YES - Tales from Topographic Oceans
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=121526
Printed Date: July 19 2025 at 21:17
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Topic: YES - Tales from Topographic Oceans
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Subject: YES - Tales from Topographic Oceans
Date Posted: November 17 2019 at 11:34
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Well, that's another blog written, so it's time for me to Fly from Here and continue with The Quest of listening again to the entire discography of YES |
Replies:
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: November 17 2019 at 13:02
The story of the best yes album 
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 17 2019 at 13:40
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I noticed there's another blog with the same title as this one, but I couldn't come up with a better title.
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Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 13:11
| My favorite LP ever. |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 25 2019 at 13:46
It's on my long list of albums to go out and buy.
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miamiscot wrote:Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: November 26 2019 at 08:35
Life-changing...
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 26 2019 at 19:59
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While not my favorite I do feel it don't get no respect. But it is no disgrace. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: November 26 2019 at 21:16
| Tales gets a lot of respect among hardcore Yes fans and in prog circles imo. It's only the casual fans who don't get it. |
Posted By: Frankh
Date Posted: November 27 2019 at 00:15
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It was and still is too beautiful a work to be well understood by most listeners. ------------- Perhaps finding the happy medium is harder than we know. |
Posted By: MaldonTerryWood
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 10:08
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LPs had big covers and for me the artist was important too. Does anyone know what Roger Dean did in later life? |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 29 2019 at 12:19
He designed video game covers from the mid-1980's onwards and he also has a couple of art galleries in England and San Francisco. I expect he's retired by now at the age of 75.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 12:22
Four years on and I still haven't added it to my prog collection, so the disgrace is all mine.
 |
Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 12:38
Wisdom Man! ------------- I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat... |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 15:25
and it has 3x in price probably.....LOL -------------   
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 22:57
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Dawn of light lying between a silence, and sold sources. Chased amid fusions of wonder. In moments hardly seen forgotten. Colored in pastures of chance, dancing leaves cast spells of challenge. Amused but real in thought. We fled from the sea whole. Dawn of thought transferes through moments. Of days under searching earth. Revealing corridors of time provoking memories. Disjointed but with purpose. Craving penetrations offer links with the self instructors sharp,
And tender love as we took to the air. A picture of distance. Dawn of our power we amuse. Re-descending as fast as misused expression. As only to teach love as To reveal passion chasing late into corners, and we danced from the ocean. Dawn of love sent within us. Colors of awakening among the many. Won't to follow, only tunes of a different age. As the links span our endless caresses. For the freedom of life everlasting. Happy Anniversary! Released December 7, 1973: YES "Tales From Topographic Oceans". Their sixth studio album.
------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: December 08 2023 at 01:30
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Tales to me always seems like the muzak version of CTTE... a very pleasant listen all the same. ------------- "We're going to need a bigger swear jar." Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: December 09 2023 at 07:49
It worries me that I can recite this word for word but can't remember why I came upstairs.
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Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: December 09 2023 at 08:22
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^same! ------------- I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat... |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: December 09 2023 at 17:02
Likewise!! BTW, I corrected some spelling typos. Surprised this lot didn't call me on it! ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: December 09 2023 at 20:20
I remember listening to it all the time in a frigid apartment 20 years ago. It's my favorite album. You should get it.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: December 14 2023 at 11:57
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YES Documentary - The Story of Tales from Topographic Oceans |
Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: December 14 2023 at 12:00
Fantastic video, fantastic channel, I've seen that video a couple times, it's great ------------- I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat... |
Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: December 16 2023 at 18:57
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I bought it immediately upon its release in the U.S. (early 70s). I recall the music being dreamy or having that affect on your mind state or mood. At times the album felt drawn out....which was what Wakeman complained about or revealed it being somehow connected to his leaving YES . Which eventually he returned out of interest in the band returning to the style of songwriting originally on Fragile and Close To The Edge. Going For The One marked the essence of their early material but of course modernized. Although "Parallels" having that style the rest of the Going For The One album was not up to par with "South Side Of The Sky", "Heart Of The Sunrise ", "And You And I,..etc... Sometimes I thought that Topographic Oceans was just as important as the earlier material all within the power of its representation .. however it became a dinosaur in some people's eyes or a complete disappointment based on its lengthy compositions. Just as Wakeman did.. but I felt it was a important album . YES fans were able to escape reality through the music. It wasn't that much like a sing-a-long like Roundabout or I've Seen All Good People. The lyricism on Topographic Oceans was more like Gnostic hymns and not exactly sing-a-longs. As a result some people chose to experiment with hallucinogenic drugs while playing Topographic Oceans. Obviously the album affected our generation in a spiritual way. I enjoy Topographic Oceans looking out of the window during a snow blizzard. I like sitting by the fireplace listening to it. It has a place in my heart |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 16 2023 at 23:39
Hi, Thanks ... this hits home with me. I listen to all music for that and nothing else, and this is the reason why (sometimes) a lot of the lyrical content goes by wayside in my book, and a reason why something like Jethro Tull seemed to be not as strong, since "A Passion Play", or even "Minstrel in a Gallery" ... I believed the stories and lived them ... and all of a sudden, they weren't stories anymore ... they were pure literature for our minds and hearts and then ... they became just a song, it felt like. As I mentioned in another comment, I cried on the way out of the show, because not many of the fans were as enthused and appreciated TFTO as I did, and still do. They came for the hit songs, and were quiet and almost not appreciative of the work until after the intermission which separated TFTO from the rest. It's as if this was two different bands. I don't want to make diminishing comments about RW ... he's fine, but his ideas about music, are not "experimental" and "creatively open" to many things that are not exactly notes and chords and what I would consider work from another sphere of creativity. And, it would be even more weird, that RW would not appreciate the totality of the work, when at the time, the amount of experimental music all over the world was incredibly large and insane ... and we only have to take a peek at the ECM thread on this board ... and how much of it was around at the time ... for RW to only want to use and work with what I could consider "conventional musical ideas", which all of his work is ... there is, in my book not a lot to discuss about his work ... it sounds nice ... so do all the classical concerts out there in every college/university town! This reminds me, again, of that bit I got to see on the way out of the East Meets West in Chicago with Ravi and Yehudi ... a group of fat old ladies in full Restoration regalia and smells ... was leaving and one was saying ... "how can anyone call that improvisation music?" ... and this was in 1969 (I have to look again!!!) in my senior year. I always looked at the great ones, as folks that stood apart from the rest for a big reason. TFTO was such a piece, as was CTTE in all honesty ... and the strange side is that RW does not see the creative side of that time ... he only sees his conventional work as important ... something that in some ways I would consider ... just another professor in the music department.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: December 17 2023 at 07:13
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I get off the Yestrain after Bruford left - those first five albums are pure gold. Tales starts a slippery slope where the boys begin to position their heads firmly up their own arses - it's a suffocating listen. Anderson and Howe attempted to put six hours of words and music onto four LP sides. As always with the band, their talent and taste produce some lovely passages, but as a whole, it never seems to hit Yesheights - it's noisy; strangely produced; the drumming doesn't hold up; Wakeman sounds disinterested; the Yesmagic never comes to the fore. I've spent years and years with Tales and see it as past-their-prime Yes - more in common with Going for the One than Close to the Edge. Then again, the only post CTTE Yes LPs I really dig are Drama and Squire's FOOW.
