Round 1 Rome Bracket: Dream Theater v. Caravan
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Polls
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=100560
Printed Date: July 03 2025 at 09:19
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Topic: Round 1 Rome Bracket: Dream Theater v. Caravan
Posted By: micky
Subject: Round 1 Rome Bracket: Dream Theater v. Caravan
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:08
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hahah. God I love the D&D dice on this one. From the Prog Metal Conference we have one of the most important and influential of modern prog groups From the ..ahem... U.S. DREAM THEATER!!! From the Canterbury Confererence we have its greatest and most beloved group. From England CARAVAN!! Vegas oddmakers.. having listened to those two samples and hearing the differences between tastefully done music and egregious assaults on the senses have installed Caravan as a 25 vote favorite. Can DT pull the upset? Only if we go back in time to 2007 when this site was overrun with acne scarred kids genuflecting everytime DT was mentioned on this forum  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Replies:
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:09
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I like DT but I like Caravan more... ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:11
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Caravan all day every day, Christ Caravan can't lose this one can they? My bands have been taking a bath in this tournament so far. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:15
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Not the biggest fan of either but Caravan gets this. ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:17
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Caravan. ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:18
Wow, maybe it'll be like Germany-Brazil in WC 2014.   ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:22
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I like a lot of Canterbury bands more than Caravan and am quite sympathetic to DT. Yet, for LaBrie's sake, this is such a slam dunk for Caravan!
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:22
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This is just hilarious. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:23
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Shut out! Shut out! -------------  Time always wins. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:32
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Oh yes, Dream Theater all the way.... NOT!!!!! ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:33
YES!!! SHUT OUT SHUT OUT SHUT OUT!!! First acknowledged voter for DT gets my 'special' attention for the .. however many years before the next battle of the bands. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
manofmystery wrote:Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:34
Caravan. Where's the DT army?  |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:34
I don't think you have to worry about this one ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:35
buried in the old symphonic team's back yards. Even the PA peacekeepers couldn't save them ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:36
This  . I haven't walked out of many concerts in my lifetime, but I did the first time I saw DT on stage. It felt like being bludgeoned on the head for half an hour. Caravan, on the other hand, are one of my favourite bands (at least until For Girls Who Grow Plump in the Night). |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:42
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 09:53
Only time I've been to a DT concert was when I went to see the support act, The Crimson Projekct. I stayed for two of DT's tracks and then walked out. NOT ... FOR ... ME. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Friday13th
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 10:06
DT! Seems all their fans left with Portnoy. 
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Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 10:19
While the luster of Dream Theater has dulled over the years, I still prefer them over Caravan. There is always the chance for that to change someday . . . but today is not that day. Dream Theater all the way. Besides, Dream Theater has a history of beating people up unexpectedly.
------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 10:35
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I'd vote for Celine Dionne before DT. Sorry guys, but I can't stand them. ------------- 
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 10:39
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These days I listen to more Caravan than Dream Theater. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 11:41
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I voted against them in a previous poll, but this round must go to the clear leader, Caravan. I can get into DT sometimes, and have seen them live, but they represent everything that can go wrong with Prog. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 11:54
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I like Metal but this is no contest, Caravan al the way. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: bloodnarfer
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 12:02
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voted for Caravan lol. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ramza1316" rel="nofollow - www.last.fm/user/ramza1316 https://open.spotify.com/user/1211221845" rel="nofollow - https://open.spotify.com/user/1211221845 |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 12:02
Definitely Caravan.  ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 12:09
WTF is happening????? I quit life.  ------------- Want to play mafia? Visit http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com" rel="nofollow - here . |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 12:19
So do I. ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 12:25
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This place is truly unrecognizable these days . When we first joined, over 9 years ago, the forum was positively teeming with rabid DT fans. I wonder where they are now... |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 12:25
There are more Caravan fans out there than you may think. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 12:30
Swept away by the shifting sands of time. We're now facing the aftermath of a Canterbury haboob, I guess... -------------
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 12:43
I know what you mean Raff. I've even tested the waters with a couple of comments and nothing. It used to be even if you said DT was anything less than the best band ever all the fanboys would come out of the woodwork looking for blood. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 12:50
Yes, this has taken away a lot of the fun we used to have when bashing DT  ... |
Posted By: AEProgman
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 13:01
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^ A geezer for the Caravan ------------- 
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Posted By: Wanorak
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 13:48
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Believe it or not, DT for me as I have probably listened to more DT in the last few years! I rarely listen to Caravan anymore. ------------- A GREAT YEAR FOR PROG!!! |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 14:07
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Caravan. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 14:12
| Has to be Caravan. For Girls Who Grow Plump In The Night is a very closely held favourite of mine, while ol' DT are quite decent... though of course that's not good enough to stand against any other runner in this whole competition. |
Posted By: Michael678
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 14:34
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i'm actually going with Dream Theater on this one. however, i only know Panic Attack, Pull Me Under, and On the Backs of Angels very well. did listen to their two latest albums, which were alright, but they may need more listens like ALOT of other albums out there.
