their opinions on the quality of music as if they were objective facts with verifiable and unassailable criteria
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: May 13 2010 at 15:55 |
 Nightshine wrote:
There's too many things which disgust me, but the #1 on that list has to be the collective overrating certain bands. I can tell you for a fact that Dream Theater and Genesis do not deserve the high praise and pedestal that everyone on these boards gives them.
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People so arrogant that they think their opinion is worth more than mine.
WalterDigsTunes
"Are Within Temptation Prog?" threades. 
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: May 13 2010 at 16:02 |
rod65 wrote:
1. People who dismiss commercially successful bands or albums as definitively inferior
2. People who present their opinions on the quality of music as if they were objective facts with verifiable and unassailable criteria |
Oh god, a big yes on both counts.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Online
Points: 18966
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Posted: May 13 2010 at 16:08 |
Hi,
Logan ... that's a nice poll.
I think the real issue with DT is that some people are stuck on a "style" of music, and they liked a song or two in the early days, and all of a sudden when they get a powwow in 6 Degrees, it's NOT the song they heard before and it's quite different all around ... and the appreciation of a band drops.
In the end, it's not about the "style". It's about the output. Some people like Beethoven's 5th better. Some like the 9th ... and they are different. The issue becomes something like this ... DT doesn't have the right to not satisfy me with my music needs! ... and that is totally wrong, regardless of who the band is, and that person really needs to learn the meaning of the word "progressive" and then evaluate why they are here!
I don't happen to think that the later Genesis is not as good as the earlier Genesis, the musicianship is still very good, although some of us like to think that it was more pop oriented, and I have to admit that I fell out of it ... but then, I had fallen out of it when Peter Gabriel left and his massive interview with Melody Maker explained it well, and I side with the artist and the artistic vision, and Peter felt that he could not do more theater with Genesis! And in the end, he had to come down also and not be so "conceptual", and be too difficult to work with. But he surrounded himself with top knotch musicians, whom he knew would help him get better and closer to what he was hoping to do. It was not "theater" any more, but it had the makings for it if it needed to be turned into that.
But to think/say that Tony Banks, or Mike Rutherford did not improve as musicians, would be totaly wrong ... they had to! They lost some excellent people along the way. ... so yeah, it may be that it became a little more "pop" ... and it was not your preference or mine, but they were still very good!
But if you asked me 50 years from now, I would say that Genesis was an excellent group with a magnificent output of music ... same for Dream Theater ... same for Pink Floyd ... same for Tangerine Dream ... same for Klaus Schulze ... same for Mike Oldfield ... same for Riuichi Sakamoto ... and the rest of a lot of these one album wonders, or some esoteric definitions of the type of prog that some band supposedly is ... will be long forgotten and worse ... never heard! I personally do not care for the descriptions of "rio", "symphonic" or whatever other flavor of vanilla we can come up with for "prog" ... because in the end we're diluting the music for our benefit and killing the artist (so to speak!) ... and I always say we need to lift the artist ... not the fan!
Edited by moshkito - May 13 2010 at 16:17
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Online
Points: 18966
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Posted: May 13 2010 at 16:40 |
rod65 wrote:
1. People who dismiss commercially successful bands or albums as definitively inferior
2. People who present their opinions on the quality of music as if they were objective facts with verifiable and unassailable criteria |
There are good things in the commercial area ... however, the assumption that you are making is that something "commercial" is going to be around for 100 years, and everyone will be heard, loved , appreciated and talked about at progarchives and NME. ... And you damn well know that 95% of the music that is commercially succeeful is not going to be remembered a whole lot or discussed very much. And I can give you an example. Jefferson Airplane had a lot of nice things a lot of progressive stuff and at least one member was very experimental. Do they get any serious discussion? Nahhh ... there are more fun threads trying to trash James Labrie!
The 2nd one ... geeeee, you just did the exact same thing you are not liking. Can I send you a mirror for Christmas?
The hard part, and your comment might or might not suggest that, is when we're talking about KC, ELP, PF, Soft Machine and London, and then someone like me mentions The Beat Poets and mixes Daevid Allen and Kevin Ayers and Mr. Naked Lunch, or Gurdgieff ... it throws you for a loop. All of a sudden you can not relate the music to the art scene, and you might not have heard enough to have any idea what the context, inspiration and work was used and turned into music! And then, all you can state is that I (or any one else) have no idea what we're talking about, and you can easily open up the internet and go check out the Brittanica for the year 1969 (they do issues for every year!!!) and see a lot of things listed ... ohh my gawd ... and Pink Floyd was playing next door the same night? And Soft Machine opened the set? And a pair of folkies called Incredible String Band were outside and they stole some of the audience and they were doing some farout stuff with some women and actors dancing around ... and some poets were a couple of blocks away in the middle of an anti-war demonstration against VietNam ... and one group had this really far out song ... something about tomorrow I'll be crying ...