------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: December 17 2023 at 07:23
It is a challenging listen I will admit. I think at this point, I agree with you. Then again I haven’t revisited this album in quite some time. I may be a little scared to.  ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: December 17 2023 at 10:58
Wow!! Interesting information |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 17 2023 at 11:41
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Side one is worth the price of the lp....and the artwork is nice.... I rarely listen to the other sides. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: pooch 2
Date Posted: December 22 2023 at 08:35
| I remember seeing the Tales of Topographic Oceans show, late 1973 or early 1974 can't remember exactly, and remember being blown away at the musicianship of all the members. I did not own the album yet, I'm not sure it was available yet, so this was all new music to me, and the smoke filled haze that surrounded and filled the venue, it was magical! I've had 2 copies of the vinyl since and it finds a regular listen in my rotation. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: December 22 2023 at 14:47
Welcome to PA! I missed the Tales tour because of the oil embargo (Yes couldn't take their huge trucks on the road from Chicago to Champaign, IL due to the threat of no fuel), and your recollection is excellent! I saw CTTE show without having heard the LP, imagine my surprise when they kept playing, and playing, and playing!! I went expecting to hear their cover of "America!" July 28, 1972 at Chicago's Arie Crown Theater. Amazing. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 03:45
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The Sky's the limit for Steve Howe in the style of John Williams playing Cantata No. 140. It's good to see Steve has kept his good looks after all these years. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 08:01
Hi, Interesting thought, however, this would also spell out that 50% of all classical music is "drawn out" in order to give the main themes a chance to be heard again. I imagine that in those days, without the benefit of the recording and us being able to hear things after the fact, a composer likely had to give a listener a good point in regards the totality of the piece. The bizarre, and totally stupid, and selfish as his curry, is RW complaining about the music being drawn out, as if rock music only existed for the riff and his solos. The ability to flow and improvise, is not something that RW appreciates, and yet, the biggest names in composition in the 20th century coming from rock music, include the best improvising players ... and we loved them. Keith, Vangelis, Ryuichi ... and they do not have to simply play a different keyboard, which people think makes RW special ... he's a very poor composer since he does not seem to understand that music has a side that simply flows through, and has less to do with RW's ideas about composition, than it does the "visual" side of music for those that live through the images that a lot of music creates. I can safely say, that RW's compositions do not allow for this "visual" content to develop because he immediately changes instruments and sounds on purpose ... this is composition for him ... not anything else! I just think he is in too much of a hurry to go get his next bite of curry ... and please ... leave the keyboards for someone that appreciates music, instead of just his own "work" ... he won't last long or be remembered long enough for his music. It's too much of just another rock song!
For me, this simply shows and states that in general, the majority of folks commenting are not "musicologists" and are simple rock'n'roll fans. These folks, as was the case at the concert I saw at the Long Beach Arena in 1972, are not music fans at all ... they are there for the hits! And as the joke goes, their attention span only goes to about 5 minutes ... so to speak, and that is not to say that they have no taste in music, as much as it is to say that having a slightly better understanding of the history of music, and how it has developed, would help one appreciate some more music, that was not rock song mandated and designed. RW, is not a composer, and his pieces are more of a bunch of rock song pieces stitched together to make it look like it is valuable, and then using a different keyboard to make it seem more important. If you UNPLUGGED all those keyboards, you would find a lot of repeated riffs ... which he colored with a different keyboard and sound. You know how much talent that takes? Just go to a music store and pick up 10 keyboards (cheap of course) and then do the same thing ... and all of a sudden RW is not that great or important. And it is bizarre that RW would complaint about the "drawn out" stuff, or at least the compositional level that Jon and Steve used for the most part, which Chris had no issue with whatsoever, and instead of complaining, he augmented the music beautifully. It just speaks for something that has less to do with the music, than it does someone's ego. I still think he had to make sure people thought his own work was better than TFTO, so people would buy it, and his "leaving" the band would be justified. I didn't bother. I think I got his first album on some used LP store for 50 cents. It was the right price for the music in it. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: July 03 2025 at 03:55
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YES - The Revealing Science of creating the perfect Topographic music video. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 03 2025 at 04:27