------------- Progrockdude |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 15:00
count yourself lucky then you weren't married to red haired hellion who LOVED Celine Dion. I'd poke my eyes out and listen to DT before I ever laid eyes on a willing red head or a CD of Dion's ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 16:01
This... DT's rabid fans left for either MMA or the DT fan sites....not much to discuss though based on the last couple albums DT released, they are boring save for a couple songs. -------------   
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 16:06
hah. So much for the notion of DT being a gateway band into the larger world of prog huh.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 16:54
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Not to disappoint you Micky, my vote went for DT. I like Caravan, but definitely prefer DT. ------------- 
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 17:17
Fight the power Scott!! ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 17:30
you've been 'made' by the PA mafia, so you get a free pass on that one. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 18:09
They are a gateway for so many bands of the late 90's and 00's and 10's...Will they continue to be a gateway, probably. But the influence has been set well before the past 2-3 albums. -------------
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 18:32
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Caravan ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 19:56
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I listened to a Dream Theater album a few times (Scenes From a Memory) and I can't deny I was entertained, so I don't want to jump on the bashing bandwagon. But Caravan is much, much, much better. I vote accordingly. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: December 07 2014 at 23:52
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Caravan ------------- |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 03:07
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DT hasn't grabbed me except for "Pull Me Under" and "A Change Of Seasons" Caravan on the other hand is one of my top favorite bands. I love Grey And Pink, For Girls Who Grow Plump, Caravan And The New Symphonia, Cunning Stunts and Blind Dog At St. Dunstans especially.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 04:23
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I like some DT, Awake and the Octavarium piece fx, but they're still no match for Caravan't first 5 albums. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 05:06
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Easiest poll ever. ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: Imperial Zeppelin
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 05:55
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Can't get into either of them. ------------- "Hey there, Dog Man, now I drink from your bowl." |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 08:56
If you remember Raff..I told you DT was a bluff. This kind of bands get a lot of easy fans (There are also faithful intelligent DT fans who really appreciate the music and virtuosity, but are the less) in a blink of an eye, but they lose them as soon as a new viking band with a lot of distorted guitars appear. I remember when the DT virus spread all over, the album Octavarium had an almost perfect 5 stars average from people who hadn't even heard it (They heard a LaBrie solo album), they said it was the future of Prog, and the best thing since the invention of bread. I also told you when the first page of the forum was almost exclusively full of DT threads (I counted 21 threads once), that 99% of the people who called them the best band of history would vanish...Time gave me the reason. Still the people come to talk about Genesis, Yes and King Crimson, but DT has almost vanished -------------
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 10:00
Me too.
