Kurt Cobain & "Red"

Whether or not Cobain was a musical genius is completely irrelevant, to me.

What does matter to me, is Kurt Cobain, the person. Yes, maybe he was selfish to end his own life, and leave behind a wife and daughter. But people who condemn suicide, are just as selfish. They are only considering their own points of view, and ideology(or maybe they're just regurgitating the ideology that society feeds them), and not considering what led someone to make such a decision, and go through with it. They must be going through pure hell. Depression can distort your thinking. All of a sudden, it seems the world would be better off without you, and you're only burdening the people who love you, and have to worry and look after you, by sticking around. Easy way out?, that depends from person, to person, unless you know what each and every individual were thinking during those final few moments, it is absolutely ridiculous to make such general statements.

I don't know anything about DavidInsabella, but, I'd be very surprised if he ever truly went through (serious)depression, or drug addiction, for that matter. His views and philosophies are rather typical of people who are ignorant about such topics and probably think that "depression" is what you go through when you feel a little "down in the dumps" for a short period of time, but then get over it.

An example of you talking bollocks (#1): "For all I care Cobain could have played the most amazing solos in the world and he still wouldn't be a good musician." 
That is nonsensical rubbish.  By the very nature wouldn't that make him a good musician?

Example #2: "And no, I don't think Smells Like Teen Spirit is a catchy tune." 
You're in a distinct minority.  Nirvana and their success created a world of imitators, principally based on this song.  It made a generation stand up and listen; igniting their imagination.  It is an out and out catchy pop-song.  This isn't just my opinon, but the thoughts of millions.

Example #3: "And just because you say he had a great voice doesn't make it so (which is the weakness of your argument in general)." 
A documentary on the BBC highlighted his talent.  This isn't just my opinion.  Perhaps you should read more than just one book.

Example #4: "I don't have respect for people who kill themselves instead of remaining strong and doing thier best to pick up the pieces." 
Can you not understand, do you not have the capacity to empathise with someone who had attempted suicide on countless occasions.  This is their last hope.  They can't see beyond death.  It is not a case of stopping, saying "D'oh, I've been so stupid" and moving on with their lives.  They can't.  Like I said, you are obtuse, insensitive and shortsighted. 

Example #5: "I don't think he was an artist and I don't think he was a good musician, plus I've thoroughly backed up my reasoning." 
Where did you back up your argument?  Not on this forum.  You don't think he was a good artist (subjective bullsh*t without any basis or evidence).  Have you seen his art.  Are you able to provide a critique or his artist endeavours?  It is a vacuous statement to make.

Example #6: "All this tortured soul rubbish is ridiculous. I know plenty of people with divorced parents, and they live happy and normal lives. For Cobain, it seems that he wasn't quite as strong a person...in the case of Kurt Cobain, yes, I find him weak and pathetic"  
Is everyone created exactly the same.  Do we look alike, think alike, feel the same way as the next person.  No.  Perhaps he wasn't a particular strong person.  This maybe true.  He suffered with stomach ailments for his entire life.  He was essentially a depressive person.  But not being a strong person is hardly a character flaw and certainly not a daming indictment of a person or a reason to assassinate his character.  No one is perfect.

Example #7: "Kurt Cobain made a trend. That's all. He didn't do anything that wasn't done befre and he didn't change music, or at least not for the better." 
Hair metal, crap 80s pop, Michael Jackson; they dominated the charts in the early 90s.  Nevermind comes along and knocks Jackson off the top of the charts and gives countless other bands, unheard/unseen by labels and the media the chance to shine.  Of course he changed music; no one in the mainstream was playing songs like Nirvana (then they came along, made it big and bands imitated then).  Whether you like his songs or grunge in general or not, that isn't really the point.  He paved the way for bands that you hear today.  Yes, if Nirvana weren't around then, another band may have taken the limelight, but they were playing songs and garnering praise around Seattle; enough to make Geffen and other majors sit up and listen.  What Nirvana achieved is comparable to The Beatles and the step-change they created in the 60s.  Nirvana were able to unite a generation.  Whether you were a jock, nerd, whatever, everyone listened to them.  My music teacher even played them in class.  Cobain was unique for the times.

I'm not praising Cobain for taking drugs.  I'm praising him for his musicial and creative talent.  Hendrix, Morrison, Bonham, Buckley, Joplin, Lynott, Moon; these are people who had serious drug/alcohol issues, but were extremely talented.  It seems that to be that talented you have to have some other character flaw, which coincidentally seems to be narcotic based.  The last few weeks of his life, you are correct, he absconded from a rehab centre in LA, flew to Seattle and was never seen again by his family and friends.  This was a man in the death throes.  All he could see what his own demise.  When you are that far gone it must be difficult, impossible to think beyond yourself.  His "glory" lies in his music, not his death.  The impact he had on people and the music industry, that is his true legacy.

It's not just me that claim what he did in the last 3/4 years of his life changed music.  The media played a massive part in creating Nirvana and perpetuating them to this day, this is true.  But at the time, listening to LA Guns, Thunder, Cinderella etc., then Nirvana come along with this amazing sound and it blew people away.  You can never fully grasp that unless you were there.  A book isn't going to recreate what that period in the early 1990s was like.  Today there are imitators galore and other bands who have taken that grunge or alternative rock sound and progressed it.  This wouldn't be possible without Cobain.

Essentially, you have the arguing capacity of a pre-pubescent 15 year old.  Before you make statements you should read a little more than just one book.  Try to make a rounded argument.  To base what you say on one book, it pretty pathetic.  You yourself said that people should question ideas displayed by the media, yet the foundation for your viewpoint is one bestselling book.  Erich Von Daniken says that aliens built the pyramids, hell, he wrote it in one book, it must be true!  Read widely and then formulate an opinion.  I'm not attacking your dislike of Nirvana; music is subjective of course.  But you make statements that are devoid of any thought and with little foundation or even connection to the music. 

Enjoy your ignorant, insular view on life.

Laurent wrote: I don't know anything about DavidInsabella, but, I'd be very surprised if he ever truly went through (serious)depression, or drug addiction, for that matter. His views and philosophies are rather typical of people who are ignorant about such topics and probably think that "depression" is what you go through when you feel a little "down in the dumps" for a short period of time, but then get over it.

And you think depression is just the result of bad luck. How could you call anyone ignorant when you promote the idea that depression and drug addiction is no fault of the person themself. You honestly don't think someone addicted to drugs should be sympathised with? They shouldn't have thought to themselves, "is what I'm doing wrong?"

Fripp and Crimson are gods.

Cobain was a talent-less wreck who foolishly ended his own life.

There is NO truth to the media-made myth that Cobain "saved rock". I'll take Warrant, Winger, Slaughter and New Kids On The Block over Blink 182, Sum 41, Linkin Park or Britney Spears any 8 days of the week.  

Nothing changed because of Nirvana or "Smells Like Teen Spirit". Mainstream music is as bad now as it's ever been. Despite the 10th anniversary hype, I don't think he's missed at all. "Flash in the pan" is the correct term I believe.

The only thing Cobain ever proved to his deluded legion of angst-ridden teenagers, was that he sucked at playing guitar. Those same kids in 1991-1994 should have been listening to Steve Howe and Steve Hackett unload their six strings.

Grunge is dead - prog is coming back...show no mercy to bad music.

Laurent wrote: I don't know anything about DavidInsabella, but, I'd be very surprised if he ever truly went through (serious)depression, or drug addiction, for that matter. His views and philosophies are rather typical of people who are ignorant about such topics and probably think that "depression" is what you go through when you feel a little "down in the dumps" for a short period of time, but then get over it.

And you think depression is just the result of bad luck. How could you call anyone ignorant when you promote the idea that depression and drug addiction is no fault of the person themself. You honestly don't think someone addicted to drugs should be sympathised with? They shouldn't have thought to themselves, "is what I'm doing wrong?"

Judging by what you have to say, it would appear that you've hardly read that book of yours.

What have you done that makes you personally more knowlegable on the subject? Read a few more articles than me? Heard a couple more songs? You're nothing but a pretentious airhead who can't accept different views.

I was there.  I grew up with it.  I remember the day he died.  It affected my generation.  I've read, digested, reviewed, watched, listened to, discussed countless media on Cobain and Nirvana.  "A pretentious airhead", is the exact remark I would expect from a 15 year old who has no idea and no life experience. 

I know plenty of people who don't think Smells Like Teen Spirit is catchy. I find it completely boring. The millions of kids in the early ninties most likely found it catchy for the same reason kids found N sync catchy, because of all the hype built around it. If you find it catchy that's your own buisness, but don't bring me down for not thinking so, that just reveals the real egotism of your nature.

