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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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I found another copy of Yes Fragile (The third one I have).
All lyrics (c) 1972, Cotillion Music This I can tell you as a lawyer, who works in trademarks, no company releases an album without previously making the legal inscription of the music and lyrics.
ATLANTIC RECORDING CORPORATION 1841 BROADWAY, NEW YORK, NEW YORK10024 (P) 1972, ATLANTIC RECORDING CORPORATION 3.- Vynil label (Green, white and Red), SAME ALBUM STEREO TWO (P) 1972 ATLANTIC Ok, Gomah, this is not a regurgitated info, it's an original LP that clearly states all the lyrics have been registered in 1972 and the album released in the same year, I have it on my hands right now. But if you still doubt, here is a copy of the lyrics and copyright data (This is official, you can't claim it was registered after the original date of release:
If you check, both copyright signs (Irving and Cotillon) are dated in 1972, probably one is from UK and the other from USA (Not sure of this though). If I'm mistaken, again I apologize with the members of the forum, but let me have my doubts, because this huge evidence can't be all wrong (Not only the three copies of Fragile I own and have quoted or copied) but also two official sites and Prog Archives. There must be some hidden fact to create such a mess, probably there was a short edition NON OFFICIAL released in 1971 (What I doubt, because nobody would release an album without copyrighting it first, this would be stupid and I assure you the lawyers of Cotillon are not stupid) or maybe the charts refer to one of the various 45 RPM versions of Roundabout with Long Distance Roundaround. This would be the reason why the fan in Micky's post said it was released before September 1971, the green copy is so old that if I'm not wrong, Rick Wakeman doesn't appear. It's so evident that this was done on the run (Tuesday, Jan 4 1972, second working day of the year), that this edition of the album has a (P) Patent Pending, what means they released the album inmediately after being printed without giving time to the registers to give a definitive copyright, something that is almost automatic. This doesn't happen with any other Yes album, because the data in all is precise, this is the only album from the whole Yes catalogue that has this problem. Again, if I'm wrong I apologize with the forum members, but all the evidence gathered is very solid and if it's a mistake it's shared by almost all the web pages on Internet and even in the official releases. Iván Edited by ivan_2068 |
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micky ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46843 |
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a short NON official release... perhaps. Irregardless, the album was released in '71 and was indeed on the charts, and rather high up I'd say. I have to appreciate your quandry, I was in the same position last night, having my doubts as to your claims because the evidence I was seeing didn't support it, an album released in '72 shouldn't be on the charts in '71. That it was on the charts in '71 is a fact. Think it over though, a '72 release makes no sense. As the tale goes, Fragile was recorded to help offset the new 'goodies' for Wakeman, and of course out of the heat of the moment that the initial rehearsals with Wakeman. Why would an album, recorded in Sept of '71 be held on to for at least 4 months. Knowing as you probably do the way album releases worked in the 70's. Albums were actually scheduled for release to time with the hollidays, would Yes and Atlantic Records have sat on an album for that long through tours of the U.S. and Europe, and the Christmas shopping season ( was a prime factor then in album releases.. seen multiple references to the record companies back then pushing for albums to come out before or at the very least during the X-mas shopping time) Even in '71 Rock was big business it appears hahahhahah. |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46843 |
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now that that discussion has hopefuly been laid to rest, didn't mean for all that to come about ....
