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Spydrfish 
Forum Newbie
Joined: November 05 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 35
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 Topic: Grendel is not Apocalypse in 9/8
Posted: May 03 2008 at 14:49 |
 Green and Funky wrote:
I was saying the GRENDEL section is in 8/8, not 9/8.
Apocalypse is quite obviously in 9/8. Therefore, they DON'T
have the same rhythm, only the notes from the bass line are the
same. And Marillion does not get 99% of their ideas from
Genesis, that's ridiculous and you should be ashamed of
yourself for making such a blatant hyperbole. I'm tired of
hearing all this sh*t about how Marillion are ripoffs of Genesis.
Genesis were a big influence on Marillion. Yes. But who cares?
Marillion made good music, so why does it matter? When
almost every band was selling out to record companies,
Marillion kept prog alive in the 80's. Would it have been better if
Marillion didn't exist in the 80's and all music was just pop sh*t?
Marilion kept the prog flame alive.
Genesis was a great band and Marillion was good too. We can
leave it at that. |
Green and Funky wrote:
I like both bands. I like Genesis a good bit more. I have no trouble
accepting that Marillion is not much more than a Genesis cover band.
There's no reason to be disappointed by this as long as the music's
good. Besides, who wouldn't be in a Genesis coverband? The only thing
cooler than that would be playing in a Yes cover band.
Starcastle and Druid. |
Fish was a huge fan of Genesis, though of course it was simply influence as opposed to "Cloning" as you said. Though this is the only incident where they directly copied from another song. NO Grendel in itself is not like suppers ready, only the last section of the song even down to the keyboard solo over it. It isn't the most uncommon thing for a band to make a riff similar to a classic prog song, Such as Sieges even's "Dimensions" featuring a riff similar to Rush's "Xanadu" though in a different signature. Yes I do like the song itself, but there is no need to justify that. And cover bands aren't really my thing, cause I could take that for lack of inspiration to make one's own music. though often cover bands have moved on to become true ones...sorry for that being off topic.
Edited by Spydrfish - May 03 2008 at 15:18
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yesman1972
Forum Groupie
Joined: March 25 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 79
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Posted: May 02 2008 at 13:37 |
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I like both bands. I like Genesis a good bit more. I have no trouble
accepting that Marillion is not much more than a Genesis cover band.
There's no reason to be disappointed by this as long as the music's
good. Besides, who wouldn't be in a Genesis coverband? The only thing
cooler than that would be playing in a Yes cover band.
Starcastle and Druid.
Edited by yesman1972 - May 02 2008 at 13:37
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: April 28 2008 at 05:08 |
Snow Dog wrote:
So we're markng out of 8 now are we? I'll give it 5/8 then! |
that's a nice one.
speaking about nice ones, where is Snowy I miss him.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: April 27 2008 at 22:57 |
No, but the whole song is amateurish and hackneyed.  Still like it, though.
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kenmartree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 14 2007
Location: oregon
Status: Offline
Points: 356
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Posted: April 27 2008 at 22:55 |
el böthy wrote:
Wow, Genesis sure are popular! Even the dullest thread that has slightly anything to do with them gets 4 pages... mmm... I guess Im not helping prevent that either |
But it was started in 2005!, Yes they are popular and lots of people can't stand that. Misplaced flawless, I might of said so in '85. I still love it maybe I've just played it too much. From what I've read opinion is split between MC and CAS, and script is ProgJester's fav album. 
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el böthy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336
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Posted: April 27 2008 at 22:23 |
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Wow, Genesis sure are popular! Even the dullest thread that has slightly anything to do with them gets 4 pages... mmm... I guess Im not helping prevent that either
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 19438
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Posted: April 27 2008 at 18:46 |
salmacis wrote:
I have to say I've never heard anything by Marillion that I would say sounded like a clone of a Genesis song. I must say it took me a little while longer to get into Marillion than some of the other neo-prog bands, but I found that was because in all honesty, Marillion were more original than IQ or Pendragon were. Sure, there are elements in Marillion's sound that are akin to Genesis, but there are also traces of Pink Floyd and VDGG in there too, yet neither are explicit enough to be labelled 'soundalike'. |
Isn't Script pretty much what got the Marils the Genesis "clone" label? Sure, they developed their own sound, as all bands do, but I wouldn't say they were necessarily any more original than IQ. In the early '80s, I'd say Twelfth Night was more original than IQ, Marillion, Pendragon and Pallas.
salmacis wrote:
In fact, 'Misplaced Childhood', alongside Camel's 'Nude', is one of the only 80s prog albums I would label a totally flawless album. |
Misplaced totally flawless? Isn't that a little bit of a stretch? More people seem to prefer Clutching, which I myself also like far better. Best one Marillion ever put out, IM/H/O.
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Cifrocco
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 15 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 19
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Posted: April 26 2008 at 18:51 |
Artist's and their music are an acquired taste, especially in the progressive rock world. I fell in love with Marillion in '83 and they single-handedly made me a prog-head. Because of them I discovered all the original prog rock groups. Yes, I believe the latter part of Grendel is almost a direct copy of Genesis' Apocalypse 9/8, be that as it may Grendel is one amazingly epic masterpiece, with plenty of its own delicious moments. Also, Fish's lyrics have no equal before or after him.
If borrowing musical fragments or ideas makes the inspiree less of a musician or artist, then what excuse is there for Pink Floyd's Comfortably Numb (album: The Wall 1979) which seems to borrow heavily from Peter Hammill's Lost and Found (from album: Over 1977)? And that's just one example, of course. It makes Pink Floyd no less original or "awesome".
We tend to reserve the highest praise for the pioneers, but those that came after build upon the foundations and expand on them. We should be thankful, especially since as time goes on it becomes more difficult to be truly original and unique.
I can't wait to see Fish again this summer (June 2008) he's touring North America, I have tickets for shows in three different cities! Woohoo!
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Guests
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Posted: November 07 2005 at 00:23 |
salmacis wrote:
I have to say I've never heard anything by Marillion
that I would say sounded like a clone of a Genesis song. I must say it took
me a little while longer to get into Marillion than some of the other neo-
prog bands, but I found that was because in all honesty, Marillion were
more original than IQ or Pendragon were. Sure, there are elements in
Marillion's sound that are akin to Genesis, but there are also traces of
Pink Floyd and VDGG in there too, yet neither are explicit enough to be
labelled 'soundalike'.
In fact, 'Misplaced Childhood', alongside Camel's 'Nude', is one of the
only 80s prog albums I would label a totally flawless album. |
Good points. The overall sound is derivative in some ways, but Marillion
are not a Genesis tribute band by any means, nor do any songs have a
similar sounding Genesis counterpart.
I see a great deal of Andy Latimer in Steve Rothery's guitar playing, far
more than I see Genesis in Marillion.
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salmacis
Forum Senior Member
Content Addition
Joined: April 10 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3928
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Posted: November 05 2005 at 16:40 |
I have to say I've never heard anything by Marillion that I would say sounded like a clone of a Genesis song. I must say it took me a little while longer to get into Marillion than some of the other neo-prog bands, but I found that was because in all honesty, Marillion were more original than IQ or Pendragon were. Sure, there are elements in Marillion's sound that are akin to Genesis, but there are also traces of Pink Floyd and VDGG in there too, yet neither are explicit enough to be labelled 'soundalike'.
In fact, 'Misplaced Childhood', alongside Camel's 'Nude', is one of the only 80s prog albums I would label a totally flawless album.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: November 05 2005 at 16:11 |
Biggles wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
Pablosnerudas wrote:
Nonsense. This is going back to the silly "Marillion sound like Genesis" argument, which is merely regurgitating the music press at the time - there is no truth in it. |
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Marillion DEFINITELY sounds like Genesis. Trust me on this one.
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No they DEFINITELY don't. Trust me on this one.
Does "Fugazi" sound like "The Musical Box"?
Nope.
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Prosciutto
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 23 2005
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 123
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Posted: November 04 2005 at 15:39 |
In the beginning Marillion were influenced by Genesis: Fish wearing make up, that riff on Grendel was a naive rip off from Apocalypse in 9/8. The Genesis influence is also noticeable but in some minor way on Script for a Jester Tear, there're also influences by Camel (Steve Rothery on Chelsea Monday and Forgotten Sons sounds like Andy Latimer).
Some years later we can hear "Steve Hackett" on Warm Wet Circles but I think Steve Rothery wanted to pay some tribute this time.
Nobody can deny those influences on the early days of Marillion, fortunately soon they found their own sound.
Edited by Prosciutto
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Don't be a prog-hole, please...
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11985
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Posted: November 04 2005 at 14:12 |
Biggles wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
Pablosnerudas wrote:
Nonsense. This is going back to the silly "Marillion sound like Genesis" argument, which is merely regurgitating the music press at the time - there is no truth in it. |
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Marillion DEFINITELY sounds like Genesis. Trust me on this one.
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Give examples or your statement is pointless,and our trust in you would be misguided....
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Biggles
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 705
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Posted: November 04 2005 at 13:20 |
Certif1ed wrote:
Pablosnerudas wrote:
Nonsense. This is going back to the silly "Marillion sound like Genesis" argument, which is merely regurgitating the music press at the time - there is no truth in it. |
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Marillion DEFINITELY sounds like Genesis. Trust me on this one.
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The crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: November 04 2005 at 13:04 |
Pablosnerudas wrote:
Yes, Apocalypse in 9/8 is in 9/8
Yes, Marillion's Grendel was derived from the above
No - only the backing riff to the section under discussion.
- but in 4/4 because there is no way that Fish has ever been able to sing anything in a slightly odd time signature.
That's not the reason, that's a hypothesis. Fish sings around the heavily accented 4/4 rhythm freely, which discounts this "Fish-bashing" entirely.
Yes, Marillion were initially heavily influenced by older, 70's prog bands (as were Pallas and Twelfth Night)
No, Twelfth Night were not. And the influence is clearly not heavy on Marillion's very first album.
But no, they did not keep prog alive during the 80's - they did as much for 80's prog as Rush did with Grace Under Pressure (God, that album still churns my stomach). Marillion just kept reminding us what we missed because Collins got out from behind that drum kit!!
Nonsense. This is going back to the silly "Marillion sound like Genesis" argument, which is merely regurgitating the music press at the time - there is no truth in it.
Does "Chealsea Monday" sound like "The Battle of Epping Forest"?
Of course not!
Just as Spock's Beard reminded us in the 90's of what Yes could have been doing if only they hadn't let Trevor Horn near them.
Ummm.... there's something bad in this? Yes are overrated anyway.
Crimson, on the other hand, produced seminal works during the 80's that embraced modern sounds and technologies and yet still kept their musical inaccessible to the Cheltenham Average.
Oh, so that's what this is about? Marillion (and much of Neo Prog) were accessible, thus derisory and worthy of any smear that made them sound less than the creators of fine and original souding music that they originally were?
It all becomes clear!
King Crimson were inconsistent during the 1980s and got stuck in ruts. Some of it was superlative, some of it was dross.
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Pablosnerudas
Forum Newbie
Joined: November 04 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1
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Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:29 |
Yes, Apocalypse in 9/8 is in 9/8
Yes, Marillion's Grendel was derived from the above - but in 4/4 because there is no way that Fish has ever been able to sing anything in a slightly odd time signature.
Yes, Marillion were initially heavily influenced by older, 70's prog bands (as were Pallas and Twelfth Night)
But no, they did not keep prog alive during the 80's - they did as much for 80's prog as Rush did with Grace Under Pressure (God, that album still churns my stomach). Marillion just kept reminding us what we missed because Collins got out from behind that drum kit!! Just as Spock's Beard reminded us in the 90's of what Yes could have been doing if only they hadn't let Trevor Horn near them.
Crimson, on the other hand, produced seminal works during the 80's that embraced modern sounds and technologies and yet still kept their musical inaccessible to the Cheltenham Average.
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I don't think I ever did glid before ...
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21817
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Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:13 |
Yes, apparently I did ... sorry!  Of course you were right all along.
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10266
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Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:09 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ isn't it the other way round? a 1/8 note in a largo should be about as long as a 1/4 note in an allegro, assuming that the allegro is about twice as fast (in terms of bpm) as the largo. 
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That's what I said; did you misread my post?
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Lindsay Lohan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 3254
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Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:08 |
Oh you musical guys and your musical terms  I tried to learn that stuff once but i thought it was friggin boring and unnecessary i found
Edited by maidenrulez
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21817
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Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:07 |
Incidentally: I bought an Ivanhoe CD this week - greak stuff. One of the songs features alternating 15/16 and 14/16 (equals 7/8). I was a little surprised at first that a band like Ivanhoe would use that complex a signature, but it's true.
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Grendel is not Apocalypse in 9/8