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Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 10:47
| Caravan always |
Posted By: digdug
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 11:16
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DT is pretty good but I like Caravan a lot more ------------- Prog On! |
Posted By: The Bearded Bard
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 12:21
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I like both, but have to go with DT. Not that it helps though. -------------  
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 12:40
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I am quite shocked that this is such a blowout. I am led to wonder how many of the votes are as much a vote against DT as they are for Caravan. Caravan had so little impact in the USA. I'm pretty certain I have never heard them mentioned anywhere outside of PA. Their box set Canterbury Tales was my gateway to this band. I had read about them back in the day, but their music was not available in local stores until this box set came about. -------------
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 13:03
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^I think the big problem is that most of the serious Prog Metal fans; people like Jared, DTguitarfan, Avestin, TricksterF, Brian, Tristan, Jody, Mike etc, either don't post much or are long gone laving a forum of retro fans and a small group of avant-heads. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 13:19
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This is true. -------------
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 13:33
what has their impact on MickyMouse Land got to do with things? ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 13:46
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No vote. Haven't been compelled to listen to either band in a long time, really. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 13:51
-------------
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 13:59
It was a friendly dig at your seemingly US Centric post. Please take the Royals off our hands! But are you not the Land Of MickyMouse? Rather than GreyandPink? ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 14:14
My post is US Centric, because I am US Centric, but moreso probably just Michigan-centric since that is all that I can really speak for. And from my point of view, Dream Theater have had a bigger impact than Caravan. And people may complain about DT's last two or three albums, but when is the last time Caravan released anything worthwhile? 1976? I can't speak for their 2014 release because they have failed to release it in the US.-------------
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 14:25
McDs maybees? I guess being a prog site we're not going to vote based on the most recent output of such and such band. And as we don't all come from Michegan we might not all vote in the same Michegan educated manner. Having said that the gap does surprise me but, then previous posts seem to address that - purely for my own point of view I wouldn't vote against another band even if it was 1 Direction. I am still waiting for the 1D v VDGG match up. ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 14:38
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Ah Yes. One Direction...another thing that we have to thank the UK for. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate that on a Prog site there are going to be a number of people that like a band like Caravan and prefer them over a band like DT, who are those damn Americans who b*****dized the prog genre by adding it to metal. It has been my experience within PA that there seems to be more people who hate DT than there are those who love Caravan, which is the reason behind my comment on the votes against DT vs votes for Caravan. I also have no interest in disparaging Caravan or people who like them and prefer them over DT. I like them well enough myself. It is more an observation that it seems odd that a smaller, lesser known act from the 70's would be so completely destroying a behemoth band from the 90's. -------------
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 14:44
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I suppose that in the wider world Dream Theatre might be a much bigger deal than Caravan. But I suspect in our own little subsect , Caravan are concidered much more important. I do understand you quizing other's motives for voting Canterbury but, I don't think that would explain the huge gap in voting. ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 15:22
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Caravan are a significant if lesser known band in the development of progressive rock in the 70's. My personal view is that there are few DT fanboys here than previously. That and DT being crap. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 15:56
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Like a good amount of DT, dislike some of DT. Like what I've heard by Caravan a decent amount, but I don't think I've heard enough to vote. ------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 16:39
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Just for the record, Caravan headlined this year's edition of ROSfest (Gettysburg, PA), and a lot of people came expressly to see them. They have a lot of fans among the older generation, and also quite a few younger prog fans dig them. Moreover, the next installment of the Romantic Warriors documentary series (whose makers are good friends of ours) will be entirely dedicated to the Canterbury scene. Quite a few US bands have been influenced by Caravan and the Canterbury sound - for instance, The Muffins and, in more modern times, Ut Gret. That is not to say that DT have not been enormously influential as well. Unfortunately, the fact is that a lot of people seem to grow out of them when they get acquainted with other styles of prog. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 16:39
-------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 16:42
I "dig them" as well, I just prefer metal related prog over jazz related prog. -------------
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Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 16:48
| Rome? Lima? Would you believe Poughkeepsie? |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 16:50
I believe that. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 17:35
I frequent a few other music related sites or audio gear sites that have music threads......all of them have a prog section and Caravan are well represented, you would be surprised. Granted it is easy to tell the age of these followers, the bigger issue is only a small percentage of them have listened to DT or have no desire for metal related music, to them it might as well be scream/death metal. This poll on those sites would be the same landslide victory for the Canterbury scene.... -------------
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Posted By: tboyd1802
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 19:45
What he said !-)
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Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 20:42
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to speak to what rushfan4 has been saying: As an American who has just turned 30 I absolutely love Caravan and recognize that prog was basically born in England and at least 90% of the legends of the genre are from merry old England. Also, I have absolutely no use for Dream Theater or any metal in my prog and view my country's contributions to prog, beyond Frank Zappa, Yezda Urfa, and Arabesque, as suspect at best. You neither have to be old nor English to feel that metal should be a disqualifying term instead of a subgenre. Also, it seems really odd to be using public popular opinion as an argument within a forum devoted to a genre that public popular opinion has largely cast into the shadows. Given what charts here in the US, though I hardly think it's limited to us, if a prog band were to pop up it would make me more suspicious of their credentials than anything else. I can't imagine a prog fan looking at pop music charts in the first place, though. ------------- Time always wins. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 21:59
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There was once a time when the pop music charts were relevant in relation to prog and Caravan wasn't on it. I listened to a lot of rock radio when I was younger. Caravan wasn't on it. DTs one hit made them nationwide. But from a PA standpoint all of their albums have over 1000 reviews and the lowest is rated at 3.32. Caravan have 8 studio albums rated below DTs worst rated album and only 1 album with 1000 votes. These stats tell me that DT should win this easily. The fanboy thing is most likely the reason for why the actual vote is so different. -------------
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Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: December 08 2014 at 22:23
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The statistics you provide just prove to show how depressingly deep the metal infestation is in prog. Although, maybe, just maybe, the fact that their representative in this poll is being pummeled gives some hope for a brighter tomorrow. ------------- Time always wins. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 01:23
| Ah, good to see this thread came alive. As for the missing fanboys, well, back when they were still there, Truth made a DT v/s Magma poll and called us trolls when Magma won the poll. One thing that hasn't changed is the difficulty they have in digesting the fact that some people don't worship the ground that DT treads, even when the other band is a very fine one like Caravan. I like early DT and patches of the rest of their albums (post Awake) but hey, is any reason other than Another Day required to dislike them? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 05:59
indeed. Nice to see a bit of fire. Well done Scott! Raff told me about this thread conflagration. This is worth dragging myself out of bed for Old days .. new days. One thing hasn't changed about PA's.. or prog fan. Prog Metal is has and likely always will be extremely divisive. DT is the obvious target of that for many people. For several reasons. One they suck Or in more detailed terms is they provide the best example of flash without substance and having multiple great talents who fail to be a real band. No one doubts the talent, or the desire to be 'prog'. However many doubt the final result was listenable. Why does Opeth not get the same level of hate. That is a band. DT was a mere collection of very talented instrumentalists.Two. They are without doubt the most important and influential. So obviously they have a big ol' KICK ME SIGN right on their backs for those who don't like prog metal. Three. O yes. The fans themselves. Yes their fans were a bit much and I do think some of the over the top 'hate' was blowback to them. DT albums being compared to classics from Yes or even Genesis. Come on. Anyhow. As I noted in my Symphony X review. One really could do a good essay on the relationship of prog fan with prog metal. Prog fan will take most anything showing the slightest leanings of progressiveness and claim it as their own, but for some reason for many Prog Metal has the cooties. There is a real answer in there that begs to be exposed. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 06:08
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DT are one of the most boring, 'self important' bands I have ever had the misfortune to see - I walked out well before the end and I wasn't the only one (High Voltage, London, 2011). But, to put them up against Caravan? No contest! Dear old Caravan every time. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 08:38
Well, prog, whether of the symphonic or avant variety, is nothing if not subtle and full of dynamics. Metal done well is about as subtle as a sledgehammer.
Not surprising that the blend of both is awkward a lot of times. PoS did it well but by pushing their metal side to the background. Nice review of Divine Wings...by the way. I like that album too. As you said, some crushing headbanging mania mixed with Dio-esque majestic vocals. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 10:33
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I don't think DT lack substance...from the point of view of complexity or ambition. What mars the overall experience, at least for me, is their questionable predilection for cheese and copious amounts thereof. One would think given how accomplished the musicians are and their professed fondness for many great classic rock and metal bands as well as some of the prog and fusion greats, they would get that right. Or maybe, if the way Jon Arch described his experience of auditioning for them is anything to go by, it is an intentional and canny choice to adhere to tastes that were then drifting towards the likes of Celine Dion, Mariah Carey, Mr Big, Bryan Adams, etc etc. With that said, even some of their classic rock covers like Hey You were a bit awkward and not only on account of LaBrie.
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Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 11:02
There is a lot to this. I think one of the biggest tragadies was the loss of Kevin Moore from the band. In my mind, 'Images and Words' and 'Awake' are both fantastic albums and truly believe it was Kevin Moore and to a lesser extent, John Myung that kept them grounded. When Jordan Rudess entered the band, it became exactly what you describe above, 'multiple great talents who fail to be a band'. It seems like for years, Petrucci, Rudess and Portnoy would go into any situation with the theory of 'how many notes can I play, can I play more than the other two guys'. Both Moore and Myung had the sense to know when to play a lot of notes and when to hold back and I think that the songwriting was more balanced at that point. When Moore left, Sherinian never really had a chance. Rudess was the second coming of John Petrucci. With those three writing, Myung was had less and less to say. Most of this is opinion and supposition of course, but (and I don't have the time to fact check this over lunch) if memory serves me, st's been quite a few albums since Myung got a writing credit whereas he had some on the Moore albums. In my mind, when Kevin Moore left, the band kind of lost their soul. There have been a few good songs here and there since then, I like Octovarium and Black Clouds, but nothing that they've done has matched the majesty of Images and Words and Awake in my mind. ------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 11:46
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 11:50
-------------
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Posted By: The Jester
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 13:07
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of course Caravan! ------------- If anybody wants please visit: http://www.gfreedomathina.blogspot.com/ This is my Blog mostly about Rock music, but also a few other things as well. You are most welcome! Thank you. :) |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 14:40
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Caravan might not be as obscure as you think. I found the remaster of "For Girls Who Grow Plump in the Night" at my favorite little music shop here in Ann Arbor. The guys working there took a look at my purchase and complimented my good taste. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 14:53
Similar story for me at my local vinyl and CD shop, found the same album remastered on CD. The guys didn't mention anything about it to me, but I got the Golden Fleece!
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 15:07
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I've yet to see anything but compilation albums for Caravan in any of the record stores that I've shopped at, and I've shopped in a number of them over the years. Next time I go to my regular place I'm gonna check and see if they might have anything on vinyl, but they definitely have no CDs. -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 15:42
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If we consider sales of albums in mainstream shops, we might as well scrap three quarters of the bands and artists included in the PA database. I don't believe you can find Discipline or Shadow Circus albums at your local FYE. A lot of people who dig DT are not fans of other prog genres, and this is one of the reasons why they have sold so many albums (regardless or whether they are good or not). |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 15:47
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I realize this, but again look at the two bands reviews here on PA. Caravan has one album with over 1,000 reviews. DT has many. DT has 5 albums with a 4.0 aggregate rating or better. Caravan has 1. Caravan has 5 albums with a ranking in the 2.0s; DT has none. These are all PA stats and have nothing to do with the general public. People complain about DT's last few albums, but almost all of Caravan's latest albums are ranked in the 2s. This is all that I am saying. On PA paper, DT should be wiping the floor with Caravan, not the other way around. As was previously agreed to earlier in this thread, it pretty much has to do with the DT fanboy brigade, and me apparently being the last holdover from those days. -------------
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 15:49
You gotta head over here to A2 Scott. A big college town has advantages in that regard. All sorts of people with different tastes. There are three used shops here that are like gold mines. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 15:57
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 18:29
Well, many of those who review or rate albums don't also vote on forum polls. So the popularity of the band on the database hasn't tracked the forum views for a long time. It wouldn't be so evident from reviews that the forum is such a KC/Genesis fanboy hub, for instance, as the ratings seem to follow the pattern of other websites. Possibly the DT fanboy syndrome is partly responsible but in the reverse direction. As in maybe some people who are only casually aware of DT may have still voted just to rile up the fanboys but I am sure everyone who voted for Caravan actually likes them. As others have pointed out, Caravan may not have been as popular as DT but they are certainly not obscure. Do you really think Guns N Roses would win a poll against Nick Drake on PA? I doubt it.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 18:45
has nothing to do with sales.. .and everything to do with apparently pulling up stakes and moving on from this site when their group imploded. Hense the answer to the question we all asked as to where are the DT fanboys. Listening to something, somewhere else, but DT sure didn't seem to turn most of them into prog fans. Not to say they should have been, or had to have been, but that does say something to me that it was the geek factor of that group (virtuosity), not the prog factor (musical) that seemed to be what people really liked out of the group which again sort of speaks to the point I made earlier. A collection of talent built for showcasing the talent rather than a group meant for showcasing the sum results of the talents. I do agree as most everyone does. When they lost Kevin Moore, they lost the one person capable of taking all that talent and making someone work from it.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 19:02
Thanks Roger. I hadn't reviewed an album in many many years and never was a particularly confident reviewer even then. When I read others reviews and how well they do those my own insecurity gets magnified, especially since my own wife's abilities to dissect albums is so much better than my own. Thanks though. I did enjoy writing it, and yes.. it is a great example of a well done prog metal album that appeals to metal fans and prog fans.. like me. Yes.. metal often lacks subtlety. So does prog. Some of the best prog albums I have heard are akin to being hit over the head by a 2X4 for 40 minutes.. or overdosing on vallium. Prog to me never has been about the so called intellectual quotient. It is nice when well done, but in most cases it is not. These are musicians, not scholars, not intellectuals. What prog can do when it is done best, better than any musical form, is appeal to the emotions and the senses. Metal as well can do that as well and I would say the best of metal is full of nuance and full of dynamics. That is one thing that appealed to me in the Symp X album, and more to the point that is one thing I have always love about Opeth. In particuar Akerfeldt's vocals and the way his uses his vocal styles and the way he shifts from cookie monster to his very engaging 'normal' singing voice. Anyhow. Metal can be a sledgehammer and I love it for that but do believe there is a lot of room in metal, and progressive metal for subtlety and nuance. DT never seemed to grasp that and seemed to me to be about showcasing the skills rather than making music that touches the listener. Thus the huge turn off from me. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: twalsh
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 19:20
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Shame about the DT haters, but it sounds like PA history plays a part in this. I like them a lot. Some albums I like almost all of the tracks while others I am really into only a few. Probably still the best metal band I have seen live and that was this past spring. The show was so tight and professional. How much do you have to like a band to be a 'fanboy?' It's not like DT can do no wrong. For me, lots of their material is good, though I prefer Train of Thought and earlier. One thing I've learned about music here - No matter how great a band purports to be, somebody here will hate them with a passion.
This is my first listen of Caravan. Worth hearing more of them, for sure. ------------- More heavy prog, please! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 09 2014 at 19:37
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oh yeah. A lot of PA history is wrapped up in this.. along with simply DETESTING the group Picking on the fanclub was like a sport around here. We actually had a competition for how many fanboys heads we each had mounted over the fireplace. It wasn't really challenging, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. So we decided the fun wasn't to be the kill itself, but thinking up creative ways to make the kills. We did have a lot of fun picking on them, and being the full of piss fanboys they were, they didn't see the humor. A big mistake which some of the characters here, which only ratcheted up the level of viritol we threw at them. It was all in fun, but when you bleed and live for your favorite group I suppose it is hard to see it that way. Live? We've walked out of both times we've seen them. Just couldn't take it, but we did try. Anyhow, variety is the spice of a forum. Yes EVERY group has its haters. Some here even fail to see the brilliance of ELP. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |