Nursery Cryme vs Fragile

ivan_2068 wrote:   but let me have my doubts, because this huge evidence can't be all wrong (Not only the three copies of Fragile I own and have quoted or copied) but also two official sites and Prog Archives. There must be some hidden fact to create such a mess, probably there was a short edition NON OFFICIAL released in 1971 (What I doubt, because nobody would release an album without copyrighting it first, this would be stupid and I assure you the lawyers of Cotillon are not stupid) or maybe  the charts refer to one of the various 45 RPM versions of Roundabout with Long Distance Roundaround. Iván

a short NON official release... perhaps.  Irregardless, the album was released in '71 and was indeed on the charts, and rather high up I'd say.  I have to appreciate  your quandry, I was in the same position last night,  having my doubts as to your claims because the evidence I was seeing didn't support it,  an album released in '72 shouldn't be on the charts in '71.  That it was on the charts in '71  is a fact.  Think it over though,  a '72 release makes no sense.  As the tale goes, Fragile was recorded to help offset the new 'goodies' for Wakeman, and of course out of the heat of the moment that the initial rehearsals with Wakeman.   Why would an album, recorded in Sept of '71 be held on to for at least 4 months.  Knowing as you probably do the way album releases worked in the 70's.  Albums were actually scheduled for release to time with the hollidays, would Yes and Atlantic Records have sat on an album for that long through  tours of the U.S. and Europe, and the Christmas shopping season ( was a prime factor then in album releases.. seen multiple references to the record companies back then pushing for albums to come out before or at the very least during the X-mas shopping time)  Even in '71 Rock was  big business it appears hahahhahah.

micky wrote: a short NON official release... perhaps.  Irregardless, the album was released in '71 and was indeed on the charts, and rather high up I'd say.  I have to appreciate  your quandry, I was in the same position last night,  having my doubts as to your claims because the evidence I was seeing didn't support it,  an album released in '72 shouldn't be on the charts in '71.  That it was on the charts in '71  is a fact.  Think it over though,  a '72 release makes no sense.  As the tale goes, Fragile was recorded to help offset the new 'goodies' for Wakeman, and of course out of the heat of the moment that the initial rehearsals with Wakeman.   Why would an album, recorded in Sept of '71 be held on to for at least 4 months.  Knowing as you probably do the way album releases worked in the 70's.  Albums were actually scheduled for release to time with the hollidays, would Yes and Atlantic Records have sat on an album for that long through  tours of the U.S. and Europe, and the Christmas shopping season ( was a prime factor then in album releases.. seen multiple references to the record companies back then pushing for albums to come out before or at the very least during the X-mas shopping time)  Even in '71 Rock was  big business it appears hahahhahah.

I want to be honest, yesterday I followed this thread because I'm stubborn (As you also are ), but after all this posts, I can't undestand what happens.

I just gave the number of one of the oficial releases and all the data refers to 1971.

But what convinced me more was that the lyrics are copyrighted in 1972 (Both labels), and believe me, if I know about something it's about laws, no lawyer of abig corporation would allow any of his bands to release an album withut having all rights reserved or at least a pending patent.

But, it's a mystery, that I will try to solve, after New Year,

Iván

It was funny to read a whole page of these long posts arguing when an album was released

Ivan is one of the most stubborn people I've ever known

hahhaha your last post just hit me Ivan,  you have 3 copies of Fragile.  I'd be curious to know how many copies of various albums  you have of a group you truly love, ...say Genesis.

Fragile is a very particular case, as a fact I have 5 copies:

In the ancient ages (mid 70's), no Prog LP's were ever released in Perú (Except Wakeman's but because of the classical connection), but one day a Peruvian label Discos El Virrey (Viceroy Records)  started with 8 releases that I'll try to remember:

1. Fragile
2. Yesterdays
3. Dark Side of the Moon (Printed as "El Lado Obscuro de la Luna")
4. Trilogy
5. Brain Salad Surgery (Cover printed with a literal translation "Cirugía de Ensalada Cerebral"  instead of Bl*w Job which is it's real translation)
6. Illusions on a Double Dimple
7. Spartacus
8. A Gobsnitt album that I can't remember.

Of course this albums were already two or three years old when released in Perú, I bought every one except the last.

But Peruvian LP's were crap, after two or three complete times you listened, they were full of scratches, plus that this guys used a plastic bag inside the art cover instead of a paper bag, that melted in hot summers.(That's one)

In 1978 I went to study to Birmingham Alabama, and bought my second Fragile LP copy (Plus almost 80 albums, it was like heaven to see so many albums I never even imagined) -That's two-

In 1991  bought my first CD player in Miami (A JVC in Circuit City ) and of course I upgraded a lot of LP's to CD Fragile included  -That's three-

In 1995, my best friend died in a car accident and his mother thought I would appreciate more his album collection and inherited all of them, including an original UK first edition (At least I believed that until today) Fragile LP in perfect condition. -That's four-

In Christmas 2004 my uncle (Who is just a couple years older than me) came from New Jersey and brought me some albums remastered including Device Voice Drums (Kansas) and Fragile -That's five-

I always wished I had only four, but that's how life works.

So, it's a special case, I never buy more than one CD copy to upgrade all my LP's, almost never get remastered editions (Don't really care), but in this case, I had to buy two LP's (Because one was completely scratched) one CD (To upgrade my LP as I did with most of my early albums) and the other two were for free, one a gift and other inherited.

Another one that I had 5 copies is The War of the Worlds (One stolen and replaced  LP, the second I lend to a friend who never returned it to me- one original cassette in 1991 -there was no CD in that store-  one Cd a couple of years later and the 25 Anniversary edition deluxe that my uncle brought last Christmas.

I don't have more than an LP and a CD of the rest of my albums.

The Miracle wrote:

It was funny to read a whole page of these long posts arguing when an album was released Ivan is one of the most stubborn people I've ever known

Yep, and I admit it, but you can't deny that I always have  fundament to be stubborn, maybe I take Prog' too seriously and have an excellent memory, so I remember a lot of dark info.

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

Damn it, I am sucked back to this argument again. 

Gomah wrote: Damn it, I am back to this argument again nd I think your argument about the copyright issue does not apply. You know that copyright can be national wide, so the company holding the rights to that song in US might have been different from the one in UK,

Don't want to argue more, but about the copyright, if you read my post you'll notice this which I quoted from the official lyrics of Fragile and gave the source:

*©1972 Irving, BMI. ©1972 Cotillion, BMI Used by permission. All rights reserved. http://www.yesworld.com/

I'm aware that copyright is only nationwide (That's precisely my work)  and here are two copyright symbols, one is from USA and the other is from UK Publishers (and as you see both are from 1972.

 "Gomah wrote: 

The UK LP publisher was Rondor Music (London) not Cotillion Music, anyway you know these stuff better than me."

Of course you're right, but at the same time you're wrong, I never said Cotillion was the UK publisher, Cotillion Music is the Publisher in USA:

Cotillion Music, Inc./Walden Music Address: 75 Rockefeller Plaza New York, NY 10019 http://www.mpa.org/agency/imprintsc.html

Of Course RONDOR RELEASED FRAGILE IN UK, but you didn't knew that RONDOR AND IRVING RECORDS WORK TOGETHER IN UK and are the same thing.

 

Imprints of Rondor Music International, Inc. Below are the imprints that Rondor Music International, Inc. has reported that it handles for sales, copyright clearances, or both. An asterisk(*) following an imprint indicates that Rondor Music International, Inc. is a resource for sales of the printed music. It may also be the contact for copyright clearances. If you have questions, contact Rondor Music International, Inc.. Rondor Music International, Inc. Almo/Irving Music Almo Music Corp. Irving Music, Inc.   http://www.mpa.org/agency/322i.html

As you probably noticed, the beholder of the copyright of FRAGILE in UK is precisely IRVING MUSIC = RONDOR  who released FRAGILE in UK as you well said and as I quoted.

So the lyrics were copyrighted in UK by IRVING MUSIC (Beholder of Rondor) and in USA by COTILLION 

In both countries the album was copyrighted in 1972  

Thanks for the new argument..  

But let's better agree to disagree, I'm too tired to argue and don't want to start a New Year with this issue.

Cheers

Iván

BTW: Please, don't try to teach me laws.

Edited by ivan_2068

Gomah wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: BTW: Please, don't try to teach me laws. Never did your honor!

 

Not Your Honor, just call me Doctor  I rejected a judge position in my country. Hate to decide between the arguments of two usually liar lawyers (Believe me I never lie, thuth can be bended but not broken), I rather argue my case.

