What Was The First Prog Album
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Top 10s and lists
Forum Description: List all your favourites here
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122613
Printed Date: June 20 2025 at 15:38
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: What Was The First Prog Album
Posted By: A Bard
Subject: What Was The First Prog Album
Date Posted: March 30 2020 at 12:07
| What was the first Album that is prog and not proto-prog. Is their an album that invented the basic of Prog rock or was it a slow evolution and the wasn't a clear jump from Proto prog to prog. So what is the first real prog album |
Replies:
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: March 30 2020 at 12:17
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69508 |
Posted By: A Bard
Date Posted: March 30 2020 at 12:38
| thanks |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 03 2020 at 09:42
| That post is from ten years ago. People are allowed to mention it again. If newer members want to discuss it they can't because older posts tend to be closed and therefore no one can reply to them. |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: April 03 2020 at 10:05
|
Sigh...interesting question...has been answered before... |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: April 03 2020 at 10:38
I agree, unless something has changed in the definition of prog......the albums are the same. -------------   
|
earlyprog wrote:Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: April 03 2020 at 10:43
| Mine probably was Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. Still a great album to listen to! |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: April 03 2020 at 10:44
|
If it was good for 30 pages 10 years ago we can surely have a bit of a chat now. In The Court Of The Crimson King is the first fully formed prog album IMHO, lots of elements came before on some very good albums but this is ground zero. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 03 2020 at 11:01
Caravan, Soft Machine, The Nice, The Moody Blues, Pink Floyd and Frank Zappa(or his representatives at least)are on their way to your house and want to have a word with you.   I agree KC had the first "official"(or the one that first gave the scene a lot of attention) prog album but it's certainly debatable if there was any "true" prog before it or not. For example on this site you will see many albums(and bands) that predate "court" that aren't considered proto prog.
|
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 03 2020 at 11:03
|
It’s basically a tie between In The Court Of The Crimson King and Hot Rats - both albums released on the same day, 10th of October 1969. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 03 2020 at 11:38
|
^ weirdly that also happened with The Nice - Ars Longa Vita Brevis and Procol Harum - Shine On Brightly , and both albums had side long pieces. I'm not really sure why Ars Long Vita Brevis is less prog than ELP- Tarkus? No one doubts that Tarkus is prog? Interestingly The Nice were put into 'Symphonic' here so there is a question as to whether they should even be considered to be 'Proto Prog' . From 1968 Keith Emerson and Procol were already embracing progressive ideas but perhaps without the 'finish' and professionalism that was to follow a year later. In The Court was massively important though. It not only raised the benchmark but also made it clear that 'all bets were off'. After Rolling Stone famously did a 360 about turn in their opinion of the album , prog rock was here and sticking around!
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 03 2020 at 11:48
|
It depends on how you define Prog, or how loose your parameters are. I tend to look to 1967 with albums such as Procol Harum's self-titled (actually, I'd sooner call 1968's Shine On Brightly Prog), or Moody Blues' Days of Future Passed, The Nice' Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack. Stuff like Hansson & Karlsson' Monument could be descrobed as prog, or Proto-Prog. I tend to put some 60s psych into the Prog umbrella such as 50 Foot Hose's Cauldron from 1967. And then there's Seventh Sons' Raga which is jammy, and was released in 1968, but is said to be from 1964. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: April 03 2020 at 13:21
|
Posted By: emisan
Date Posted: May 08 2020 at 19:19
|
Yes - Talk & Pink Floyd - The Division Bell. About 20 years ago. |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: May 21 2025 at 10:08
|
I just read through the entire 30 pages of the 2010 thread with this title and found it very informative (despite the tangents several personal conflicts took us on). I was too young, ignorant, and uneducated to participate in that discussion, but as AFlowerKingCrimson said, I see no harm in allowing/promoting newer members' take on the topic--there's always learning to experience. In case anyone has an interest in a longer version of an answer to the question, I've tried to summarize the 2010 discussion into a concise list of the albums offered at that time on this post on my blog, Prog Is Alive and Well in the 21st Century. https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/4177889769726575312/5361840915960305000 ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: May 21 2025 at 11:34
|