| I'm really repsonding to Pedro's nonsense about Rick Wakeman but this may be as far out as anything he has posted on here. If Rick doesn't join Yes then we would probably not even be discussing this album. All musicians and human beings have egos. So what? |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 03 2025 at 06:57
Hi, Having enjoyed a lot of music from around the world, I seriously doubt that RW deserves to be in the same hall as Vangelis, Ryuichi, Keith ... at all ... mainly I might even suggest for his disrespect for the music which might not be as good as his curry, or as pretty as his capes. There is a side to things that have to do with the music itself, and the ability to create it and make it work as a composition. If you take RW's work in a DAW, you can put different keyboards on a different staff, and then you can play them separately ... and before long, you will be bored ... as they are almost the same, just a different sound on a different synthesizer, and as I suggested, you can unplug Keith, Vangelis and Ryuichi all day and night, and you have some glorious music, unless you lack the ears to even hear Rachel Flowers play Keith on solo piano, or organ. Something that is hard for me not to believe that we lack the appreciation for REAL MUSIC, instead of some curry favor (flavor?) and cape color! I do not dislike his music, I just think it is not as great as FANS make it out to be ... which is not, by the way, a good indication of what is good and great, though the "numbers" for the last 75 years are trying hard to convince us of what is good and great. Music appreciation is not about RW ... but about the many others that did a lot of work, and stood out, and are not appreciated as much as someone's curry seems to be ... the lack of respect alone would have gotten me to leave the concert, and if it were not the fanatic fans, half the audience would have left ... actually it's a shame that PDQ Bach did not get this story in his repertoire ... instead of "... have you got any onions?..." you would have "... have you got any curry? ..." But PA has no appreciation for PDQ Bach, and (maybe) neither do you! Let me tell you that one of his concerts I saw, was so strong, that I was laughing so hard I had to go outside instead of getting sick ... and it never stopped. AND if that's not enough he only used LOCALS, and sometimes not even professional musicians ... let's see RW even try that ... a meatless and flavorless curry! It will never happen! BTW, one time, someone here posted that PDQ Bach was not real ... all I said was ... you obviously have never heard enough music or tried the Internet ... so you would find that he did exist and had a lot of music that is recorded and available ... but not for everyone's ears. Heck, Carl Stalling should be here on PA if it was about music at all ... and that would make RW probably fart as a comment ... which sadly, would go well along with Carl Stalling's work, were it that we would be missing a small portion for that specific cartoon. The song should be "... have you got any ears ... ?" ... it would make better sense! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: July 03 2025 at 11:19
I usually keep a large salt-shaker handy when I read Mosh's comments.
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Posted By: Rick1
Date Posted: July 04 2025 at 03:02
| Wakeman was integral to this album, despite the masses written about it and I think his contributions are brilliant - especially sides 1 and 2. The album got to the UK number 1 - how many prog acts could do that? Not many, Benny. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 04 2025 at 09:26
His comments remind me of what someone said when I was 17 when I attended a Yes convention. One of the guys there who had a table said something about Wakeman being all flash and that there was no true talent there. I might be paraphrasing somewhat maybe(this was over 35 years ago now) but that was pretty much what the guy said. He then said Moraz was the one with pure talent. I wasn't sure I bought it then and I don't buy it now. Wakeman plays a lot of notes but so what. So do a lot of prog keyboard players. Some people make it sound like Wakeman should change his name to Fakeman. |
Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: July 04 2025 at 09:30
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Regarding Rick Wakeman's decision to leave Yes his reactions easily could have been based on a sudden change to do things differently within the group...and composition made a quantum leap from the recent Close To The Edge to this new project that Jon Anderson wanted to set up their gear in the forest and you had Bill Bruford months weeks before thinking.." Well..after Close To The Edge...all I can see myself doing is son of Close To The Edge" ...and so he was already anticipating something even more drawn out and he joined King Crimson where improvisation revolved more around avant garde than the bleeding of Mellotron chords in Topographic Oceans. Which is what Wakeman stated..."I felt that Topographic was too much bleeding" He doesn't get into extensive detail and I imagine that he was having fun in YES playing complex signature lines and arrangements...for example Heart Of The Sunrise, Close To The Edge..are intricate...they have melody...they build up into spectacular excitable moments of ecstasy and suddenly Wakeman is being asked to come up with parts that will accompany arrangements of atmospheric pieces which bores Wakeman and he feels hopelessly screwed up with his role. He wants to return to what they were prior to the change in direction and do another album . Even when he did return to the fold Going For The One didn't quite grab the magic of Fragile and Close To The Edge..which was a time period of excitement because Wakeman had just joined and between the 5 of them they turned out some amazing music...just as they had accomplished on THE YES ALBUM.. Wakeman was introduced to that golden era of YES after he left Strawbs and began rehearsals. That kept him going with inspiration..but Topographic Oceans was a letdown to him and he wasn't the right musician for the job. He wasn't happy with his role...though some of his atmospheric soundscapes ..played on Mellotron..from the 4 sides of Topographic are beautiful...spiritual and very fitting to the music...just as several of his Synthesizer solos throughout the album are spectacular! He created some magnificent keyboard parts for Topographic Oceans...nevertheless he did...regardless of feeling letdown... |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 04 2025 at 10:09
 There are keyboard parts/runs on CTTE that are brilliant and as good or better than other prog rock players..imho....as far as TFTO I have never been a big fan other than side 1. And TFTO is not a reflection on Wakeman for me but the songs in general. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 04 2025 at 22:16
| ^ I actually think Moraz was the best and that's coming from a massive ELP fan but TFTO as you said was not brought down by Wakeman in any way. It's okay to like other things and I believe Six Wives is a total masterpiece which is why I was irate at Mosh's comments about it being a 50 cent album and only worthy of the bargain bucket end of prog even though he may have been meant a bit tongue in cheek. Yeah move on if you prefer other things. Personally I prefer BSS, Six Wives and Air Cut from that same year but hey ho ''different folks different strokes''. No harm no foul. Wakeman moves on but there may already have been some bad blood between him and Howe at this time (personality clash?!). It doesn't feel like a band album where everyone is on the same page to me personally and I don't like that. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 05 2025 at 23:58
Hi, At the time, I was already busy with IMPORTS, which was about all the foreign bands that we mention here on various lists from the time. I think my job at the time was cooking somewhere, for like $4.50, or something like that ... and my finances were limited ... and I couldn't help it ... choice between AD2, Can, Le Orme, Ange, Banco, PFM ... was a much better deal for me, so I never bought the RW stuff ... didn't have enough money for it. But when I saw it in the used bin, for that price, it came home ... and the album was not "new" for me, like the other stuff as imports, and Guy was already in the station and it played some of it, so I was familiar with it, and I wanted the stuff that I didn't have, or in this case we didn't have, in order to help Guy with his show better. But all in all, RW FOR ME, is not as valuable as many others that have done much more meaningful and far out work. As I mentioned, Vangelis, Ryuichi, Keith, rank further up for me, if I have to make a call on favorites. But RW is not a "visual" composer per se, like those three were, and as was the case with my days in theater and some film, I was on the side of the experimentalists, and had been since the days I discovered "surrealism", though it had a tendency to go to a level that was a bit on the ridiculous side at times. But the music those 3 created, and two of them have Oscars for it, was immense and special ... again, I constantly show folks how Keith was much more of a contemporary composer than a simple rock keyboard player, and all you have to do is listen to Rachel Flowers do TARKUS on a piano, or an organ by herself ... it was a magnificent Piano Concerto. I can't say that I have found or enjoyed RW's work to that level, and a piece of music named for this person or that person is idealistic at best ... similar to one truth in theater ... the audience on Thursday is different than the one on Friday, and different from the one on Saturday, and RW thinking that we are supposed to create an image of each of those women, was too much for me ... it is very rock'n'roll story oriented so to speak, without lyrics in this case ... but I could not exactly feel a whole lot in that album like ai did so many other things. It's a different world we came up in ... my dad had over 50 operas in the house, and I remember many of them, but I can't say I even remember any part of RW's work, other than the huge organ part in CTTE, which was more rock SHOW than it was music related. My music appreciation is about ALL MUSIC ... not just RW. And it includes a good 600 years of history and appreciation ... and when comparing things, I'm sorry ... RW doesn't exactly shine, but that is not to say he is not good ... but I tell you ... I wanna hear his work COMPLETELY UNPLUGGED ... and I bet it won't shine as much. You can unplug Ryuichi, Vangelis and Keith all day ... and their beauty is there and always will be! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Fercandio46
Date Posted: July 09 2025 at 00:09