Not a word about the last post?

Do you agree that FRAGILE was also copyrighted in UK on 1972?

BTW: I already had given a step back in this thread, but you insisted to bring me again into it, and who am I to reject a good argument? Especially if you're giving me some nice fundaments.

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

interesting stuff........ keep it coming

  Nursery Cryme .Fragile-they have one similar thing for me I listen them rarely and when  Yes CTTE,The Yes album,GFTO,Time and a word are listened then I listen Fragile.I just dont have warm feelings  against that album.I listen Nursery rarely too.I listen it when SEBTP ,Foxtrot ,TLLDOB are already listened and I dont want to listen them anymore.Trick of the tail and TFTO comes last for me .But still I like Nursery Cryme more than Fragile   

Gomah wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Gomah wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: BTW: Please, don't try to teach me laws. Never did your honor!   Not Your Honor, just call me Doctor   Sorry, didn't get the point, so you got a PhD in Law? I got a master degree in International Law (2 years of my life almost wasted, because peopole don't care for degrees to hire you, Laws is a career of relations) and that's what is required here to be called Doctor ivan_2068 wrote: Not a word about the last post? Do you agree that FRAGILE was also copyrighted in UK on 1972? Well, I thoght we were not supposed to argue again, thats why I kept silent. And again you are "bending the truth" . Fragile being copyrighted in 1972 in UK, does not mean it was not copyrighted in 1971 in UK by the same company or another company like Topographic Music Limited. Once again, you know these stuff better! You pulled me back!!!! What you're saying is a legal aberration, because Copyright registers are created to save your rights and property over a determined item, if a second company was allowed to register a copyrighted material, the copyright will have no value at all and would be useless. You pay the Copyright so nobody can use your property or the rights granted to you. An album can't be registered in favour of two companies in the same country unless the right of the first has ended, and nobody will make a contract for UK of two moths!!!!! As you may know, Rick Wakeman wanted to re-issue Criminal Record and No Earthly Connection, but A&M Records didn't allowed him, because they owned the copyright and didn't wanted to do it, so you, see, not even the composer can go against a registered mark. If the band or the producer allows two companies to hold the rights (with mutual agreement), all the trademarks existing must be mentioned in every release, that's why the Cotillion (USA) album also has the obligation to mention the Irving - Rondor copyright (As they did), and as you can see, there's no previous copyright mentioned in this album, so a previous copyright doesn't exist. I can prove what I say using Tormato: * ©1978 Topographic Music, Ltd. ** ©1978 Topographic Music, Ltd. and Rondor Music, Ltd. Administered by WB Music Corp Used by permission. All rights reserved.  http://yesworld.com/lyrics/Tormato.html  As you can see in the case of Tormato Topographic Music and Rondor (UK) plus WB Music Corp (USA) are mentioned because all  labels holded the rights simultaneously. I assure you with 100% of seccurity that no lawyer in the world would allow a band to release an album before having copyrighted music and lyrics. BTW: When Fragile was released, Topographic Music Ltd. didn't existed, Topographic Music Ltd was founded after the release of Tale Tales was released more than one year after Fragile unless you say I'm wrong also. ... I just checked, not even Tales from Topographic Oceans is copyrighted by Topographic Music Ltd, but by Yessongs Ltd., a company that never registered the lyrics of Fragile. Published by Yessongs Ltd., ASCAP. © 1973 by Yessongs Ltd. Used by permission. All rights reserved http://yesworld.com/lyrics/TalesFromTopographicOceans.html  The first album which lyrics are registered by Topographic Music is Relayer in 1974: © 1974 Topographic Music, BMI. Used by permission. All rights reserved http://yesworld.com/lyrics/Relayer.html And you changed your sermon, you just argued that the data I provided was false because there was no UK company in the credits, which I proved aginst your claims. Yes, add this to one of your lost cases . Don't use to loose cases, For legal issues what counts is the official release data and it's 1-04-72, but again I accept something strange and unsual happened in November 1971 that I can't decipher yet. Now, Iván has left the building (At least this thread) . Happy New Year Iván

EDIT: Sorry for not leaving the building, but this a pleasure that i couldn't resist:

Gonah wrote:

Fragile being copyrighted in 1972 in UK, does not mean it was not copyrighted in 1971 in UK by the same company or another company like Topographic Music Limited. Once again, you know these stuff better!

IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is a copy of the parts of the UK Copyright Act:

15.    Copyright in the typographical arrangement of a published edition expires at the end of the period of 25 years from the end of the calendar year in which the edition was first published.. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_2.htm #mdiv2

This means that nobody could copyright Fragile until 1996 or 1997, so your argument is WRONG. w

16.—(1) The owner of the copyright in a work has, in accordance with the following provisions of this Chapter, the exclusive right to do the following acts in the United Kingdom—  (a) to copy the work (see section 17);  (b) to issue copies of the work to the public (see section 18);  (c) to perform, show or play the work in public (see section 19);  (d) to broadcast the work or include it in a cable programme service (see section 20);  (e) to make an adaptation of the work or do any of the above in relation to an adaptation (see section 21); and those acts are referred to in this Part as the "acts restricted by the copyright". http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_3.htm #mdiv16

This means nobody except Irving in UK and Cotillion in USA can make a copy of FRAGILE until 1996 or 1997, so the Irving copyright of FRAGILE from 1992 IS THE FIRST AND ONLY VALID IN UK.

In the case you say that the owner of the music and lyrics of Fragile is Yes and they can give it to anybody, I'm informing you this is not correct either: t

9.—(1) In this Part "author", in relation to a work, means the person who creates it.     (2) That person shall be taken to be—  (a) in the case of a sound recording or film, the person by whom the arrangements necessary for the making of the recording or film are undertaken; (d) in the case of the typographical arrangement of a published edition, the publisher

In this case, Atlantic is the owner of the rights of the music and lyrics, but obviously they share them with  IRVING - RONDOR in UK and COTILLION in USA to copyright the lyrics as Publishers of the album.

Now I'm leaving the building

 

 

 

Edited by ivan_2068

Before I answer and explain all your points let me tell you I have the definitive PROVE, anythig you say is futile:

1. Box set YESYEARS
2. Booklet included WITH THE OFFICIAL STORY OF YES

Check page 16 - Discography

First take a look at the self titled album (YES), it says:

UK Release date, July 25, 1969

US release date: October 15, 1969

7567-81147-1/2 (Official andoriginal catalog number, which is correlative)

As you can see, clearly discriminates between the UK and US release, when there's a difference

NOW TAKE A LOOK AT FRAGILE in the same page:

RELEASE DATE: JAN 4, 1972

7567-81531-1/4/2 (Official and only valid original catalog number, correlative - Yes Album was 7567-81530-1/4/2 and Close to the Edge was 7567-81532-1/4/2 )

No reference to USA or UK  release, only OFFICIAL DATE OF RELEASE

Now read Page 8, third Parragraph:

Released in the OPENING MOMENTS OF 1972, FRAGILE contained......

All areliteral quotes of an OFFICIAL YES SOURCE, printed and sold to all the world, so This is the last post I answere, because it's pristine clear for me.

 

Gomah wrote: Doctor: Thanks for the Copyright heads-up. Before we go on any further on this argument I would like to make a few points clear: 1- There is a UK release of Fragile in November 1971: Atlantic 2401-019 Probably, but even if it exits IT'S NOT OFFICIAL 2- There is another UK release in 1972: Atlantic K50009 That's the one I own. 3- There are at least two US releases Atlantic SD7211 and Atlantic SD 19132 I have one of them, if you can remember it was published  by IRVING - RONDOR (UK) and Cotillion (USA) 4- Cotillion Music holds Copyright to publish the music and lyrics of the US releases for all of the songs on Fragile, except for Cans and Brahms which is copyrighted by Irving. This is clearly stated on the Atlantic SD7211 LP that I own and also on Yes web site. http://yesworld.com/lyrics/Fragile.html No, Cans & Brahms is a solo song  BY RICK WAKEMAN; and owned by A&M Records who paid Rick for his copyrights. Now back to Copyright issue. I never said you were wrong that it was copyrighted in 1972, but what I am telling you is that it could have been copyrighted in UK earlier under the SAME or a different company. You say that it cannot be under a different company, my evidence shows that it could have been, maybe they transferred the copyright to another company. IMPOSSIBLE: The copyrights last for 25 years as I already proved you WITH THE UK COPYRIGHT ACT. When a copyright is transferred or shared, all the copyrights symbols and labels MUST BE MENTIONED, Read the Copyright Act. There can be douubts with albums or music, but nobody can go against a copyright law, the one who does this is a stupid, because he would loose his rights. I used Topographic as an example because I was sure it existed back then, despite what you think. If you believe in Yesworld: http://yesworld.com/lyrics/KeysToAscension.html Roundabout******* Starship Trooper******** ******* © 1971 Yessongs / Topographic Music, Ltd / Rondor Music (London) Ltd. ******** © 1971 Topographic Music, Ltd / Rondor Music (London) Ltd. Yessongs Ltd. changed their name to Topographic Music between 1973 and 1974, THAT'S WHY BOTH LABELS ARE MENTIONED IN THE ALBUM. Rondor is owner of the origibnal version and Topographic Music Ltd owns the live version of this 1996 release. As I said before, when the copyright owner allows another label to release a new version or a new album or a new issue, ALL labels must be mentioned. BTW:  You're talking about a new version CREATED in 1996, EACH NEW ALBUM NEEDS A NEW COPYRIGHT when the rights over the original song still  belong to Cotillion but READ THE FRAGILE COPYRIGHT FOR GOD'S SAKE: * ©1972 Irving, BMI. ©1972 Cotillion, BMI Used by permission. All rights reserved. http://yesworld.com/lyrics/Fragile.html

Don't be stubborn, the rights of Fragile belong ONLY to IRVING BMI (UK) AND COTILLION, BMI (USA), can't you read that??????

Here again you clearly see that Roundabout was actually copyrighted by Topographic Music, Ltd / Rondor Music (London) Ltd. In 1971 in UK I told you, Topographic Music bought the existing rights from Yessongs Ltd after Relayer  but in US it was under Cotillion. Almost the same for Starship Trooper. Here they didn't mention the UK copyright at all: http://yesworld.com/lyrics/TheYesAlbum.html

To add to your confusion, I would like you to take a look at the following picture:

READ THE LABEL, IT SAYS 

What you see is that songs 1, 3 & 4 are under Rondor Music (London) /Yessongs The photo doesn't mention Yessongs only Rondor which I already proved is also IRVING Inc,, which includes Roundabout too. However if Rondor and Irving were exactly the same why they didn’t claim copyright for Cans and Brahms too?  Again, Cans & Brahms is a SOLO WAKEMAN song included in a Yes album, and the owner of the copyright of Wakeman solo works was A&M RECORDS I don’t think they were exactly the same, according to the history of Rondor and Irving, Rondor was created to handle Irving international business out of US What you think is notr important,  read my quote of Rondor, it says that when you find an asterisk sign before IRVING MUSIC, it means that it's being Published by Rondor.: http://www.onamrecords.com/Rondor_History.html. YOUR LINK DOESN'T WORK However I am a bit confused, who was the copyright owner of Cans and Brahms in the UK 1971 release?

For the third time, Cans & Brahms was owned by A&M Records, the company thatowned Rick Wakeman's work

And please, don’t tell me that what you see on that LP is 1972. Honestly sometimes I see it as 1971 and sometimes as 1972, but I think in that font, 2 should have more curves than what is already in the picture and other pictures like below and descriptions of the LPs can help you to tell that it is actually 1971 THANK YOU, IT SAYS 1971, BUT IF YOU LOOK CAREFULLY, THERE'S NOT A (c) OF COPYRIGHT BESIDE 1971, BUT A (P) WHICH MEANS PATENT PENDING, THIS PROVES THAT THE COPYRIGHT WAS ASKED IN 1971 AFTER BEING RECORDED, BUT THEY COULDN'T RELEASE THE ALBUM UNTIL IT WAS COPYRIGHTED IN 1972....THANK YOU AGAIN FOR THE PHOTO.  (Something I learned as a student was to read carefully the labels, ask or research what the small letters say and only after that talk or sue).

Let me tell you something, there are two posibilities:

1. The album has been released Jan 4, 1972 (Now it's official), all the printing of the material, including LP label and art Cover must have been done in 1971, because Jan 1 was hollyday, Jan 2 was Sunday, so all this work can't be done in Monday Jan 3, this would explain That the copyrights are from 1972.
2. That first release dates the year of recording (Which started in September 1971).

Ok, now you can safely leave the building!

Happy New Year!

[/QUOTE]

Iván

BTW: Have a happy New Year, I'm already starting to get drunk because our party starts in a few minutes.

Edited by ivan_2068