Or I like this one better ... The Beatles White Album ... Revolution #9 ... when you break it down and hear Marat/Sade let me know ... and then go check out that play, where it came from, the folks that started it, and the musicians that were around those folks, the school ... oh sheep dip ... there is this far out art gallery across the street and this one lady has this white wall with a dot in the middle and John is hanging around all over it! And Pink Floyd is to play tonite after a whole bunch of poets and people are gonna stream through ...
Does any of it mean anything to you? That's the real issue, isn't it? I sincerely hope that your children don't find themselves in the same place as this generation did ... with parents that were not willing to listen and teach their children well ... except send them to fight for something that almost no one believed and that you and I certainly don't and didn't ... and France had given up on it 10 years earlier!
So, I guess music has nothing different than a feeling/fantasy for you than what Playboy, or some other magazine might offer you? It's all about your satisfaction?
Edited by moshkito - May 13 2010 at 16:50
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Anirml
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 377
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Posted: May 13 2010 at 16:48 |
I think all people would like prog if they understood it 
If you have gotten into Prog, would you then go back again and listen to pop? (Platons Cave?)
When I first heard Yes' music I thought it sucked, I hated it actually (made a comment once here on PA, about how much I thought Yes sucked). Then after ca. 4 months I listened to Close to the Edge and was shocked at how good it was, I couldn't belive I once disliked this music.
Edited by Anirml - May 13 2010 at 16:49
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Zombywoof
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 26 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1217
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Posted: May 13 2010 at 18:44 |
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People who take the music they like too seriously, and get angry when it is slightly mocked. For instance, Beatles fans who get upset with me for wearing a t-shirt with Frank Zappa's We're Only In It For The Money cover on it!
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Continue the prog discussion here: http://zombyprog.proboards.com/index.cgi ...
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: May 13 2010 at 18:55 |
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There's no way DT are better than Europe, Dean. Europe is tawesome! That poll must have been manipulated!
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OT Räihälä
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 09 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 514
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Posted: May 14 2010 at 04:59 |
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I don't hate anyone or anything, but what annoys me is, when people can't accept that the 70's prog doesn't define what is and what isn't prog. For example what Radiohead have done since the turn of the millennium is proggier than anything most dinosaurs (Yes etc.) did after, say, 1975.
To me, prog is exploring new ways.
Edited by OT Räihälä - May 14 2010 at 04:59
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: May 14 2010 at 05:59 |
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None of the points brought up bother me really, quite the oposite, those points can lead to the most interesting discussions.
I just have one tep peeve:
- People trying to get their favourite artist(s) included here although they have nothing to do with prog.This can annoy me a bit. Anatolian yodeling outfits and suchlike.
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shockedjazz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 12 2008
Location: Madrid (spain)
Status: Offline
Points: 169
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Posted: May 14 2010 at 10:41 |
UndercoverBoy wrote:
-People who don't realize that Peter Hammill is the greatest singer and lyricist of all time.
-People who think that A Trick of the Tail is the best Genesis album.
-People who give 5 stars to a Retro or Neo-Prog album.
-People who don't realize experimentation's place in Progressive music (I used to be one of those.)
-People who have to give one 5-star album to every band or sub-genre. |
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KingCrimson250
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 573
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Posted: May 14 2010 at 11:40 |
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I've said it before, and other people have said it too, but to me:
People who dismiss anything that has distorted bass or chiming 12-strings or a mellotron as being a rip-off of classic prog. Like, sure, there are some cases where the creativity is lacking, but for the most part it's genuinely creative music that happens to have a couple of similarities with the big names of prog, and gets sl*gged for it.
I especially hate this with King Crimson's Red. One album. One. Album. And now anyone who ever makes music with chunky bass tones, dissonant guitar riffs, or the tritone is instantly just copying it. Now, I like Red. I think it's a great album. I just get sick of reading all the "This song features a trumpet playing over a heavy guitar, drums, and bass riff, so clearly it's just a Fallen Angel clone."
Edited by KingCrimson250 - May 14 2010 at 11:41
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8920
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Posted: May 14 2010 at 16:17 |
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Here is my "drive me up the wall" part 2
a) when people use the words "tolerant" and "intolerant" as a way of psychologically clubbing someone or to mentally beat them into submission. This has not happened to me in the PA forums, but has in other music forums on the net. Just because you disagree with someone about music, you are condemmed as "intolerant", when really all you have is a difference of opinion, which anybody out there is entitled to. Just because you do not see something the same as someone else does not always imply intolerance.
b) people who read to much into something you have stated, and give it a meaning that simply is not there-it happened to me in another music forum, when i stated a point of view that was not popular and "against the grain", i was labelled as a "provoker", which was not my intention at all.
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: May 14 2010 at 16:47 |
KingCrimson250 wrote:
I've said it before, and other people have said it too, but to me:
People who dismiss anything that has distorted bass or chiming 12-strings or a mellotron as being a rip-off of classic prog. Like, sure, there are some cases where the creativity is lacking, but for the most part it's genuinely creative music that happens to have a couple of similarities with the big names of prog, and gets sl*gged for it.
I especially hate this with King Crimson's Red. One album. One. Album. And now anyone who ever makes music with chunky bass tones, dissonant guitar riffs, or the tritone is instantly just copying it. Now, I like Red. I think it's a great album. I just get sick of reading all the "This song features a trumpet playing over a heavy guitar, drums, and bass riff, so clearly it's just a Fallen Angel clone."
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Yeah, a lot of times when people say "this is clearly a ripoff of" it's a ridiculous comparison. I've heard people say that Sabbath's Electric Wizard and The Wizard are ripoffs of 21st Century Schizoid Man, that every Yes prog song is a ripoff of "Mirrors" and that every Genesis prog song copies "In the Court of". I've also heard Gentle Giant being refered to as a Crimson clone simply because of their use of brass and reed instruments. As if Crimson have the exclusive rights to brass and reed instruments.
I swear, some people take the most desperate measures to discredit a band they don't like. Sabbath, Yes, Genesis and Gentle Giant aren't any more Crimson clones than Crimson was a Moody Blues clone. None of these bands are clones, do they really sound alike at all? No.
Taking inspiration from =/= cloning.
Edited by boo boo - May 14 2010 at 16:52
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VanVanVan
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 756
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Posted: May 14 2010 at 23:46 |
PROGMONSTER2008 wrote:
I have a problem with the new generation prog mentality 
Instead of coming out and playing a naturally exciting jazz/classical rock melody, todays prog is about taking the word progressive literally and inventing a new style of rock or metal and experimenting like no one else has. But what made prog great was melody and the cleverness and excitement that came from a jazz/classical man playing rock. Real proggers don't think about the term progressive they just go out and play it  |
While I respect your opinion, I don't think I've ever disagreed with something more. But to each his own. 
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"The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen
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I Love Internet
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 132
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Posted: May 15 2010 at 08:51 |
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I don´t really spend enough time around here to have strong oppositions considering anything. What really bugs me though is that an album like Riversides ADHD for example is rated above Unexpects In a flesh aquarium., that album should be at least in the top 50...imo... I like Riverside and ADHD, but compared to IAFA...
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I like my eggs boiled and that´s it!
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KingCrimson250
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 573
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Posted: May 15 2010 at 12:40 |
boo boo wrote:
rod65 wrote:
1. People who dismiss commercially successful bands or albums as definitively inferior
2. People who present their opinions on the quality of music as if they were objective facts with verifiable and unassailable criteria |
Oh god, a big yes on both counts. |
Really? I completely disagree. All that mainstream prog is okay, but it's nothing compared to true prog, like ITCOTCK... oh wait, it went gold. Um, I meant, Thick as a Brick. No, wait, sorry, that one peaked at #1. Oh, I know, Close to the Edge! No, shoot, that one went platinum. Hmmmm...
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Zombywoof
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 26 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1217
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Posted: May 15 2010 at 13:54 |
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Since when has Prog been mainstream? I enjoy it all, it's music.
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Continue the prog discussion here: http://zombyprog.proboards.com/index.cgi ...
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: In repose.
Status: Offline
Points: 38974
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Posted: May 15 2010 at 14:19 |
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Prog was pretty mainstream in the 70s, and of course there's a lot of music in prog categories that has had much mainstream success. Some Prog is a lot more mainstream than others.
What has somewhat irritated me is when people have equated album sales (commercial success) with how 'good" an album is. Commercial success does not equal artistic success in my book.
I commonly prefer lesser known progressive rock acts to the big Prog names. I won't say that the more obscure is better, but it is often better for me.
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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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AbrahamSapien
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 27 2009
Location: Slovenia
Status: Offline
Points: 181
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Posted: May 15 2010 at 14:48 |
VanVanVan wrote:
PROGMONSTER2008 wrote:
I have a problem with the new generation prog mentality
Instead of coming out and playing a naturally exciting jazz/classical rock melody, todays prog is about taking the word progressive literally and inventing a new style of rock or metal and experimenting like no one else has. But what made prog great was melody and the cleverness and excitement that came from a jazz/classical man playing rock. Real proggers don't think about the term progressive they just go out and play it |
While I respect your opinion, I don't think I've ever disagreed with something more. But to each his own. |
I don't really know what PROGMONSTER2008 wanted to say, but my opinion is that anyone can do weird music, but only the masters can make it groove - and that's how a prog masterpiece is done.
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