hahhaha your last post just hit me Ivan, you have 3 copies of Fragile. I'd be curious to know how many copies of various albums you have of a group you truly love, ...say Genesis. ![]() Edited by micky |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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I want to be honest, yesterday I followed this thread because I'm stubborn (As you also are I just gave the number of one of the oficial releases and all the data refers to 1971. But what convinced me more was that the lyrics are copyrighted in 1972 (Both labels), and believe me, if I know about something it's about laws, no lawyer of abig corporation would allow any of his bands to release an album withut having all rights reserved or at least a pending patent. But, it's a mystery, that I will try to solve, after New Year, Iván |
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micky ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46843 |
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hahah, if your knowledge of the law surpasses your knowledge of prog.. I'll keep far away from Peru as possible hahahahah ![]() |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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The Miracle ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: May 29 2005 Location: hell Status: Offline Points: 28427 |
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It was funny to read a whole page of these long posts arguing when an album was released Ivan is one of the most stubborn people I've ever known |
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micky ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46843 |
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yeah, that's why I've always enjoyed talking to him. I've met my soul-mate hahahah |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Fragile is a very particular case, as a fact I have 5 copies: In the ancient ages (mid 70's), no Prog LP's were ever released in Perú (Except Wakeman's but because of the classical connection), but one day a Peruvian label Discos El Virrey (Viceroy Records) started with 8 releases that I'll try to remember:
Of course this albums were already two or three years old when released in Perú, I bought every one except the last. But Peruvian LP's were crap, after two or three complete times you listened, they were full of scratches, plus that this guys used a plastic bag inside the art cover instead of a paper bag, that melted in hot summers.(That's one) In 1978 I went to study to Birmingham Alabama, and bought my second Fragile LP copy (Plus almost 80 albums, it was like heaven to see so many albums I never even imagined) -That's two- In 1991 bought my first CD player in Miami (A JVC in Circuit City In 1995, my best friend died in a car accident and his mother thought I would appreciate more his album collection and inherited all of them, including an original UK first edition (At least I believed that until today) Fragile LP in perfect condition. -That's four- In Christmas 2004 my uncle (Who is just a couple years older than me) came from New Jersey and brought me some albums remastered including Device Voice Drums (Kansas) and Fragile -That's five- I always wished I had only four, but that's how life works. So, it's a special case, I never buy more than one CD copy to upgrade all my LP's, almost never get remastered editions (Don't really care), but in this case, I had to buy two LP's (Because one was completely scratched) one CD (To upgrade my LP as I did with most of my early albums) and the other two were for free, one a gift and other inherited. Another one that I had 5 copies is The War of the Worlds (One stolen and replaced LP, the second I lend to a friend who never returned it to me- one original cassette in 1991 -there was no CD in that store- one Cd a couple of years later and the 25 Anniversary edition deluxe that my uncle brought last Christmas. I don't have more than an LP and a CD of the rest of my albums. The Miracle wrote:
Yep, and I admit it, but you can't deny that I always have fundament to be stubborn, maybe I take Prog' too seriously and have an excellent memory, so I remember a lot of dark info. Iván Edited by ivan_2068 |
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Gomah ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: September 02 2005 Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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Damn it, I am back to this argument again Iván: And I think your argument about the copyright issue does not apply. You know that copyright can be national wide, so the company holding the rights to that song in US might have been different from the one in UK, and the UK LP publisher was Rondor Music (London) not Cotillion Music, anyway you know these stuff better than me. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Damn it, I am sucked back to this argument again.
Don't want to argue more, but about the copyright, if you read my post you'll notice this which I quoted from the official lyrics of Fragile and gave the source:
*©1972 Irving, BMI. I'm aware that copyright is only nationwide (That's precisely my work) and here are two copyright symbols, one is from USA and the other is from UK Publishers (and as you see both are from 1972. "Gomah wrote:
Of course you're right, but at the same time you're wrong, I never said Cotillion was the UK publisher, Cotillion Music is the Publisher in USA:
Cotillion Music, Inc./Walden Music
Of Course RONDOR RELEASED FRAGILE IN UK, but you didn't knew that RONDOR AND IRVING RECORDS WORK TOGETHER IN UK and are the same thing.
Irving Music, Inc. As you probably noticed, the beholder of the copyright of FRAGILE in UK is precisely IRVING MUSIC = RONDOR who released FRAGILE in UK as you well said and as I quoted. So the lyrics were copyrighted in UK by IRVING MUSIC (Beholder of Rondor) and in USA by COTILLION In both countries the album was copyrighted in 1972 Thanks for the new argument.. But let's better agree to disagree, I'm too tired to argue and don't want to start a New Year with this issue. Cheers Iván BTW: Please, don't try to teach me laws. Edited by ivan_2068 |
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Gomah ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: September 02 2005 Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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Never did your honor! |
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Not Your Honor, just call me Doctor Not a word about the last post? Do you agree that FRAGILE was also copyrighted in UK on 1972? BTW: I already had given a step back in this thread, but you insisted to bring me again into it, and who am I to reject a good argument? Especially if you're giving me some nice fundaments. Iván Edited by ivan_2068 |
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Gomah ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: September 02 2005 Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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Sorry, didn't get the point, so you got a PhD in Law?
Well, I thoght we were not supposed to argue again, thats why I kept silent. And again you are "bending the truth"
Yes, add this to one of your lost cases Edited by Gomah |
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TheLamb ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: November 18 2005 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 416 |
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interesting stuff........ keep it coming
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Moogtron III ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: April 26 2005 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 10616 |
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Well, I got a degree in law too, and I just want to say this... that both Nursery Cryme and Fragile feature magnificent music, and that I like Fragile a little bit more |
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Genesisprog ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 14 2005 Location: Estonia Status: Offline Points: 188 |
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Nursery Cryme .Fragile-they have one similar thing for me I listen them rarely and when Yes CTTE,The Yes album,GFTO,Time and a word are listened then I listen Fragile.I just dont have warm feelings against that album.I listen Nursery rarely too.I listen it when SEBTP ,Foxtrot ,TLLDOB are already listened and I dont want to listen them anymore.Trick of the tail and TFTO comes last for me .But still I like Nursery Cryme more than Fragile |
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Frank Zappa,Pink Floyd,Yes,Genesis,Rush,King Crimson,Jethro Tull,E.L.P,Rick Wakeman -They have one similarity- I Love Them all !
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micky ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46843 |
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ah nothing like a class in copyright laws aye! hahah. My point is
and was, it was released and charted in '71 and I think that has
been shown, so I'm going to step back and get a free class from a
lawyer about copyrighting.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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EDIT: Sorry for not leaving the building, but this a pleasure that i couldn't resist: Gonah wrote:
IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here is a copy of the parts of the UK Copyright Act:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_2.htm #mdiv2 This means that nobody could copyright Fragile until 1996 or 1997, so your argument is WRONG. w
and those acts are referred to in this Part as the "acts restricted by the copyright". http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_3.htm #mdiv16 This means nobody except Irving in UK and Cotillion in USA can make a copy of FRAGILE until 1996 or 1997, so the Irving copyright of FRAGILE from 1992 IS THE FIRST AND ONLY VALID IN UK. In the case you say that the owner of the music and lyrics of Fragile is Yes and they can give it to anybody, I'm informing you this is not correct either: t
In this case, Atlantic is the owner of the rights of the music and lyrics, but obviously they share them with IRVING - RONDOR in UK and COTILLION in USA to copyright the lyrics as Publishers of the album. Now I'm leaving the building
Edited by ivan_2068 |
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Gomah ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: September 02 2005 Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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Doctor: Thanks for the Copyright heads-up. Before we go on any further on this argument I would like to make a few points clear: 1- There is a UK release of Fragile in November 1971: Atlantic 2401-019 Now back to Copyright issue. I never said you were wrong that it was copyrighted in 1972, but what I am telling you is that it could have been copyrighted in UK earlier under the SAME or a different company. You say that it cannot be under a different company, my evidence shows that it could have been, maybe they transferred the copyright to another company. I used Topographic as an example because I was sure it existed back then, despite what you think. If you believe in Yesworld: http://yesworld.com/lyrics/KeysToAscension.html Roundabout******* Starship Trooper******** ******* © 1971 Yessongs / Topographic Music, Ltd / Rondor Music (London) Ltd. Here again you clearly see that Roundabout was actually copyrighted by Topographic Music, Ltd / Rondor Music (London) Ltd. in 1971 in UK but in US it was under Cotillion. Almost the same for Starship Trooper. Here they didn't mention the UK copyright at all: http://yesworld.com/lyrics/TheYesAlbum.html To add to your confusion, I would like you to take a look at the following picture: What you see is that songs 1, 3 & 4 are under Rondor Music (London) /Yessongs, which includes Roundabout too. However if Rondor and Irving were exactly the same why they didn’t claim copyright for Cans and Brahms too? I don’t think they were exactly the same, according to the history of Rondor and Irving, Rondor was created to handle Irving international business out of US: http://www.onamrecords.com/Rondor_History.html. However I am a bit confused, who was the copyright owner of Cans and Brahms in the UK 1971 release? And please, don’t tell me that what you see on that LP is 1972. Honestly sometimes I see it as 1971 and sometimes as 1972, but I think in that font, 2 should have more curves than what is already in the picture and other pictures like below and descriptions of the LPs can help you to tell that it is actually 1971. Ok, now you can safely leave the building! Happy New Year! Edited by Gomah |
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Before I answer and explain all your points let me tell you I have the definitive PROVE, anythig you say is futile:
Check page 16 - Discography First take a look at the self titled album (YES), it says: UK Release date, July 25, 1969 US release date: October 15, 1969 7567-81147-1/2 (Official andoriginal catalog number, which is correlative) As you can see, clearly discriminates between the UK and US release, when there's a difference NOW TAKE A LOOK AT FRAGILE in the same page: RELEASE DATE: JAN 4, 1972 7567-81531-1/4/2 (Official and only valid original catalog number, correlative - Yes Album was 7567-81530-1/4/2 and Close to the Edge was 7567-81532-1/4/2 ) No reference to USA or UK release, only OFFICIAL DATE OF RELEASE Now read Page 8, third Parragraph: Released in the OPENING MOMENTS OF 1972, FRAGILE contained...... All areliteral quotes of an OFFICIAL YES SOURCE, printed and sold to all the world, so This is the last post I answere, because it's pristine clear for me.
Don't be stubborn, the rights of Fragile belong ONLY to IRVING BMI (UK) AND COTILLION, BMI (USA), can't you read that?????? Here again you clearly see that Roundabout was actually copyrighted by Topographic Music, Ltd / Rondor Music (London) Ltd. In 1971 in UK I told you, Topographic Music bought the existing rights from Yessongs Ltd after Relayer To add to your confusion, I would like you to take a look at the following picture: READ THE LABEL, IT SAYS What you see is that songs 1, 3 & 4 are under Rondor Music (London) /Yessongs The photo doesn't mention Yessongs only Rondor which I already proved is also IRVING Inc,, which includes Roundabout too. However if Rondor and Irving were exactly the same why they didn’t claim copyright for Cans and Brahms too? Again, Cans & Brahms is a SOLO WAKEMAN song included in a Yes album, and the owner of the copyright of Wakeman solo works was A&M RECORDS I don’t think they were exactly the same, according to the history of Rondor and Irving, Rondor was created to handle Irving international business out of US What you think is notr important, read my quote of Rondor, it says that when you find an asterisk sign before IRVING MUSIC, it means that it's being Published by Rondor.: http://www.onamrecords.com/Rondor_History.html. YOUR LINK DOESN'T WORK However I am a bit confused, who was the copyright owner of Cans and Brahms in the UK 1971 release? For the third time, Cans & Brahms was owned by A&M Records, the company thatowned Rick Wakeman's work And please, don’t tell me that what you see on that LP is 1972. Honestly sometimes I see it as 1971 and sometimes as 1972, but I think in that font, 2 should have more curves than what is already in the picture and other pictures like below and descriptions of the LPs can help you to tell that it is actually 1971 THANK YOU, IT SAYS 1971, BUT IF YOU LOOK CAREFULLY, THERE'S NOT A (c) OF COPYRIGHT BESIDE 1971, BUT A (P) WHICH MEANS PATENT PENDING, THIS PROVES THAT THE COPYRIGHT WAS ASKED IN 1971 AFTER BEING RECORDED, BUT THEY COULDN'T RELEASE THE ALBUM UNTIL IT WAS COPYRIGHTED IN 1972....THANK YOU AGAIN FOR THE PHOTO. Let me tell you something, there are two posibilities:
Ok, now you can safely leave the building! Happy New Year! [/QUOTE] Iván BTW: Have a happy New Year, I'm already starting to get drunk because our party starts in a few minutes. Edited by ivan_2068 |
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