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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18718 |
![]() Posted: November 03 2011 at 15:41 |
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I doubt that you will find someone that can discuss "improvisation" as much as I can, specially in film and theater. I have had the chance to also do this with musicians, more than once and spent a considerable amount of time with Gong as well -- and it might surprise you to know that the "beat poets" were some of the best improvisational artists ever!
The idea, is from the card game, and a bit of a joke ... you throw all the cards in the air and then you pick them up ... and David even said on his "Behind the Music" that you took the lines as they came and did not change anything. And it has a tendency to bring with it, some interesting cross ideas that you did not imagine that came up because of the chance of the order of the cards and the words that were in it.
This can be done with music, provided that it is not a "guided improvisation" ... which means that you have a chord you don't touch, as that is the signal for the rest of the band to join in, or switch folks ... and this was something that was very well known and used by Miles Davis a lot ... we start, I do this, then John does his thing, then Tom does that, then I join in and then we finish ... which has freedom in between the "transition points" of the piece of music.
However, that's like saying that you can not do an improvisation that has no "transition points", which the Krautrock folks did extremely well, probably in response to the English "composed" style of improvisation ... where the ideas are set down ... and indeed, a lot of the Krautrock was defined/designed to not use any ideas that were from the Western definitions of music, and to see if something new could be created ... which it did ... even if so many folks do not accept it, or felt that the drugs were more interesting, or whatever.
Moonchild, is "open". That it might have a beginning or an end point is not quite as important to the piece as the "moment" itself, and that is the part that separates the listener from the musician ... because the listener is making assumptions that do NOT, necessarily, have anything to do with what the musician is doing at all.
Remember, also, that at the time, there were a lot of experimental theater and film and other arts, and to say, or think that none of it ever affected music is facile and quite uneducated over all, not always in a bad way, mind you! Specially when it could be done as a satire as Frank Zappa did! But you get the drift.
A lot of it, in improvisation, has more to do with the artist himself/herself and how much confidence you can draw from your own visual/internal process. What you and I say, is ALWAYS after the fact and not always valid.
I spent all my directing years having fun on the stage with actors to create new things and ideas and processes, and no two rehearsals were ever the same to ensure freshness and continuity ... and guess what a lot of music, specially these days, is missing ... too much on one chord or note or sound. And ideas are ideas and they are all worth while playing with ... if you are not afraid and have the confidence to have fun with what you know ... which is where most people don't! ... the same in this board with its "set ways" as to what "progressive" means, when its very definition is taking away from the very creation of it all ... it's like saying that sex is about getting off and has nothing else behind it ... and you know that's not always true at all!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18718 |
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Wow ... this is nice ... but it's a bit way too literary and classical minded for this board. Folks here are into hits and lyrics that excite and bring your vision to the "tarado" point (a la Brazil!) ... and you suggesting that this is more than that ... ohhh my gawwwwddddd ... there are people here that do not believe that all this music is just pop music and has no value in musical history at all!
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The problem is that many times we are "assuming" that it is composed. What if it isn't?
The "melodic/atonal" idea is interesting and it happens to be the single most visible thing when folks are talking about "progressive" music, when all of it has to be "composed" and not a free form exercise, and then, it has to adhere to melodic definitions of music, in an era and century where the main drive was to break down the tonalities so that we could see if there was something out there ... that unffortunately became immediately distorted to be just another melodic sound and instrument ... ie ... synthesizer!
Let's say that Robert does these by the pound in many other albums of his.
Although I would not exactly call it "minimalist" or "avantgardist" or any other term, mostly because we do not know what Robert sees ... we're making an assumption that what he sees is the same thing that "we're supposed to see" ... and I can tell you that is a falacy of the biggest and highest proportions of all!
Hard to get that aross to the top ten world, because they feel the artist is their slave and can not do anything that they can not understand or "know", even if done by lyrics. And this is one of the "bad" (not always, btw) things about the top ten ... people expect the "answers", and not to have to figure them out themselves, which a piece like "Moonchild" is going to cause you to do.
The same thing happens here when everyone plays follow the leader and they don't even read what was said or written, and instead begin troll posting of the subject and responses.
So hearing someone not liking it, or struggling to find a "meaning" is not surprising when the person has always been bottle-fed by Hollywood and top ten commercialism. Of course that is not to say that others have not done similar, which many have!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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refugee ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() VIP Member Joined: November 20 2006 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 7026 |
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I don’t know what this has to do with Burroughs, but here’s what I associate with 52 pickup:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/52_Pickup I don’t really see how this can be applied to music either. |
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
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desistindo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 02 2010 Status: Offline Points: 4321 |
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Sorry, but i didnt get the process you talking about, whats ``52 pickup``? Are you suggesting improvisation to create art?
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The Dark Elf ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13397 |
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If you enjoy the errant ramblings of Phillip Glass minimalism, then you'll enjoy the ten minutes of tinkling cymbals, soft guitar arpeggios and ambient mellotron drone. At the time of its release, a hit or two of acid would have been a nice chaser as you listen to the aimless noodling.
But proclaiming the last incoherent section of Moonchild as some sort of masterpiece is rather like being a sycophant in the court of the emperor with his new clothes. Reminding the emperor that he is butt-naked will not gain one points among the fawning elite.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18718 |
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I have found, from writing and studying my own process, that the best way to learn how to write and be creative is when you do ... the very thing that Bowie, Byrne, Eno and those folks used to talk about ... the very Burroughs idea of "52 pickup" ... and then see what you have ...and go from there.
It's not easy to do with music, but musicians are the "most afraid" to try different things, because it is very hard to adjust and get back to the chord/note that is the force behind it all ... but folks in "kruatrock" and other experimental folks, showed that it was a falacy for us to think that we could not get back ... Djam Karet is the perfect example in the first 5 albums! In fact, what you learn is that ... one has absolutely nothing to do with the other ... but we have an issue here ...
Convention, and my sister is very much of a well known painter in Europe with many international exhibits of her art, is the issue ... for her, art is a VERY mental process that is slightly beyond definition and the only value in it is when you have something at the end of 30 hours of work on it (let's say ... !!!) and she does not trust the immediate and inspired improvisational side of the art. She can enjoy a Keith Jarrett, or listen to some jazz, but for her that is some music that is "composed" ... and she can not reconcile that music with the free form side of it at all!
I think that we have the same view of music here ... and thus, getting an understanding of "Moonchild" is a difficult thing ... lest I tell you the famous novel called "Moonchild" that was about corrupting the girl ... which might just be the real comment behind it all ... the soft, innocent, quiet, interesting beauty ... of a child in the middle of a meadow ... eventually corrupted ... and what's worse ... we, as the social animals that are not sensitive enough to understand and do something about that ... to the point where we don't like the very peace and innocence and beauty that it is trying to show us ... softly ...quietly ... as a child sleeps and rests ...
Sorry ... it's still a masterpiece in my book. And if all people can do is look for a meaning, may I suggest they go study the big book a little more, because in the end, the truth is right in front of you, or as the man once said ... the father and I are one ... but we don't know the difference or what that means! Worse of all ... we don't want to know!
"Far worse things ... await man ... than death!" Edited by moshkito - November 01 2011 at 20:33 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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sideburndude... ![]() Forum Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: October 13 2011 Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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I find the abstract middle section very enjoyable for the first 5 minutes of it until you realize it is really not going anywhere. Other ambient or abstract songs of the same genre like "The Waiting Room" by Genesis, are great becuase they build into something and the tension created by the passage is resolved in a climax. But Moonchild just ends with apparently no meaning or direction. Perhaps that is the beauty people see in the song but that is why Moonchild does not appeal to me.
Edited by sideburndude... - November 01 2011 at 20:33 |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18718 |
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Too bad that your definition for prog and the music came about 20 years after the music was made!
And of course, today's audience, can't handle a little fun and improvisation and experimentation! Even if it was meaningless!
Gawd ... we need another Frank Zappa so bad right now!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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desistindo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 02 2010 Status: Offline Points: 4321 |
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I think you might misinterpreted me: im not trying to get to a sort of "ideological" notion of this track (if yes, i would play it backwards ![]() |
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AtomicCrimsonRush ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 02 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14258 |
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^^^ Like that. I played Moonchild and at first my wife was like "Geez that is pretty" and then it changed to "Is this the same song?" and finally "What are they trying to achieve here?" It really is quite baffling to the average listener.
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Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5160 |
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It's one of the many sections in the music I listen to which, if when playing my girlfriend Katia happens to pass by, she will sneak her head in and shout at me "how the hell can you like THIS?! something in your brains must be definitely wrong!".
There are many of those, not just because of being too "experimental noise" but can be other reasons too, some too heavy, or too crazy, or too loud or whatever. Katia's shouts have made me much more self-aware of this, now even when I'm alone at home or in my car, when listening to some sections I just think to myself "if Katia would see me right now she would shout one of her "how the hell can you like THIS?!"".
And yet, I rarely skip them, I guess "like them" is maybe not the right expression but I listen to them anyway and they make part of the whole.
Edited by Gerinski - November 01 2011 at 04:37 |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18718 |
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Thank you ... it's a conversation with spirit! ... if we keep it cryptic enough we can get rid of many of these neo-prog'rs and neo-progressive folks!
Hehehehe !!!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18718 |
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You know what's hard about something like this?
It's like telling people that parts of Beethoven's 9th are a waste, or parts of this and that are also a waste. In the end, we are trying to state that the artist has no right to paint a Mona Lisa or a sculpto do a Venus de Milo, because you and I will sit here and try to figure it all out ...
Give it up ... stop asking questions, and let the "child" live. Sooner or later, the piece of music will have "character" and grow up, and you will see something else that you did not see before ... but nooooooo ... we have to say that it is nothing and music'less!
The real issue is that the board is taking up a very classical attitude towards the music (with its definition) but they don't believe in the music itself ... because the music is not the art ... the idea is ... how academic is that?
Rarely, is improvisation done for improvisation's sakes ... that is way too hard to do and "direction-less" for music, and most music exercise is much more focus'ed than otherwise ... either on a chord, a note, a sound, a lyric, or something else. But to say that it is meaningless ... I seriously doubt that ANY ONE OF US ever plays music or does any art ... because we don't give a sh*t and it doesn't mean anything ... to us or to someone else.
The main issue is that we think that "it has to have a meaning", which some lyrics are supposed to kiss our as$ with!, and by saying that, you are not allowing that "vision" to have a life of its own ... because you are denying its ability to exist. The fact of the matter is ... IT EXISTS, and we can listen to it. So get over it. The child has a scratch in his bum, and a wart in his nose? ... so what? .... it's not ugly ... that's life!
![]() ![]() ![]() It's like asking people from this board to sit and listen to the Portsmouth Sinfonia ... it will never happen because there is not enough heart and appreciation for the spirit from folks that sometimes we think don't have any ... and yet, they do! ... and we're not progressive enough as people adn thinkers to even have a heart and appreciate the progressiveness and incredible effort to get something like that done ... but forget it ... go play/listen to your 4/4 prog! Edited by moshkito - October 31 2011 at 21:10 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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manofmystery ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 26 2008 Location: PA, USA Status: Offline Points: 4335 |
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The power of Moonchild is in the first 2:20 after that it's someone very softly moving a cymbal. Perhaps they are moving it over to Brian Eno's place where he can use it to collect dust on one of his dreadful ambient albums. I believe ambient is by definition the sound of instruments collecting dust.
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![]() Time always wins. |
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paganinio ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 07 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1327 |
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OP have you heard any avant-garde jazz or just pure intense stuff. Actually if you like King Crimson's Starless (who doesn't) you should know the power of Moonchild since they run in the same vein. The power of letting loose of your mind and just fly. Fly on your wings.
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manofmystery ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 26 2008 Location: PA, USA Status: Offline Points: 4335 |
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If you listen to the entirety of "Moonchild" everytime you put ITCOTCK on then you will be spending a lot of your life, that could be spent listening to music, listening to dead air. Enjoy the first 2:20 and skip the last 10 minutes.
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![]() Time always wins. |
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The Miracle ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: May 29 2005 Location: hell Status: Offline Points: 28427 |
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^Great post Eetu, I agree with your take on it.
![]() Basically I think Moonchild is a valid but failed experiment. It probably wasn't meant as filler, but comes off that way. Of all the new exciting things (for the time) that they tried on that album, it's not surprising that not everything worked. I never skip it, out of respect. It's actually pretty trippy and enjoyable when I'm in the mood. |
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Eetu Pellonpaa ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 17 2005 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 4828 |
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Hi, if you wish, please accept some thoughts from me to this half-remarkable question:
Cert1fied's interpretation is indeed wonderful, and in my opinion shows also the strength of Peter Sinfield's ability to write poetry, which can be understood from many symbolistic perspectives, or just be enjoyed as beautiful romantic lyricsm. When the music and lyrics unite in this manner, and the listener is capable of finding associations and reasons from more abstract characteristics, I detect the really fine potential of art being realized. I do not personally like the instrumental movement very much, which is also from my observation categorically cut from all official KC compillations with Moonchild.I agree however that it is phase interesting as experimentation, and contrasts the other songs of the album, however not for me very succesfully. I'm also happy to learn here there are listeners who like it, and can argument their opinions most profoundly. I believe having some appetite for minimal and atonal improvisations, but what I find in this piece troublesome is firstly the mood where the listener is entered to it; Melodic and finely detailed composed part works as introduction for the sequence, and though in theoretical level the concept could be seen interesting, this debated main part seems like a disappointing conclusion for the composed part. This I think is a factor caused by the second point; That this discussed improvisational section is not in my humble opinion very focused to creation of coherent end result, but emphazised the "avantgardistic" dialogue of guitar and perscussions without valid responsibility of end result. On more concrete level; Fripp is in many parts doing quite beautiful mantras, but the neurotic short spasms from the rhythm section and which the guitar answers feel annoying to myself. About the improvisation quality, as the band was so new, it is possible this reflects to the succesfulness of the open tune. Beginnings often hold much power in spirit, but also much weakness in self-criticism and some uncoherence due search of desired ways. For example the similar abstract sequences in Wetton-Cross era recordings worked much better, as the soundscapes had clear psyhcological qualities, which I feel these tender little testings lack. The mentioned other quiet improvs Peter Sinfield told are ofcourse interesting too, material which you may have listened from "Epitaph" CD's or other available 1969 live recordings, offering glimpses to these live sessions with poor audio quality. Quite interesting moments, but the musical incoherence is in my opinion often there present also, a characterstic which does not need to dull the shining of these early recordings however. I also thought about the original question, the considertations "why I don't get this part of the record", indicates how coronized the album is in value terms, as if would be impossible that there could be simply poor moments on it.
I consider judging "good" and "bad" in arts are mostly personal opinions, and the meaning of these insights have merits mostly in sociological groups where some artifacts, like this record, hold a sacred status. I like some moments on this "holy album", and agree it's historical value in heavy & symphonic prog, but my own interests are drawn currently to slighlty different music, and I think the "progressive rock" innovations which I personally am mostly interested were created earlier in the psychedelic musical fields; These sounds do not relate so much to heavy or symphonic prog sound what I belive this record manifests. Many also seem to feel the following record was a no good carbon copy of the first album, but for me it is more fine tuned version of the same idea, and much more rewarding album as a listening experience, even though it lacks the sphere of progressive rock pioneering blessing this album.
Thank you, it was good to listen again what felt unpleasant 15 years ago.
![]() Sounded bit different, but didn't change totally the opinion however. Here's a mutilated version where the dreamy wandering is omited from the composed part, enrichened with lovely children book illustrations (escapes, good night...... ![]() |
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refugee ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() VIP Member Joined: November 20 2006 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 7026 |
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In a way you’re right because they never return to the initial melody. Still there’s a very distinct change towards the end, from the free tonal part (which probably is the most difficult to enjoy) to the tonal/pentatonic coda, so it’s not altogether wrong to say that Moonchild has a "middle part". |
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
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Slartibartfast ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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Edited by Slartibartfast - October 30 2011 at 09:50 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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