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TFTO always stirs controversy, as a teenager I instantly liked both Fragile and CTTE... on the other hand TFTO took longer to digest, to understand... over time I ended up liking it, and for me (and I clarify that it is personal, and it may vary for each one) it is, along with Relayer, the last of the classic Yes where they were a group playing together with feeling and desire as if their life depended on it. Jon Anderson himself recognized that by the time they got together again in 1977 each one was in their own world, some with personal addictions, in an environment like Switzerland if I remember correctly, and obviously the conditions were not the same as in the early 70s. Going back to 1973... I also remember reading that Eddie Offord had problems with alcohol and accidentally lost the tapes with the good recordings, leaving some of poorer quality, which would explain the lack of clarity compared to the previous records. And getting into a purely musical analysis... I think it contains a lot of Yes' most experimental material of their career. It has stylistic points in common with their previous works, but also new, classical and oriental influences, the Hindu ragas and talas, both Anderson's personal search and Howe's, as well as the trio tandem of Squire, White and Wakeman. The four sides contain such a vast harmonic richness that multiple listens are needed to fully appreciate them all, and the number of ideas put into play exceeds any previous effort. Compositionally, it even seems to me to be a step forward compared to CTTE, since the bridges and connections between the parts of the long songs have a homogeneity that CTTE lacked, despite being as great an album as we all appreciate it to be. It requires an effort in listening, yes, like all artistic productions of the 1970s, cinema, literature, the viewer/listener participated in the work through their interpretation. That makes that era so rich and valuable, so different from our days, doesn't it? And regarding Rick Wakeman... I have mixed opinions, his entire discography leaves a lot to be desired, he's repeated himself to the point of nausea and has gotten lost countless times without even caring, and yet he's amazed me with his first two albums, because I think that's where The Six Wives of Henry Viii discovered gunpowder, when in Jane Seymour Bruford's drums join the organ I think it was something new. And the funk sensibility along with the romantic and Renaissance influences of Journey to the Center of the Earth I think are enough to earn him a well-deserved place, was Keith Emerson more versatile, touching from classical, rock and roll, jazz to more avant-garde terrain with his adaptations? We agree, but I think Rick Wakeman was honest in his search until No Earthly Connection, where, successfully or not, he tried changes with wind instruments and a certain medieval psychedelia, if I may use the term. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 09 2025 at 04:08
Hi, I think the part that bothers RW is when it mixes improvisation with "composition", in a music world that has a large tendency to think that "improvisation" is not music and should not be "here" so to speak. Again, it reminds me of the fat old ladies coming out of East Meets West in 1969 (Chicago with Menuhin and Shankar) and saying ... "how can all that improvisation be called music?" ... and folks like RW are saying the same thing without using words. His (RW's) compositions are better than the work he did with the band in TFTO ... is the idea, so he is able to sell his own work better and we think that a curry delivered during the performance is cool, instead of insulting ... and belongs in a PDQ Bach concert, not in a YES show! I lost a lot of respect ... right there ... because the music was not important ... his ego and stomach was. I have not bought anything of his since and have not missed any of his own work! Of course, there was a lot more TD, KS, RS and VP to get anyway ... so why bother with someone that thinks his curry is more important than the music in that moment?
I have been into the "arts" all my life, and I consider "progressive" to be a part of the arts at the time ... but this is something that a lot of folks here don't want to discuss, lest it show that they are not as well versed on film, theater, literature, or any other art! So what? ... I might remember and know some, but I am not the expert on all of it, and what bothers me is the thought that some "fans" couldn't careless for the art form at all ... as if film, theater, literature and anything else is not something that the "progressive" folks would know ... specially as their friends and roommates were into it all day long ... were they blind and not see any movies? Or catch a play here or there? Or find a film, that went visually, just like a book would ... a description for 20 plus pages in one long shot. An image, that does not "belong" in "progressive" ... and this is, one of my biggest fights here (if we can call it that!) on the ideas/thoughts of and about "krautrock" ... even when Werner Herzog shot some Amon Duul 2 and Wim Wenders did some other music folks. Or my favorite image ... is there a difference between Damo Suzuki and Klaus Kinski? Folks like Can ... but most of them have probably never seen a Werner Herzog film to understand what improvisation was about and how those two folks defined a whole generation of it. I often think, possibly incorrectly, that the appreciation for the arts is the soul that is missing on PA, at times, when the next favorite this or that thread is done yet one more time! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Fercandio46
Date Posted: July 09 2025 at 11:21
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Keith Jarrett and Hermeto Pascoal, among others, have taught us that you can even improvise not only in jazz, but even in classical music! There's only one art, right? And it can't be fully encompassed, in an encyclopedic endeavor... but we can try to remain as open as possible, challenging human nature itself, which tends toward the opposite as the years go by. |