Comparing Nirvana to N Sync.  You're a f**kwit.  The media does not make something catchy; it either is or it isn't.  Gary from Rolling Stone or John from Billboard saying it's catchy doesn't mean we all slap our heads and say, "of course it is, d'oh!"  You have to remember that this was 14 years ago.  In that time countless bands have come along (because of the trail Nirvana and similar bands in the early 90s blazed) and played similar tunes, so the whole nu-metal, alt-rock, whatever, becomes homogenised.  It's what happens when someone breaks the mold.

Why is it you feel you're an expert on the subject of suicide? Do you honestly think people who feel it's the only way out are blameless? They just accidentally by no fault of thier own found themselves in that situation? Unless I'm mistaken Kurt Cobain did drugs since he was young, and started using heroin despite warnings. And you honestly don't think any blame should be put upon him for it? Please. No one should be blamed for a junkie becoming one aside from the junkie themselves. And don't tell me he had no other way out. Hmm... I don't know, maybe he could have gone to rehab! Maybe he could have admitted that he needed help, and worked hard to get clean. Don't call me insensitive for thinking people should have bettered themselves. He left a wife and baby behind, why should I sympathize? Because he's your little idol? You've got a lot of nerve pal!

You've called someone weak and pathetic essentially because they committed suicide; like I said, you clearly have no understanding of human emotion.  You may as well be dead, as the blood in your heart runs cold.  Do you know of people who have committed suicide?  I do.  It's not pleasant (to put it mildly).  It's not because they are pathetic, it's not because they are weak, it is because they are unwell, they are sick and they truly believe that the best thing for everyone is if they shuffle off this mortal coil.  It is beggars belief that you have these thoughts on people who commit suicide.  As for Cobain, he DID go into rehab countless times (including absconding from rehab and catching a plane to Seattle) - but that book of yours would have told you that! 

As for "Bettered himself", holy f**k, you are ridiculously obtuse.  He was ill and he could have "bettered himself."  That is the response from someone so insular, so un-touched by common, everyday life that they cannot elicit an intelligent or empathetic response. 

As for idolising him.  Not at all.  I liked what he did and appreciated his talent.  I was actually more of a Pearl Jam fan at the time, as well as into melodic hardcore.  So no, I didn't idolise him, but I take umbrage to someone attempting to impart their warped view on something they know little about.

I've been backing up my arguments this whole time, you've just accused me of being wrong and passing me off like a pretentious little jerk! Where have you backed up anything you said? Let's see, "The BBC thought he was talented, so he must have been talented." "Everyone thought Smells Like Teen Spirit was a good song, so it must have been a good song." And meanwhile you put me down for reading only his biography. I'm not ignorant for reading something that glorified Kurt Cobain and forming my own opinion contrary to the one I read, I'm open minded for it. Why should I be put down for that? And I was talking about his music, not his actual artwork: paintings, drawings, etc.

Objective documentaries.  Objective articles.  Objective books.  i.e. balanced views on the era, grunge, nirvana, cobain.  You said he was not creative; look the word up in the dictionary. 

Not being a strong person isn't a character flaw? What are you talking about? You're saying the need doesn't come around in all our lives to be strong and do what we have to do? Perhaps not all of our problems were as big as Kurt Cobain's, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have tried to be brave, especially since his problems were self inflicted. Here's the way I see it, his parents got divorced, he didn't cope as well as he could have, he got into drugs, he was homless for a while because no one wanted to take him in because of how he acted, he eventually got into heroin to ease the pain he brought upon himself, and he became depressed. This isn't a story that should be glorified! This is a story that should serve as a warning!

He was 8 years old when his parents divorced and "he didn't cope as well as he could have."  Jesus, what are you saying, he was 8 years old for christ sakes...his parents, his family, they are his life and suddenly it is all broken up!  You underestimate the impact it has on a person, especially someone that young and impressionable.  It's bad enough for anyone to cope with trauma, but an 8 year old.  But then I wouldn't expect someone like you to understand this.

You have no reason for saying I don't have a well rounded argument aside from the fact that it's different from yours, and the one displayed by the media. And yes, I am 15 years old, though I'm not prepubesent, and I still have a perfectly valid argument, wheras you just have insults.

I really hope that all 15 years are not like you; fortunately most of the ones I come into contact with are caring and understanding.  Whereas you are one of the most hebetudinous and torpid people I've come across.  It's not your age that is a problem, either; there are a lot of teenagers on this forum who are very intelligent.  The problem is that you are ignornant and foolish and what you have to say on this particular subject is worthless and contemptuous.

Read what Wormboy has to say and end this discussion.