Is Pink Floyd the most influential prog rock band?

Lionheart wrote: And *none* of it had any real "prog" structure to it. A few string sections here and there doesn't mean you are "prog". Again, it's still rooted in psychedelic. Have you ever checked that Psyche is a Progressive Rock sub-genre?   And what about their Space Rock elements? What about the Symphonic, Fusion, etc?   Not really. Yes is a prog band. Early Genesis was a prog band. Banco is a prog band. Pink Floyd is an influential psychedelic band. Pink Floyd has never gone into the same musical territories that any of the aforementioned bands did. Please give arguments.   I will simply say something, is true that Genesis, Yes, King and Banco del Mutuo Soccorso (The real name of the band), are dfferent, they are/were Symphonic bands in some stage of their career, Pink Floyd wasn't mainly Symphonic.   A Ktraut, Zeuhl, Avant, Rio, Post Rock band will have less in common with Yes and Genesis thatn Pink Floyd.   here's a *massive* confusion between "conceptual" and "prog".   I believe you are the only person who has that confusion, you said:   Lionheart wrote: ]Pink Floyd is not a prog band. They are a psychedelic band with conceptual leanings.   I clearly replied you that there's not such thing as conceptual music:   Ivan wrote: ]A band is not conceptual, that's a characteristic of determined albums that tell a story that is as long as the album where songs are almost as chapters of a novel,. but there's not such thing as a conceptual band. Not even Rick Wakeman with more conceptual albums than anybody, he's a Symphonic musician who also played New Age during a period of his life and that's all   So, it's clear that if somebody is confuseed it's you.   "Conceptual" means that there is a (somewhat) coherent story line that runs through a work. But, it's describing the *narrative or subject*, not the *music*. Prog is a definition of *music*, not *narrative*.   For God's sake, that's what i said correcting you, you can read the two quotes in the previous parragraph.   Without getting completely derailed by people who can't seem to define anything, please let the music be the music, and let the narrative be the narrative.   We all know Conceptual is an album with a story, that's all, you are the one talking about bands with conceptual leanings.   Conceptual leanings means exactly how it is worded.   PLEASE EXPLAIN IT, you are saying nothing, what in hell is a band with conceptual leanings?    They delved into it and made some decent cash at the same time (and later criticizing the very audience who enjoyed it and payed for it), but I suppose we should save Roger Waters' *monumental arrogance* for another thread.   Now we reach the mother of the lamb, you don't like Pink Floyd, you believe Roger Waters ego is monumental, then you decide Pink Floyd  is not Prog, because a band you don't like with a member that has a monumental ego (Not bigger than Fripp's or Wakeman's) can't be Prog.   But, The Wall is not "prog". It's "conceptual psychedelic".   Please, you said lines above that Conceptual is a term that can't be aplied to music and now you talk about "Conceptuual Psychedelic".   But I'll pretend I understand your contradictions...Have you heard The Wall,,,Where is the Psychedelic content, The Wall is completely distanced from psychedelia.   Please ilustrate us about the psyche elements in The Wall.   Iván

No Iván, i did not said that ALL bands were influenced by Pink Floyd. I said that Pink Floyd gave birth to Space Rock almost by itself, meaning that, although being the major force behind the early years of Space Rock, there were other bands that also helped in the process.

Here is what i said in verbis:

Seriously, a band that literally give birth to Space Rock almost by itself (and that space rock HEAVILY influenced Krautrock) is VERY influential, and that ONLY COUNTING PROG ROCK.

Secondly Iván, i don't really think Genesis have influence in all prog metal genres and to say that may be a bit pushy. Maybe they are influential in progressive metal, like in the bands you listed (though in Dream Theater and in Pain of Salvation the Floyd influence is MUCH bigger; i mean, DT covered DSotM and Daniel Gildenlöw composing style, both musical and lyrical, is extremely influenced by Waters / Pink Floyd), but in experimental / avant-garde / post metal and in extreme / technical progressive metal i can't think of a band that is influenced by Genesis. In fact, i know more bands influenced by Jethro Tull in those genres than bands influenced by Genesis, and i am serious.

Thirdly, again, if you want to bring this down to numbers things will really become ugly for Genesis. OK ill be nice and give Genesis the full Neo genre. All 200 bands. However, that is only 1 (one) genre. Genesis influence in Symphonic is not so big because there are lots of important bands in the Symphonic genre, like Yes, Camel (who was influenced by Floyd), ELP, Focus, Renaissance, etc, and i will only mention the 70's bands.

Knowing that, lets count how many prog genres (that are listed in PA) Pink Floyd influenced DIRECTLY / was the most important founding father: Space Rock and Krautrock. I don't know very much prog electronic, but the Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream albums i have seem to be somehow influenced by Floyd, but i don't really know. Now, counting Space Rock and Krautrock alone you have 2 (two) whole genres that were heavily influenced by Floyd.

Moving to other genres, we have a lot of bands in Symphonic that were influenced by PF, a considerable amount in Heavy prog and an ENORMOUS amount of bands in ALL progressive metal genres that were influenced by Pink Floyd. I'm not saying that all bands were influenced, just a VERY LARGE NUMBER in every progressive metal genre were and IS influenced by Pink Floyd.

Now, adding up everything, i think that PF have its influence well spread in at least 5 (five) genres of progressive rock listed in PA: Space Rock, Krautrock, Progressive Metal, Experimental / Post Metal and Tech / Extreme Progressive Metal. If here we don't have more than 200 bands influenced by Pink Floyd i will seriously stop listening progressive rock for the rest of my life. It is simply not possible!

How's that for adding clappies?

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Certif1ed wrote:   Maybe it's just me, but I don't really get the drift of this argument, or understand where the "facts" have come from.   I do not believe that there are only 133 Kraut bands - maybe there are 133 bands classified as Kraut in the archives, but I think that there are many, many more we have not yet included - so the numbers given here are moot.   That's why I said 133 Kraut bands in Prog Archives, but the same can be said about Neo Prog, we have almost 200 bands but surely there are more I can make a huge list of Neo Prog bands that are listed in other sites and we don't have them, as well as borderline Neo prog bands with clear Genesis influence that are in other genres, from Prog Related to Crossover and even Symphonic,

Certif1ed wrote:       All I said was that, from the descriptions, I don't understand what the music is supposed to sound like - and that ProgArchives seems to be the only place that actually tries to define it.   Not true either other sites define Symphonic, the fact that you haven't read them doesn't imply we are the only site trying to define Symphonic.   1.- Symphonic Progressive Characterized by lush keys/synths and very melodic vocals and usually written like a piece of classical music - i.e. "Symphonic." Different from Neo-progressive by being much more complicated, especially in rhythm or scale structure. Bands Yes, Genesis (early), Camel, Atoll, Teru's Symphonia, etc.   http://www.gepr.net/gepr_styles.html     2.- Symphonic rock is a subgenre of rock music, and more specifically, progressive rock. Since early in progressive rock's history, the term has been used sometimes to distinguish more classically influenced progressive rock from the more psychedelic and experimental offerings. Symphonic rock is best described as the combining of rock and classical music traditions. Some artists perform rock arrangements of themes from classical music, or compose original pieces in classical composition structures. Others play with the accompaniment of a symphony orchestra or use a synthesizer to emulate orchestral instruments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphonic_rock    3.- Classic Prog (or Symphonic Rock) - This is the category where we find most of what we have come to know as progressive rock bands. The aspect of orchestration is the most important characteristic. Songs will be longish, contain extended solos for emphasis, changes in time and tempo, and more than any other category highlighted by strong dynamics and changes in mood. Very much an album oriented classification, like classical rock much was borrowed in terms of arrangement and structure. Lyrics involve many aspects, but typically more philosophical or fantasy oriented even in their telling of modern day subjects. http://www.e-prog.net/genre/subgenre.htm By Jerry Lucky   4.- However, “In The Court Of The Crimson King” is symphonic prog). YES were playing symphonic prog, so called because of the use of a symphonic orchestra. GENESIS were already recording at the end of the Sixties, but their link to progressive rock was not yet defined. With the album “Trespass,” things became clearer about GENESIS. YES and GENESIS remain icons in symphonic rock music. Other bands followed their steps later: e.g., GENTLE GIANT and CAMEL, among others. At the same time as symphonic rock was developing in Great Britain, many Italian bands were writing and performing a similar type of music: e.g., BANCO DEL MUTUO SOCCORSO (BDMS), PREMIATA FORNERIA MARCONI (PFM), Le ORME, and QUELLA VECCHIA LOCANDA (QVL), among others. These two countries were the most prolific as far as progressive rock is concerned. http://progrockmp3.blogspot.com/2006/10/index-b-development.html   5.- 2).  Symphonic rock - A relatively easy one, symphonic rock lumps together those bands that seem to draw heavily from incorporating orchestral and classical influences into their music. This term is generally seen attached to 70s progressive bands, though it would not be out of the question to label some of today's bands as such. Still, many of the less progressive metal bands that incorporate symphonic elements will less arguably fall into the category of "power metal" (see below) http://www.progrockandmetal.net/progressive_music_definition.htm   Are five enough or you want the link for more?    And still believe our's is the most clear.   If you think I'm that important or influential that what I say goes, then I'm flattered - but again, I don't see the evidence - people argue with me all the time   No, I think you believe you're so influential   [ If I had any understanding of the nature of the music, then I would provide a definition in a flash - but people seem to prefer to argue about which bands are or aren't, rather than get deep down and dirty in the music itself - which is where I like to hang out.   So, you have heard Yes, Genesis, ELP, etc for many years and with your musical abbilities you can't attempt a definition while people with less musical knowledge attempt definitions in so many sites as I proved you lines above?    Well, I can think of many Neo Prog bands that weren't influenced by Genesis (e.g. Twelfth Night, h era Marillion, The Enid, etc.) - and I do not agree with the claims of Fish sounding like Gabriel, etc., so this is opinion, not fact - and you cannot put a number on it without examples.   Yes, there's a good number of not influenced, but not the great majority.     Can you think of specific examples?   I don't claim to be an expert on Prog Metal, but as I said before, i doubt many Prog Metal bands are really and clearly influenced by Pink Floyd or Genesis.   Possibly, but I think unlikely - as I said, I wouldn't want to do the experiment myself, but Floyd are testable - can you provide discrete examples for Genesis?   Why, because you say it?   It doesn't really matter what the bands say - the evidence is in the music, not hearsay.   So Unifaun, a band who creates the songs Genesis never did are not influenced because they don't copy a track?, Or Rael who are almost clones, etc.   I will certainly explore that single example - got any more to beat my 5 (I'll give you "Grendel" as a bonus, so you only need 3 more)   Lets see, even when i don't like that approach:   Children of the Sun by Magenta,the whole song is a complete recreaqtion of Genesis and Yes 70's music. Virgule by Ange, clearly a recreation of 4 men era Genesis The Healer by Arena, a classical genesis 5 men era inspired track Galadriel The watch But that's the most obvious and simplistic way to search for influences, if you listen a determined album or song by any band and the texture, sound and atmosphere rmind you of Genesis without copying a determined siong, it's also influence, but you asked for three I gave you 4.  No, I'm only saying that you can prove influence through the music. If a band has actually used chunks of another band's music, then that is fairly irrefutable, wouldn't you agree?   That's too obvious and simplistic, that's closer to cloning that being influenced.   If a band merely cites another as influence, it's a bit like the scene in Spinal Tap, where Nigel Tufnel states that he's influenced by Mozart and Bach...     Spinal tap is a joke and you know it Cert, talk me about real bands and about what the musicians based their music in.   Actually, that is not true.   If you read what I said, you'll note that I said that the evidence I'm providing is as close to empirical as you can get. I have NEVER stated that everything I say is fact.   But every tiime you debate with somebody you claim your's is the obnly valid perspective, to the poibnt of telling me (And you rememnber that) that your nick is certif1ed because your musical knowledge is certified.     5, actually - and I can provide loads more. It's not just my word, Ivan - the evidence is in the music! Welcome to the world of facts!   Have you noticed that people that respect your knowledge usually disagree with your position?   Well that happens to everybody, what you say is only your perception.   Of course I'm not going to list every one I could think of - what a waste of time that would be.    I wouldn't even attempt it, because it would be futile, youwould say you cann't listen them because we don't link it to a determined second in a determined song..     Specific examples?   Not just bands, but songs, and the songs cited, otherwise that's just a claim. Anyone can make a list - that is not evidence.   Weren't these bands also influenced by Pink Floyd?   That's not the way I search for influences, i'm not trying to find musical quotes or cloned passages, only an influence.     [Sorry - but none of that is reason, just opinion - I'm not being unfair, as none of it can be tested in the music - except for the one piece of music you've named and compared to a specific Genesis song - I look forward to verifying it   Again, that's the way you see it, listen UNIFAUN for example, not a single specific reference, but the effect when listening the album is that you are listening Genesis.   I do not believe that Genesis were even nearly as influential as Pink Floyd - but if you can find the empirical evidence to support your claim, not just hearsay from bands claiming influence, or vague similarities, but actual, irrefutable influence, then all power to you - I look forward to listening to some great music     I don't believe the similarities are vague, you want to see them vague, a similarity is enough to talk about influence, otherwise we would be talking of cloning or copying.   Or do you believe that for example Triumvirat is not ELP influenced or early Rush influuenced by Led Zeppelin?   Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 03 2008 at 00:09

Atavachron wrote: Floyd had a bigger impact on rock and pop in general than it did 'progressive rock', IMO, and wasn't it Gilmour who said Floyd may have been art-rock but not prog ? I'd give biggest influence in prog to ELP, frankly   ..Genesis not even close (perhaps due to the extraodinary level of musicianship and inspiration), nor Yes or Tull.

cacho wrote: WRONG! I own the TRUTH! *runs like a cheetah, knowing Ivan will eat him*

^Good for you!....and me, hehe....

Rice and bread? Ahh, yesterday ate fried eggs with rice, yum! My father, which I told you is from Perú too, used to eat that when he was a young folk like me there on Perú, but he ate fried eggs for breakfast! Which for us, at least me, it's odd and a very heavy(not in weight) food, specially for breakfast!

 ^ yes I've stashed chocolate in my time, never can be too careful

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: [   I'm used to eat bread, with Peruvian ham and coffee for breakfast.   Iván

It's hard, because coffee with sugar substitute tastes like cr@p , I can only eat Arab bread (totally plain) and no mixing meat with it.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 02 2008 at 19:03