Posted By: Proggle
Date Posted: July 10 2025 at 07:07
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I came to it very recently (I’m a latecomer to 70s prog and never heard Yes in their own era). A friend and I have a deal that we alternate choosing an album each month that we then both have to listen to 5 times and discuss. He chose Tales.. recently. So I came to it without history, and liked it quite a bit. I read one review that thought sides 1 and 4 were the strong sides with 2 and 3 weaker and maybe containing some filler. My reaction has been almost the opposite - I like 1 and 4 just fine but have been drawn to 2 and 3. I enjoy the pastoral feel of 2 in between the more active bookends, and the way the contrasts work (and how they interact with the lyrics). I like the overall sense that the album is inviting me to reflect. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 10 2025 at 08:04
Hi, There is a physics axiom that applies here ... that we all love to forget, and think it is just hodgepodge meaningless words. QUALITY IS INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL TO QUANTITY And we had a huge wake up moment in the Advanced Acting class when it started. We came in Monday, and given an assignment due Wednesday at 1PM in the lab portion ... what we all did not know was that if you didn't make it through, you are not going to be a member of the Advanced Acting Class at all! AND, it wasn't a simple nothing ... it was more than 100 lines long and you were supposed to deliver it, and I think the point was ... you come to this class READY, or you are done, which is, we could say, how the business works for all actors ... you can't be a goof off ... you have to have at lest one or two strong redeeming abilities, and one of the best is the ability to learn and memorize quickly. So here goes ... how to study for that long thing, and "make the class! We have an option! 1. Quiet place, no radio, no people, no interruptions. You will probably have it all down in three or four hours, and now you can work on the thoughts that the words bring to mind for you to act on. You will be ready on Wednesday, maybe the wording is not acted out right, but you have all the words down, and that's VERY valuable and important. 2. Noisy place, roommates, radio or tv on ... brother and sister being noisy outside ... and you try to memorize that thing ... You will NOT make it to the Wednesday deadline, you might get past 2/3 rds or 3/4ths of the whole thing but there is no continuity and quality that is going to save your effort. Now transpose this to listening to music. Which is more efficient for picking up all kinds of details and bits and pieces of the music? The one with the better attention. And you find/learn quickly that this is one of the great points in meditation and teaching yourself about concentration. I have never, had to listen to something several times, and I think that it came from my younger days, when dad first got a record player for his classical music and (eventually) some 200+ operas from Italy to Russia, to heaven knows where! I didn't need to hear Renata Tebaldi and Birgit Nilsson duking it out in Turandot, to know that this was special and far out, and I can still hear it in my head 60 years later! You didn't need to even see Fantasia, to know that the Sorcerer's Apprentice was a silly kid story basically telling you to not do something you shouldn't ... like you know at 6 or 7 or 8 ... such BS! And then you hear Ravel's Bolero ... far out ... and then you get your brain scrambled ... and hear The Rite of the Spring or the Firebird Suite done by Bernstein. All it takes is one listen, and you are done for ... you don't need 3 or 4 listens. In fact, extra listens will only make things worse and more confusing as different parts grab your attention! Now, the one thing in rock music that makes things tougher is the problem that opera has had for hundreds of years ... that we think the music is what the lyrics tells you, and the simple fact is ... that the idea is so illusory as to confuse you more than help you. However, that is not to say that there are no works out there where things fit really well and some composers are better than others in those moments. Thus, when listening to rock music and some of its folks, 50 years ago it was easy to listen to Ian and his stories. But when it came to "meaning" of what was being done, that's another story. You and I can say that Ohio (Neil Young) was powerful and you don't need to hear it twice. You didn't need to hear It's a Beautiful Day sing White Bird again. You didn't need to hear Grace sing about the White Rabbit. And you didn't need to hear Jim say when the music is over turn out the lights ... you did it automatically for him ... and you knew right there and then, that is the power of poetry and words, and not everyone has that gift. Now we can go to Jon Anderson. The ideas and concepts of TFTO are very adventurous, and for a rock fan, more than likely a problem ... the lyrics are not easy, and for you to be able to follow this set of lyrics and on to the next step, you have to step back and think ... and that is hard on a listener ... it's always best if one can flow with it, but if Jon had done that I think that one member would have left sooner so he could go have his curry! Sitting down and reading the lyrics to TFTO is also not exactly fun, and I wish that Jon had a better definition for it all, but I have a feeling that so much of it was improvised so fast that there was no chance to go back and clean up some parts of it, which many would suggest that Sides 2 and 3 really needed it ... though I don't think so, but a bit more clarity with the lyrics helping the music out, would have made it easier to live through for many riff minded rock fans. Instead, folks trash half of the whole thing and think it is all too much filler, and they will immediately say that it is no wonder that a curry was ordered! And how cool that was ... not realizing that it would fit well in a PDQ Bach composition, but not in a serious piece like TFTO ... so that made room for a lot of fans to trash the whole thing. One last thing ... you can sit here and read mystic books, and none of them will speak to you in a way that you can relate to and understand ... some of that might be the translations, and the ideas based on very different cultures, but in general, the understanding is always a problem ... and folks think of the doors in one book guarded by a dragon as actually real problems that you do not have a good chance to get past! You just don't realize right then and there, that what is stopping you is your own lack of clarity and courage, and instead being afraid of taking that next step. Rock fans, in general, you and I could say they don't care what anything is about, as long as the lyrics tells them ... which is exactly the opposite of what literature has been about for many years, and while it was not exactly meant to be "hidden", sometimes it ended up being marked up as different and difficult because it did not make it clear ... let's not even go to biblical texts that have the worst translations and images ever created, by making it all come off like a child's story ... and you and I too stupid to ask questions! Now that you are even more confused ... let's see if you figured out the physics axiom and how it can apply to listening. You depth of perception and ability is the issue ... and how much of it do you want to apply? The rest is not hard to decipher at all ... but how awake are you? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 11 2025 at 07:25
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Hi, Side Note: Someone mentioned that you need a couple of extra listens for some things. For example, a couple of KC things with Bill Bruford, was not exactly clean with his little touches and tickles everywhere during its playing ... you can barely hear, and I doubt that you can pick it up unless you are looking for it. A lot of music does that on purpose, as if the little bits added have a way to make things slightly different and folks might wonder about it ... in the end, it doesn't matter, and all it is, is a sort of mind exercise as to how much can you handle in one listen ... and for many of us saying that we need X number of listens for this or that, this becomes a problem ... so you didn't hear that cowbell in the first listen ... wake up ... you were not exactly paying attention to it ALL, only the parts that you were comfortable and familiar with ... thus the cowbell, very low in the background, got missed until your 2nd or 3rd listen. This example, can be heard in Rachel Flowers' version of the same song ... you GET all the tickles and touches with it, and you can tell that her ear is excellent and picks up a lot more than we do! In some ways, it helps define Bill Bruford a bit more, as something that most of us could not exactly appreciate, specially these days, with drummers that are so bad and poor, and believed to be stars and all they can do is count ... not play at all! They can paradiddle their noodle all day long, but never know how to use it properly on a piece of music, except to show off ... look I got it in between your jumps! Normally, the drumming is not the hardest to find these things, as a few years ago, it did not have 23 microphones all over the place ... it might have had 4 or 5 instead, so missing some little details was likely to happen, but that's not the same thing as saying they weren't there and no one heard them ... we know and can finally verify it, that they were there, but too low and far away from the nearest microphone to be heard. Or Bill just wanted to have fun with something to get the Fripp ... away from his onw woke state on his own machines. A tough thing to do, that would likely get him mad, but it would be fun to watch for many of us! He laughs a lot more these days, than he did before. Listening, is also an "art", and you have to undergo some serious meditation work, before you wake up to that, and learn even more about it. Having the better microphones and tools make it easier to know what's on the tools about the music, but it does not help with the more important side of it ... the side that "creates that touch", which is the part that we have a hard time with, since we can not exactly justify a lot of it. And yet, it is there! And both you and I know it is there for a reason if we can define it, which might not as easy as that. Now, you know how/why KC makes sense with 3 drummers, specially when Pat is stuck doing the little tickles and touches that we did not notice or pay attention to before, in the middle of the drumming. And while Gavin was ice in making sure the touches fit correctly, he still had some misses ... not bad misses, but close enough to a miss, let's say, but that's likely to happen with someone that is to metronomic in his work ... which for KC's thoughts and ideas, was a good thing, because it allowed all the others to do their thing, knowing that a beat was not going to be missed while that was being done, and you can enjoy and appreciate the other 2 folks with Gavin in KC's tours. Very nicely worked, and rehearsed, and you know those 3 guys made sure they could get it as right as possible and they understood. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |