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Peter View Drop Down
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Prog becoming Metal?
    Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:02
Before you respond, please take a thorough look around the site. It seems to me that roughly half of the topics are about metal, and at least half of our members are here primarily because of metal, and the way metal has now become "prog." Stern Smile
 
If what unites all the diverse music(s) here is the adjective "prog" (or "progressive") in front of (or after) the original category, as in "prog metal," "prog rock," "prog folk," etc, then where are the "prog country," "prog rap," "prog disco/dance" "prog soul" "prog ska," etc, artists? If metal can be so easily added here, why not country? Does the appearance of the vague term "prog" in front of an long-standing category really mean "good," "complex" or "non-commercial?" (If so, clearly define -- not subjectively -- those terms in a musical context, please!Confused)
 
I assure you, there is good, more complex, non-commercial country out there, and I am told that intelligent, "above average" rap exists too.
 
So why is metal apparently favoured as an example of "progressive" music? Twenty years from now, will "prog" basically mean metal, or at least "technically-accomplished metal with keyboards?"
 
To me, historic "prog" was an uplifting thing of beauty and grandeur. How do lightning-fast songs with vomited vocals about how everything sucks, and which celebrate the artist's disfunctionality and isolation from humanity, square with the (generally) uplifting (or at least very varied in subject and mood) "thrust" of classic progressive rock?
 
Are smiles, beauty, wonder and reaching out to our fellows in a spirit of unity all totally "uncool" now? Have complaining, blaming and "tearing down" taken the place of building up?
 
Too bad, I say.Ouch
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O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
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Points: 24440 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:11
I have noticed this trend as well, and been somewhat puzzled. However, as you may have noticed, I don't share your negative attitude towards ALL metal. I still listen to many of the classic Seventies and Eighties bands, who show almost none of the characteristics that you have described in the above messages. OK, you may not like the style, but people like Ronnie James Dio, Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson CAN definitely sing - nor are their lyrics about how everything sucks. But then, that's a kind of metal that many younger listeners find somehow unfashionable.

I, for one, admit to being slightly repulsed by bands showing an overt Satanic or Neo-Pagan bent - not because I'm a devout Christian (I'm more of an agnostic, as a matter of fact), but because in-your-face negativity disturbs me, no matter how good or progressive the music may be (and the political implications are often quite dodgy, to say the least). And then, there is the matter of the vocals... I like singers who can actually sing, even when they have unconventional voices (the prime example of that being Roger Waters), therefore death growls or black metal shrieks are not really my cup of tea. Call me old- fashioned, but that's the way it is.

However, as I said before, I think we should avoiding lumping all metal in the same box, even if we don't like it particularly. That said, the fact that a good half of the new additions to this site seem to belong to the Prog-Metal genre gives me pause too.
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Points: 618 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:14
theres is a fine line between the metal prog lover and the folk/ambient/melodic prog lover
but they eventually drift apart
and metal will be metal
and prog will be prog
 
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Points: 10063 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:20
*Takes a deep breath and dive*
Hello Peter!Hug
 
If what unites all the diverse music(s) here is the adjective "prog" (or "progressive") in front of (or after) the original category, as in "prog metal," "prog rock," "prog folk," etc, then where are the "prog country," "prog rap," "prog disco/dance" "prog soul" "prog ska," etc, artists? If metal can be so easily added here, why not country? Does the appearance of the vague term "prog" in front of an long-standing category really mean "good," "complex" or "non-commercial?" (If so, clearly define -- not subjectively -- those terms in a musical context, please!Confused)
I still have to hear a prog ska, prog country etc. music... But if there is... Im very interested to hear that...
 
I assure you, there is good, more complex, non-commercial country out there, and I am told that intelligent, "above average" rap exists too.
 
So why is metal apparently favoured as an example of "progressive" music? Twenty years from now, will "prog" basically mean metal, or at least "technically-accomplished metal with keyboards?"  Uhm... no.... prog wont mean just metal...
 
To me, historic "prog" was an uplifting thing of beauty and grandeur. How do lightning-fast songs with vomitedLOL vocals about how everything sucks, and which celebrate the artist's disfunctionality and isolation from humanity, square with the (generally) uplifting (or at least very varied in subject and mood) "thrust" of classic progressive rock? ... a matter of taste... some classic progressive rock also had its share of deppressing, negative lyrics... and not all prog metal is negative...
 
Are smiles, beauty, wonder and reaching out to our fellows in a spirit of unity all totally "uncool" now? No, still very cool! Have complaining, blaming and "tearing down" taken the place of building up? Of course not..
 
please dont hate me...Embarrassed I also listen to Yes, Genesis, Camel, Rush, Jethro Tull, King Crimson, Return To Forever etc.. etc...
 
 

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Points: 246 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:22
Prog=Progressive
Prog has evolved over time so yes Prog is becoming metal, but the old ways arent dying out, they are just less popular.

As Far as Prog metal concept albums. I dont think you could be more wrong. A majority of GOOD prog metal (Between the Buried and me...I dont know how they got onto this site) Deals with more philosophical Ideas. Some just tell random made up stories based on some truth My Arms Your Hearse or Remedy Lane.  Right now the future of Prog is in metal, but I do not see the past being forgotten, but things have to change to survive, you said that prog is what unites all the bands on this site. While Prog has never been mainstream, it has always surfaced near the top and lurks below what is mainstreem. Right now many people are listening to metal/hardcore/alternative Prog has had to evolve with it. I hope this makes sense I ramble alot and lose my train of thought
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Points: 808 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:22
I think the term metal prog should be used rather than prog metal   ...understand what I`m saying ?     with metal metal always comes first  no matter what style it is in   and should be named that way    
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Points: 5308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:32
I have a simple explanation why Prog Metal exists in considerably bigger amounts than Prog Country and Prog Rap Peter. It has really been said a hundred of times, but Metal has come a long way evolving from rock'n'roll music. What was considered Metal 35 years ago is now Hard Rock and to some not even all that hard anymore. Who knows, perhaps after decades from now people will change their perception as well.
 
Now that we have remembered that Metal came out of Rock, before it started to sound significantly different, let's remember what Prog is. Is it just a specific sound, meaning that only things deserving of the 'Prog' stamp are unimaginiative, derivative acts that do not create anything, but only reaarange and enhance the music that was original decades ago? Or is it a musical direction, that really does progress and, whilst not being completely restricted to a specific sound, has certain characteristics and traits, by which an open-minded listener will be able to tell Prog from non-Prog any time of day?
 
We all know Country and Rap haven't been influenced by rock'n'roll nearly as much as Metal has. It all makes sense now that it is the most wide and diverse scene in Prog today, if you think about it.
 
Now, going into the argument of beauty in Metal. I will be blunt and frank here, Metal is a dark, often depressing genre of music, making its bleak soundscapes unbearable for a fan of lighter, happier musicks. However, to say that there is no beauty in Metal, but only technique and anger, would be to misunderstand the whole genre. Much like the 70's greats, the modern Metal bands, and I do mean the promising and original ones, know how to write beautiful, majestic and eerie compositions.
 
Since it is always preferrable to listen to more music than to argue about it with little perception, I suggest you check this Agalloch sample Peter, of a band that is considered Prog-Metal: http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAND.asp?band_id=1933
 
And it's just one fish in the ocean of fascinating Prog-Metal out there!
 
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Peter View Drop Down
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:36
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

I have noticed this trend as well, and been somewhat puzzled. However, as you may have noticed, I don't share your negative attitude towards ALL metal. I still listen to many of the classic Seventies and Eighties bands, who show almost none of the characteristics that you have described in the above messages. OK, you may not like the style, but people like Ronnie James Dio, Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson CAN definitely sing - nor are their lyrics about how everything sucks. But then, that's a kind of metal that many younger listeners find somehow unfashionable.

I, for one, admit to being slightly repulsed by bands showing an overt Satanic or Neo-Pagan bent - not because I'm a devout Christian (I'm more of an agnostic, as a matter of fact), but because in-your-face negativity disturbs me, no matter how good or progressive the music may be (and the political implications are often quite dodgy, to say the least). And then, there is the matter of the vocals... I like singers who can actually sing, even when they have unconventional voices (the prime example of that being Roger Waters), therefore death growls or black metal shrieks are not really my cup of tea. Call me old- fashioned, but that's the way it is.

However, as I said before, I think we should avoiding lumping all metal in the same box, even if we don't like it particularly. That said, the fact that a good half of the new additions to this site seem to belong to the Prog-Metal genre gives me pause too.
Actually, GR, I do enjoy some metal, at some times (& metal was what I generally listened to before getting heavily into prog as a young teen).
 
My post and question is not so much "anti" metal, as it is pondering the future of "prog," and the evolution (devolution?) of the term "prog."
 
Will this site basically be a metal fan's site in the future, with classic prog and its beauty (and often uplifting, spiritual lyrics) relegated to some dusty corner frequented by a few "naive" old hippies, who "foolishly" believed in all that uncool, pie-in-the-sky, peace and love stuff?
 
De we modern humans increasingly prefer to wallow in our angst, and musically reinforce all our darkest moods and tendencies? Will "prog" be the soundtrack with which we go to war, and blow away the little (human) blobs of green light on the armored vehicle's video screen? Is hostility and despair the new peace and love?
 
Whoops  -- ^ there I go generalizing again!Embarrassed (I know it's not ALL about that, and that you're not all filled with pubescent self-loathing and aggression out there in metal land.Smile) But is prog, for all intents and purposes, as a living art form (assuming it even exists) quickly morphing into metal? (For better or worse -- all of those pesky & subjective "value" judgements aside.)
 
Question What is "prog?" now, in the 21st Century, and where is it going Question
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O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:44
Well, metal got me into prog.. That said I rarely listen to any metal these days.

I've nothing against prog metal. I just dont like it. As a consequence I dont listen to it, and rarely discuss it here.
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Points: 43 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:45
Well, the genre Progressive Metal has a very long history, and often, the borders are not really clear to see: Is TOOL Progressive Metal oder Progressive Rock? What's with MIND'S EYE, on the other hand? I can understand, if some are confused, because the more extreme Metal bands are listed here, only because they are progressive. That's in nearly all cases progressive Death Metal, but that's another story.
And talking about Heavy Metal in general, well, there are dozens of categories and subgenres, hell, for everyone and every motion there is a style, literallyWink.
Anyway, if you ask me, the future of Prog lies not in Metal but in the more Indie orientated corner. For me, bands like DREDG, MASTODON, COHEED AND CAMBRIA, TOOL, THE MARS VOLTA, OCEANSIZE, etc. are the future. I mean, yes, there are great newer Progressive Metal combos, but there hasn't been a single band as influential as, let's say, WATCHTOWER, FATES WARNING or DREAM THEATER since a long time, so I'm missing a bit new impulses...
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Points: 2530 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:45
Prog metal is the future      


Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.
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Points: 1043 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:46
I agree that there are a  lot of metal threads out there nowadays. I don't think it's a problem though, these threads are extra, they don't come instead of threads about other genres. What does worry me a bit is that at festivals more and more metal is played leaving less room for  other bands.
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Points: 6336 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:47
Isnt your statement a bit exaggerated?Wink
Im sure some people feel the same way about...lets say symphonic, and are worried that prog is being held as a synonymous for symphonic... dont sweat it Wink
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:50
SmileThanks for all the calm and thoughtful, non "knee jerk" responses so far!Clap
 
I know that my first post will be very provocative to many metal fans, but please, sincerely think (and look around here) before responding. My point (or question) is not so much an anti-metal one, about my own musical preferences and preconceptions, and as it is one which ponders the current perception and future of "progressive" music.Stern Smile
 
 
Again, if some metal (and folk, etc) is deemed "progressive," why not some country, rap, etc? Do all of these musical forms, from classic Yes, Genesis and Tull to Tool and "progressive death" really belong together? Ermm
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Points: 12600 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 12:51
Originally posted by horza horza wrote:

Prog metal is the future      


 
 
 
Woo Hoo!



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Points: 38974 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:07
I'd say that prog is not becoming metal so much as much metal has become prog.  Looking at this site, it does seem that metal music has become the dominant prog of these times.  I expect this trend to contnue.

As metal is a subgenre of rock it would be remiss to dismiss prog metal.

As for prog country, Kansas was inspired by country was it not?  I don't think country music by itself, even if it is progressive within that genre would make it acceptable for inclusion, but if it's progressive country-rock fusion then sure.

As for the other choices, like prog disco, there's plenty of prog rock out there which has disco elements.
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Points: 5308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:19
There are examples of these "genres", Peter. For example:
 
Progressive Country: A Ghost Is Born - Wilco
Progressive Hip-Hop: Endtroducing... - DJ Shadow, Absence - Dalek, etc.
 
It's just that Country and Hip-Hop are genres that most Prog fans "love to hate", whereas Metal, while hated, is also appreciated worldwide. That explains Prog's influence on Prog-Metal musicians.
 
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Points: 11985 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:20
Originally posted by Peter Rideout Peter Rideout wrote:

To me, historic "prog" was an uplifting thing of beauty and grandeur. How do lightning-fast songs with vomited vocals about how everything sucks, and which celebrate the artist's disfunctionality and isolation from humanity, square with the (generally) uplifting (or at least very varied in subject and mood) "thrust" of classic progressive rock?


If you are saying that Prog Rock is basically a style that evolved for about 5 or 6 years in the 1970s and that using the adjective "prog" before a musical genre does not make it similar in any way to what "we" accept as "Prog Rock" then I wholeheartedly agree.

One comparison one could make is with Sports.If one logged onto a general "Sports" website one could confidently expect to see information about "Football" (Soccer) and "NFL" (American Football.) However if one logged onto a Soccer Website one wouldnt expect to find information about NFL just because American Football is an off-shoot of soccer.Same with Cricket and Baseball,Field Hockey and Ice Hockey-so why do we not make this distinction with Prog-Metal?




    
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Points: 127 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:25
Honestly, I agree with what Logan said. Prog is still synonymous with Yes, King Crimson, Rush, for most people who care about the genre at all. It's not the prog is simply evolving into a subgenre of metal, it's that metal is becoming more intelligent.

That's not to say that primitive or old-school metal is neccesarily bad. Straight up death metal along the lines of Bloodbath or Nile is never bad. Raw black metal like Burzum has it's moments. But look at the trends of some of these bands. Burzum evolved into a highly atmospheric black metal band employing lots and lots of synth to create a mood of utter solitude. Edge of Sanity, a Dan Swano project, started as straight up death metal and ended with two 40+ minute progressive death metal epics wich are both more progressive than plenty of stuff on this site. Emperor, one of the most pivotal bands in black metal started as raw black metal and evolved into a symphonic extreme metal band with more synth than I thought possible. That route culminated recently with Ihsahn (Emperor's frontman) solo album, The Adversary, which is 100% progressive metal. Diabolical Masquerade, the solo project of Katatonia guitarist Blakkheim. They started as raw black metal and their last album, Death's Design, is one of the most interesting and unique albums I've ever heard. Nile, also. They have started straight up death metal, with some 10 minute epics thrown in, but their main guitarist, Karl Sanders, made a highly original, possibly prog album called Saurian Meditation which is all relaxing Egyptian sounding music.

Maybe it is metal artists becoming bored of a primitive sound. I know Darkthrone never changed though, so that's not right. Metal has simply changed drastically from what it was, and I probably wouldn't have loved it in the 80s. Now? There is some quality stuff. That's why you see so much about prog metal.

And with that, I challenge you old school prog heads to open your minds a bit to accept the new wave of metal as the prog it is. Metal will keep evolving. Every year a new highly original metal album comes out. Scratch that, MANY original albums come out. That's why there is so much talk of metal in relation to prog. Because metal is right now, the only genre that is evolving constantly in a progressive way. Meet the future.
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Points: 6699 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 13:25
I think that this issue is a difficult one to address.  On the one hand, the majority of bands featured here are unadultered prog, but on the other hand, there are clearly some additions to all genres that I understand that I would not consider progressive.  It's not just metal that is becoming added here when it probably shouldn't, but there are also Art Rock and other genres which contain bands that I personally would not support being here.
 
I don't think that prog is becoming metal, but that the database is including metal bands that are closely related to prog to give the listener a more comprehensive database regarding prog. 
 
Any great research database has all of the information that can be gathered on the main topic, but it also has other topics that have a direct and important relation to the main topic. 

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