It's akin to the good old debate about which was the first Rock & Roll record. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_rock_and_roll#Views_on_the_first_rock_and_roll_record" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_rock_and_roll#Views_on_the_first_rock_and_roll_record All musical styles evolve out as what has gone before - with rock & roll it was primarily the blues, swing, jazz, rockabilly, etc, and prog as we all know evolved out of the psychedelia of the 60's, adding in a good dollop of blues, folk & jazz. The answer either both question is probably down to your own viewpoint. ------------- "Christ, where would rock & roll be without feedback?" - D. Gimour |
Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: May 21 2025 at 11:37
|
ITCOTCK was probably the first prog album of note as if ushering a new genre. ------------- "Christ, where would rock & roll be without feedback?" - D. Gimour |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: May 21 2025 at 13:36
|
https://youtu.be/dNYk1fTVeVQ?si=wf8L9dXof-RNGnBn" rel="nofollow - Moondog https://youtu.be/E86phiV8w2M?si=vQzXCw_oMk4u-Kkc" rel="nofollow - Do your thing ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/maxwells-submarine |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 21 2025 at 14:05
|
It was a gradual evolution of course, but Prog as we understand it now ~ high musicianship, full use of organ & keyboards, classical and jazz incorporation, long compositions ~ for me it would have to be the Nice, Davjack in 1967 and ALVB in '68. Zappa, Floyd, and the Beach Boys come close, but no cigar. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 21 2025 at 16:00
|
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 21 2025 at 17:17
| Which is the first one listed in PA? |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: May 21 2025 at 17:52
|
Foxtrot is #2, not getting a result for #1 ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 21 2025 at 18:13
| Do you mean Foxtrot by Genesis? That is 1972, right? I wonder what is the earliest Prog album listed on PA. That should be the one. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: May 21 2025 at 19:20
|
Well technically the first one listed is Miles Davis - First Miles in 1945 but we can discount that as Miles is here for his fusion albums and they start much later. The first appearance of something not jazz is Frank Zappa - Freak Out in 1966. 1967 is the first year with multiple entries Pink Floyd - Piper At The Gates Of Dawn The Moody Blues - Days Of Future Passed Procol Haram - A Whiter Shade Of Pale Traffic - Mr Fantasy I'm discounting entries with very few ratings ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 21 2025 at 21:59
| Right! I see the problem. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 22 2025 at 02:35
see the release dates above... and below... Sgt Pepper >> rel May 26 Disraeli Gears >> rel Nov 10 R U Exp >> rel May 12 The Doors (for The End) >> rel Jan 4 Forever Changes >> rel Nov 1 Surrealistic Pillow >> rel Feb 1 After Bathing at Baxter's >> Rel Nov 27 . ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 22 2025 at 02:43
Edit: didn't notice your reply and wrote basically the same as you
|
Posted By: Disconnect
Date Posted: May 22 2025 at 04:39
|
Edgard Varèse - Complete Works, Vol. 1 (released 1951) ------------- "My own response to King Crimson is one of quiet terror." - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 22 2025 at 05:40
| ^Can't recall that it actually rocks, but in that case it's the first ever rock-album too. Well done, Varèse! |
Posted By: Disconnect
Date Posted: May 22 2025 at 06:37
To be fair, the thread title is "What Was the First Prog Album", not "What Was the First Prog Rock Album". ------------- "My own response to King Crimson is one of quiet terror." - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 22 2025 at 07:42
Hi, I'm inclined to think that the idea/OP is not clear on that matter, and that the listener is not interested in music, but what others think! Maybe William J. Lederer was right! ... A Nation of Sheep? Heck, and that was 1961, right around the first mentions shown in this thread ... it says something about the time and place, that TODAY, we simply don't care about, or anymore! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Disconnect
Date Posted: May 22 2025 at 10:08
Not a fan of Varèse, eh Pedro?  I admit his works are extremely demanding listens. Still I am surprised more people here aren't fans of his work...or at least familiar with it. ------------- "My own response to King Crimson is one of quiet terror." - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 22 2025 at 12:01
Hi, I had more Varese LP's at home (dad had massive collection that ended up near 3K) and knew it some way before my first LP of "art rock" ... ELP's "Pictures at an Exhibition", though I was familiar with the hit song from their first album, but did not get it for at least a year ... I bought it after I got "Tarkus". You should be able to tell that music history is not an alien concept for me, like it is for most folks here! Like music is not an evolution, but has been about hits for 500 years ... interesting, and no radio or communicating devices in until some 100 years ago! Music travelled by scores, or someone's memory! It just speaks for the commercial mentality of the Internet that the record companies have been trying to instill into the masses ... and we continue supporting them, and trying to keep "progressive" afloat ... we're doomed to see it die, because we do not understand how they got to where they are accepted, or ever appreciated the anti-commercial invisible messages in the early days ... it was what made the American FM radio so huge in the 1970's before the Great American FM Radio Rape by the largest corporations in America ... heck, I think I heard that Texaco was the actual buyer/owner of the station when it was sold in 1980 or so ... just like all the others ... and the worst case that we allowed it to continue, when one conglomerate shut down KMET in LA and came up in the next morning as hew age mish mash stuff. Or better yet ... The Firesign Theater's sign of the double cross! And some think that SNL is funny. HAH! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: ThyroidGlands
Date Posted: May 22 2025 at 18:36
|
Surely many will disagree, but for me it's The Least We Can Do Is Wave to Each Other by Van der Graaf. Let's remember that it was recorded in the first weeks of December '69, just two months after the release of In the Court of the Crimson King (proto-prog for me) ------------- You don't know nothin' You don't know nothin' about You don't know nothin' You don't know nothin' at all |
Posted By: bardberic
Date Posted: May 22 2025 at 19:15
|
should we go back to India like 1500 years or so ago? some old Indian drone music I'd say is pretty progressive, even those were derived out of middle eastern stuff, which in turn was influenced by ancient Greek stuff If we're looking at like modern era, then I'd say Beethoven, with the creation of the Romanticism period of classical music really pushed music into a "progressive" realm, which Tchaikovsky would later exemplify with his long, linear flowing compositions. Perhaps if we want to look even more modern, then I guess Miles Davis? I'm not too educated on mid-20th century jazz, which is part of the foundation of prog rock. My vote is Beethoven, ultimately. |
Posted By: bardberic
Date Posted: May 22 2025 at 19:18
|
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 22 2025 at 21:05
Hi, I think that all music was "progressive" in one way or another, however, we don't have a way to find it, or hear it, and sometimes, all one finds is ... a song ... somewhere ... because what might have been part of something larger was not labelled or described, and was then, considered gibberish. I'm not sure that Romanticism created the "progressive" realm, and I tend to think that Mozart was the one that changed things to a "story" and then a more "personal" style with a lot of his music, operas and such. That had not been a part of the earlier music, from the baroque era (let's say) which was less about a story and what it meant, and more about the mechanics of the notes and chords involved. The only story, I like to say, was ... melody" as music was thought to be nothing but that. That's kind of like I see it, though I can't say I have thought it out clearly at all. I think Tchaikovsky and Beethoven changed the mechanics of things, by creating Symphonies and long pieces of music that were quite VISUAL, instead of them being a more simplistic thing as the earlier music had been before Mozart. I think that Mozart brought the huge change that some folks did not get ... which you can see in a funny way in the movie "AMADEUS" ... which I think was a really good study at the changes that took place at that time. For the 20th century, things change some ... now that things were being heard and recorded, we found a lot of new music, and specially, one thing that was not there before for everyone to hear ... POPULAR MUSIC ... and that ended up bringing the songs by the movie studios with THE JAZZ SINGER and eventually give a rise to knowing and realizing there was a lot of music out there, and the thing that picked up the most was jazz, and in the 1950's rock music also appeared, but jazz was already well represented, and Miles is not the only one, as we do not want to leave out Coltrane and many others. In my book, Stravinsky and Miles were the most important ones ... the Beatles, Rolling Stones and others, mainly brought out the possibility of commerciality, and they blew out the whole business model that the movie studios had invented. All of a sudden the old farts that were famous for their classical music were quickly pushed aside, specially after they said a lot of bad things about the new generation and their music. The example of that BBC bunch that didn't want longhairs that didn't know music to touch their equipment, which had been used by some of the greatest classical folks around. By the time "prog" and anything else got some attention, it was now a commercial thing, and the sad thing is that the American Corporate folks made a point of killing the FM radio stations that were independent that brought us so much new music ... to be replaced by "classics", which are still there today! To me, and progressive is important, the only sad thing I see is that it isn't about the music anymore, at least by so many copycopycopycopycopy things released and yet another metal band posted on PA, as if they were progressive, which mostly, in my ears, they aren't, and with musicians that are high school levels at best, from drummers to the formats! The inventiveness of the music was going to suffer, and this is where I try hard to not post much when someone thinks they have another guitar hero ... doing the same thing that 20/30/40 others have done before! Heck, I must be the only one that says that Portnoy is the worst drummer. He won't be a good drummer until the day that he takes his snare drums and used them as collars for decoration for his beard and then tries to drum ... without his clutch! Even Terry Bozzio did not do that ... and understood with Frank Zappa that just keeping time, was something that Frank used metronomes for, not musicians! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 23 2025 at 00:54
I disagree but surely you know of The Nice - Ars Longa Vita Brevis that came out in 1968? It's not a great album admittedly but then no one is making that distinction. I like the idea of ITCOTKC being 'proto- prog' though. A man after my own heart
|
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 23 2025 at 01:48
|
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: May 23 2025 at 05:56
| Most people would probably say In The Court of the Crimson King and I'm inclined to agree for the most part. At least it's the album that made prog official. There's also a good argument for Days of Future Passed by The Moody Blues which precedes "Court" by almost two years. Frank Zappa, Soft Machine, Family, The Nice, Procol Harum, Pink Floyd and others paved the way but for full blown prog I'd say King Crimson's debut is probably where it all began (at least officially). |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 23 2025 at 06:22
Hi, I'm not sure how I think/feel about it, but I do remember folks thinking (around me in Madison, WI a very big university town!!!! AND very cool!) that it was some art rock, but the thing that confused many folks, was that only two songs had a similar/same sound and the rest was experimental, at best ... it really gave the idea of ART ROCK a huge push, as it showed that some other experimental things could be done with music. I always thought that perhaps, The Moody Blues, The Nice, Procol Harum, Electric Prunes (for example) were really on the side of classical music, or at least doing something that made it more intelligent and classical, instead of bubble gum pop music, which is what radio (in America) was at that time, at the beginning of the rise of FM radio. PF, did not get as much attention until AFTER Syd Barrett, the story that really had folks going ... wow ... and the band having to change to something else, made it clear that a Syd Barrett mold was not possible to continue anyway, ripped or not, as Syd did not know chords or notes, and played by the sound and the feel he felt and heard (per Robert Wyatt!!!) ... which is not exactly sustainable in the long run in terms of continuing, at least in this very case! While I'm not sure that KC's album deserves the idea/thought that it was one of the first, I do think that the artistry in the music and the open-ness of the new FM radio in America made for things to be done, that were new ... and it helped bring us a lot of music, which made it tougher to decide which one was first ... I don't think there was a "first", per se, as the music had been changing and developing ... we don't even go around saying that Chuck Berry was the first either that helped make the guitar (and poor subject matter) and songs known on rock radio which was at that time the worst bubble gum and crap music, with nothing to say. All of a sudden, some folks changed that tune! And the next 5 or 6 years, completely blew out the AM Radio format in America for a while until the FM radio band thing died down when the independent stations were all bought by corporate America. I think there is too much that created a problem to DECIDE which album was first and some ideas think this is the one, and other ideas think that something else is the one! ... it's not as simple as that from our point of view some 50 (or more) years later! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 23 2025 at 17:31
|
Context. Perspective. Ignoring all the smarmy, pompous, incredibly prolix nonsense, we should read the OP's entire comment: "What was the first Album that is prog and not proto-prog. Is their an album that invented the basic of Prog rock or was it a slow evolution and the wasn't a clear jump from Proto prog to prog. So what is the first real prog album." So, given the full context of what the OP said, we are going to ignore "proto-prog", a genre of rock found generally in the 1960s, the precursor to albums that can be considered fully "progressive rock", and also shelve albums that were "progressive" but not rock (i.e., Varèse or Miles Davis). Therefore, sticking with rock, we are going to drop proto-prog albums like Days of Future Passed, S.F. Sorrow, Shine On Brightly, Sgt. Peppers, etc. I would suggest one of the following... The Nice - Ars Longa Vita Brevis (November, 1968) The Soft Machine - Volume Two (September, 1969) Frank Zappa - Hot Rats (October, 1969) or King Crimson - In the Court of the Crimson King (October, 1969) And of the four, I would suggest that King Crimson's had, by many measures, successfully navigated away from psychedelia or jazz to formulate a blueprint for progressive rock that was neither psych nor jazz-fusion. Argue amongst yourselves, or editorialize ad nauseam. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: May 24 2025 at 01:01
|
^ agreed - and ITCOTCK is definitely not proto-prog as was suggested earlier in the thread. Sure it was influenced by proto-prog but it took things a quantum leap further, and as you say it laid the basic blueprint for prog rock. ------------- "Christ, where would rock & roll be without feedback?" - D. Gimour |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 24 2025 at 02:38
blimey !!!  And Zibbie 2 never knighted them for this?!?!   hopefully, Chucky 3 will do before they have to shave Frippy's scrotum again. more seriously, what's this "official" thing?    ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 24 2025 at 06:38
|
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: May 24 2025 at 10:01
|
ITCOTCK is proto prog? That's a new one to me. 21st century schizoild man is full fledged prog and while most of the other stuff isn't nearly as complex I don't see how it wouldn't pass for prog rock these days. That VDGG album is a good option. What about the first Egg also which was recorded two months earlier but released a month later. The truth is there are a lot of albums that could be considered contenders for first prog album but I think many are not that well known. I think "Court" gets the attention at least partly because it was rather popular at the time. Many others have been forgotten or just were never that well known to begin with. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 24 2025 at 10:30
Hi, I think that KC's album was more about possibilities than it might have been about "prog", or (at the time) "art rock", which it definitely WAS! But this is where things get cloudy I think. I don't disagree with DE and he cleaned up the terminology and the ideas a bit better than most of us, however, I'm not sure that us inventing the "terms" and "terminology" some 20 or 30 years later, helps determine that ideas behind the music ... for me KC's album is a perfect screenshot of the time and place and its people, and the quite different pieces take on a lot of what was going on at the time, the megalomania, the wars and its killing of our "friends", the hippiedom idea and its romantic outlook, the wind talking but never saying anything for any of us to listen ... it didn't stop! Does it make it "progressive", yes it does, in the sense that it was quite adventurous and very experimental in ways we had not heard before, but, I'm not sure that our definitions and terminology really clarifies the time and place and its music, or arts ... it wasn't that simple, I don't think! Specially applying terms and ideas that were created much later to try and make sense of a lot of the arts, and in this case music. At that point, The Nice, Frank Zappa and VdGG are more important, and they all broke the mold and did something special ... that we love dearly. I just hope that the history of it gets cleaned up some more, and the music/arts matched to the time and place, so it makes better sense instead of us feeling that it is all too isolated and the meanings are not important ... everything about the artists/musicians helped create and define these things ... and I'm not sure we are giving them enough credit for it. But, yeah, it would be progressive in the sense that things changed and showed something that was not there before, but isn't that the history of the arts? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 24 2025 at 11:52
|
A few other albums from bands from the late 1960s attached with (at least in part) a prog label. Golden Earring ... 8 Miles High ... Dutch Omega ... 10000 Steps (English translation) ... Hungarian Phoenix ... Vremuri ... Romanian |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 24 2025 at 11:56
|
^ I think I understand what you're trying to say. I mostly tried to relate to this in the way I understood the question being asked, and using the same "logic". Btw: When I write Hippie or Psychedelic it's not meant as something negative or less worthy. It's closer to stating that Verklarte Nacht by Schoenberg still has a foot in the late Romantic era - while his Suite für Klavier has totaly abandoned that. The former composition is the only one of the two I love and listen to nevertheless.
|
Posted By: DoobieBrother6
Date Posted: May 24 2025 at 11:57
|
PINK FLOYD "Piper at Gates of Dawn" Aug '67 MOODY BLUES "days of Future Passed" Nov '67 HAPHASH AND THE COLOURED COAT Featuring the Human Host...." oct '67 (exceptionally strange "progressive" lp for this time) ART "Supernatural Fairy Tales" Dec '67 THE NICE "Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack" Mar 68 (my mono UK copy says '67 on the label but this is the copywright date - not necessarily the release date.) To further complicate: I'm told the BOOK on The Nice does not give exact date but says it was in the stores Oct '67.!!! The Nice - ars long vita Nov '68 VANILLA FUDGE "Renaissance" June '68 FAMILY "Music In A Doll's house" July 19 '68 MOODY BLUES 'in Search of the Lost Chord" July '68 TOUCH - SAME (I haven't found exact date. They recorded 67-68, lp released in '68. The only non-UK band here.) VAN DER GRAFF GENERATOR "Aerosol Grey Machine" Sept '69 (some say Jan '69) first release was US, not UK PROCOL HARUM "Shine on Brightly" Feb '69 (some say Sept '68 CLOUDS "Scrapbook" Aug '69 Julian's Treatment "A Time Before This" June '70. RARE BIRD - SAME Dec '69 RENAISSANCE -SAME Dec '69 PINK FLOYD "Piper at Gates of Dawn" August 1967 THE NICE "Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack" March 1968 ART "Supernatural Fairy Tales" November 1967 VANILLA FUDGE "Renaissance" June 1968 FAMILY "Music In A Doll's house" July 19 '68 (July 1968) MOODY BLUES 'in Search of the Lost Chord" July 1968 TOUCH - SAME December 1968 VAN DER GRAFF GENERATOR "Aerosol Grey Machine" December 1969 (US release) PROCOL HARUM "Shine on Brightly" December 1968 CLOUDS "Scrapbook" July 1969 KING CRIMSON "Court of Crimbo King" Oct 10 '69 DON SHINN departures Aug '69 .............. RARE BIRD - SAME November 1969 RENAISSANCE -SAME November 1969 Eyes Of Blue - Crossroads Of Time - November 1968 East Of Eden - Mercator Projected - March 1969 Blossom Toes - If Only For A Moment - July 1969 Mighty Baby - s/t - October 1969 Elmer Gantry's Velvet Opera - s/t - June 1968 Eire Apparent - Sunrise - May 1969 |
Posted By: ThyroidGlands
Date Posted: May 24 2025 at 13:07
|
Schizoid Man is a completely progressive track, unlike the rest of the album. ITWOP is much more progressive than its predecessor, and I consider Lizard and Islands to be jazz-rock albums with progressive touches. LTIA is definitely a fully progressive album. But well, that's just my opinion. Anyway, I do consider King Crimson and ITCOTCK as the quintessence of prog (even if that album doesn’t seem entirely progressive to me).
Totally agree. ------------- You don't know nothin' You don't know nothin' about You don't know nothin' You don't know nothin' at all |
Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 02:29
'Piper' is definitely not a prog album as we understand it - it falls into the category of Psychedelia. The only exception being 'Interstellar Overdrive' which leans towards full on prog (tho the better version IMO is the one on the 66-67 album). Interstellar certainly laid a blueprint for the brand of space rock that would see them though from 'Saucerful of Secrets' to 'Obscured By Clouds'. Just my opinion of course. ------------- "Christ, where would rock & roll be without feedback?" - D. Gimour |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 07:10
Hi, I just find it sad that, even here on PA, a lot of the history is left behind, which kinda makes a lot of albums come off without a soul in my book. Or, as I have heard one time and was incredibly astonished, was someone commenting on Neil Young and his very strong song about Kent State ... and that person thought that Neil was an ash-hole! Music, and any art, is all a part of the complete picture of any time and place, with one slight manipulation ... you look at the Renaissance, and you see the control of the arts, and there are many stories of persecutions and attempts at removing other artists, and writers, and we can go back to Galileo and many others ... the idea was to convince people that the powers that be made the laws and the decisions. You won't even consider that Guernica was a snapshot of a war that a child sees out the window in his house ... and it makes no sense ... the incredible carnage on top of it for a youngster to remember the rest of his life! Sure, calling it "cubism" is of interest, but that's like saying that Miro painted the most meaningful work of the 20th century, which both you and I will ROFLOL ... about! Rock music, specially, broke the mold and they ripped apart American radio for some 15/20 years, but this did not happen without what was taking place in the streets at all ... and I tend to think that over the years we have made the idea that numbers and songs are more important than life itself ... and I find this sad, and sometimes, even with the Internet ... extremely empty ... and something that eventually is going to hurt down the line as we take so much of these songs as if we were, still, 15/16 or 17 years old and loving a song that we played 10 times in a row! But I'm not sure that you won't agree that Jimi, Jim, Jefferson A, Creedence and so many others that were the bands that ended up helping the art rock become progressive rock within a few years! And they had opinions, unlike so many bands today that their work is not exactly important in relation to the rest of their time and place. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 08:05
Exactly. Too many like to jump right to KC Crimson King simply because it popularized prog but NOT the actual first prog album. There are many acts that featured prog tracks on non-prog albums but in by 1969 there were a few bonafide prog thru and thru albums that predated KC's big bang prog epic. Albums that came out before 10 October 1969, the day of KC's debut (i'm excluding overly pop or blues rock infused bands but there were many of those too) Moody Blues - Days of Future Passed (10 Nov 1967) Motheres of Invention - Uncle Meat (21 Apr 1969) Soft Machine -Volume Two (July 1969) High Tide - Sea Shanties (12 Sept 1969) East of Eden - Mercator Projected (Febr 1969) Julie Driscoll, Brian Auger & The Trinity - Streetnoise (May 1969) Andromeda - s/t (Sept 1969) Pete Brown & His Battered Ornaments - A Meal You Can Shake Hands With In The Dark (6 June 1969) Colosseum - Those Who Are About To Die Salute You (March 1969) Igginbottom - Igginbottom's Wrench (Aug 1969) Yes - s/t (25 July 1969) Touch - s/t (Nov 1968) The Nice - The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack (Mar 1968) - This band really launched the scene really. Hansson & Karlsson - Monument (Dec 1967) Van der Graaf Generator - The Aerosol Grey Machine (Sept 1969) Ekseption - s/t (July 1969) The Open Window - s/t (May 1969) There are literally dozens more that featured early prog characteristics but existed in that murky "proto-prog" territory KC was without a doubt the most developed and perfected prog album to emerge which is why many consider it ground zero but quality isn't the same as definition :) -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 08:21
Hi, I have a tendency to think that considering many of these bands listed as "proto-prog" is not right ... in my book, they were a part of what helped bring what we consider "the real thing" to fruition, thus kinda considering many of these bands "inferior" and not fit to be included in the line with the big kahuna! It makes it look like we could not agree on a lot of things, so we invented a sub-genre, so we could dump all the stuff that wasn't "good enough" to be considered a major work ... The hard part is that I see we are ignoring the history and the timeline of these bands and their life and appreciation/influence ... I think from a ground roots idea, they were probably more important to the general listenership than KC would have been, because their work was easier on the ears, for example. But in all likelihood it was what helped us get ear sensitive and end up appreciating a KC and other works. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 08:28
|
^ i agree with that. Many proto-prog bands really were prog but i think they rushed through many artists in the beginning and pigeonholed them in certain genre tags. We should really have a multiple tagging system that allows users to vote just like on RYM. That gives a much more accurate description of any particular album. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 08:35
|
Genres are created by perception not production (they are categories for music, not music itself), and with hindsight. I'd say that ITCOTCK is the first prog album in the sense that people would largely agree, with hindsight, that prog as a genre existed from the point ITCOTCK came out and not before (at least, only a minority would say it existed as a genre before, or it had to wait still for longer). Of course same holds for Hot Rats but rather by implication - Hot Rats could be assigned to an already existing genre at that point without big problems. ITCOTCK not so much. But what is important about this is that the statement that ITCOTCK is the first prog album in this sense is not exclusively a statement about the album itself and the music on it. It is a statement about the state of development of rock music at this point in general, and it also includes that many elements of prog had been there before. This means that all or most of the albums listed here that came before ITCOTCK like Ars Longa Vita Brevis, Days of Future Passed, Freak Out etc. actually contribute to forming the prog genre and have their part in saying that with ITCOTCK prog was finally fully there. So for example the point is not to listen to ALVB and ITCOTCK and to say ITCOTCK sounds full prog and ALVB doesn't. The point is many elements (also brought in by other albums) important to prog were not yet there when ALVB appeared but were there when ITCOTCK appeared, including ALVB itself, and it's this what makes ITCOTCK the "first prog album". |
Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 09:02
|
There is the other question: Who coined the term 'progressive (or prog) rock'? But maybe that's another topic altogether. ------------- "Christ, where would rock & roll be without feedback?" - D. Gimour |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 10:39
There are artists that are truly the first to experiment in a new style and then there are artists that start a revolution KC started the revolution but weren’t the first prog Same thing for the Sex Pistols who started the punk revolution but weren’t the first punk act It seems there a divide between which of these distinctions is being prioritized ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 12:26
| ^ I don't think any one person - or in this case band, started anything ever, as such. Not single handidly. But with In the Court of the Crimson King, what we commonly understand as "classic Progressive Rock", was sort of calcified. You can find earlier examples and many traces of most - if not all of the music featured on that album. But I'd still argue that there was nothing quite like it out there already, before it was released and unleashed. The effect and influence it has had on the scene that was to become, cannot be overstated imo. In The Court... started something of a musical revolution (in a rock context) that doesn't really happen anymore - almost worldwide. There's so much Progressive Rock (and more) that "we" love and treasure that can be traced back to that specific album. |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 18:50
|
I've been listening rather intently to all of the albums listed above and a few more not mentioned here but listed in the discussion thread from 2010 (e.g. Pet Sounds [5/66], Electric Prunes debut [10/66], The Psychedelic Sounds of The 13th Floor Elevators [10/66], Don Ellis' 'Live' at Monterey ! [late 1966], The Doors' debut [1/67], Smiley Smile [5/67], Red Krayola's The Parable of Arable Land [6/67], Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band [6/67], Procol Harum's debut [9/67--though "Whiter Shade of Pale" came out in May], Strawberry Alarm Clock's Incense and Peppermints [a surprisingly VERY proggy album released in October of 1967], Fifty Foot Hose's Cauldron [Winter 1968], The United States of America s/t debut [3/68], Frank Zappa's Lumpy Gravy [5/68], The Crazy World of Arthur Brown [6/68], Pink Floyd's A Saucerful of Secrets [6/68], David Axelrod's Song of Innocence [10/68], Touch's debut [11/68], and The Soft Machine's debut [12/68]) and I have to say the the FEEL that I've come associate with "progressive rock music"--and which ITCotCK epitomizes--was present with Procol Harum's self-titled debut [9/67], The Strawberry Alarm Clock's debut, Incense & Peppermints [10/67], The Moody Blues' Days of Future Passed [10/67], The Nice's The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack [3/68], The United States of America's debut [3/68], Frank Zappa's Lumpy Gravy [5/68], Pink Floyd's Saucerful of Secrets [6/68], David Axelrod's Song of Innocence [10/68], and The Collectors' lone album, The Collectors [11/68]--all of which preceded the year 1969 and King Crimson's fully-fledged masterpiece by over a year. The purpose of these threads was to discuss which albums you think paved the way for ITCotCK and which ones might have even preceded it as a fully-formed progressive rock album. My vote would go to Days of Future Passed, The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack, and The United States of America debut with honorable mentions to Procul Harum, Arthur Brown, Pink Floyd, and Frank Zappa. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 19:10
|
For anyone interested i made a comprehensive list on Rate Your Music that features the earliest examples of progressive rock, jazz fusion and progressive folk It covers the early proto-prog as well as the full blown prog and roughly covers the period from 1963 to 1969 with a couple 1970 albums appearing because someone changed the release date since i made this list The multiple tagging feature on RYM allows you to gauge the fuller sound of any particular album. This list was fun to make as it turned me on to many acts i had never explored. https://rateyourmusic.com/list/siLLy_puPPy/secret-origins-the-earliest-examples-of-progressive-rock-progressive-folk-and-jazz-rock-fusion/" rel="nofollow - /rateyourmusic.com/list/siLLy_puPPy/secret-origins-the-earliest-examples-of-progressive-rock-progressive-folk-and-jazz-rock-fusion/ ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 19:26
This begs more attention, or appreciation, be given to Giles,Giles,& Fripp's two albums from 1968. Though certainly not 'Prog rock' in the way the Nice presented it, it does have clear evidence of a progressive desire as in 'Tremolo Study in A Major', 'Suite No. 1', 'Erudite Eyes', and of course a neolithic 'I Talk to the Wind' . ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 23:11
I’m impressed with this list! You even have one of the three obscure ones that I mentioned (Omega). I think that sometimes it’s the one that gets the most noise that people put forth, but you make a convincing argument that it was a bubbling cauldron of this and that which morphed into this stew that we call Prog rock. There were certainly a lot of post-WW 2 Jazz cats that were making very complex and modern sounds. I unearthed some of them recently and was just blown away. Check out Art Tatum “Yesterdays” for example. https://youtu.be/D9Cs_zb4q14?si=fX5LuB96hUlH1cU5" rel="nofollow - Art Tatum - Yesterdays |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 27 2025 at 04:43
Sums it up perfectly for me and I would add the idea that you need an elite group of musicicans to realise this to such a high level that puts it apart from the pack. It's an ensemble album, no doubt Fripp was the leader but he was good at letting the guys do their stuff. With the exception of Zappa, very few bands can be named that had this level of virtuosity in its ranks. They explore pop, classical, jazz and avant music. It's all there and done with total clarity and aplomb. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 27 2025 at 23:41
Hi, I like this, and I wonder if this album ended up defining something about the music that no one gives a damn about, these days (nothing to fight for?) ... but it was very clear in the KC album ... it's lyrics were very pointed and direct and took on various themes ... where most bands, did one or two pieces that had a point and the rest was either a filler, or not as important. I kinda remember Jefferson Airplane, be like that some ... one really pointed thing, and then another that was ... wtfudge happened? And these days all books point to the different personalities in the band between Martin, Paul and Grace and probably others. This was not the case with the KC album, and it continued on all musical pieces all the way to the end ... you end it with an Epitaph to the many friends you lost or knew in one way or another ... it didn't matter if it was VietNam or the Irish bombs, or some other global event ... it was all there, but us kinda looking at this as just a "progressive album" or the "1st album in the progressive mode", is nice and a great thing, but I think this makes RF think that the completeness of the work is being ignored and not mentioned or discussed, because no one has read the lyrics, or gives a damn about lyrics anyway! In the end, the lyrical content alone makes a lot of bands come off second rate, and I sometimes think that is a fair statement. Thus, it is a progressive first, and even more so ... lyrically ... something that most of us here, do not like to discuss ... because half the time we don't bother reading it or appreciating it ... witness the usual discussion of TFTO and so many folks dismissing it, as just crap and over stuffed tomatoes! Yeah, in the end, this KC album gets y vote in many more ways than just one ... but I don't think that it got that done without seeing so much of it in front of them by so many other groups and folks, though I would agree that it was not as strong, and complete, as KC managed to get it to be ... and I think this was the strength of the album ... it's not just a bunch of ninny pop songs!!! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 28 2025 at 01:17
How about Magma: didn't they singlehandedly started Zeuhl? One could say that same with Zappa. Otherwise, I agree wit the rest of your post ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 28 2025 at 02:22
|
^ Not unlike King Crimson, Magma presented themselves to the world with something unique right out of the gate. But Magma weren't unique in the sense that they "invented" a new kind of music. Their debut/Kobaïa & Zeuhl are a combination of many existing musical expressions. Of course you already know this, but I'm just trying to answer your question. Vander's Coltrane worship is well known. Their two first albums are essentially a highly original, spiritual and distinctive take on Jazz Rock-Fusion. I love most things Zeuhl and Christian Vander coming up a total package, including a complete universe, a made up language and a new musical genre is both impressive and a stroke of genius. But the genre thing is still partly a gimmick to me. I mean The Residents had a full concept and their music arguably came even more out of nowhere imo. But they didn't introduce themselves with a new musical genre to boot, so we lump them into Avant Prog. Magma would either have been lumped in there too - or in Jazz Rock Fusion. If it wasn't for Zeuhl it would have been just as natural or unnatural for us as having Zappa and Miles placed in those two genres. There was plenty of music made in 1969-1971 (and before) for me to state that Magma and Zeuhl - unique as it is - was also smack dab in the middle of the zeitgeist of the era. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: May 28 2025 at 11:16
| Another contender would be the band Canterbury Glass. At least one track featured some young guitarist named Steve Hackett. However, it wasn't actually released until the late 90s or so. |
Posted By: Paulofto
Date Posted: June 04 2025 at 15:17
| For your consideration, Small Faces “Ogden’s’ Nut Gone Flake” a concept album with prog overtones. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 04 2025 at 21:45
Hi, AND a terrific fun album to listen to ... all the way through it. However, I am not sure I would consider that "progressive" as much as I would really good, and above average, pop music done well, and thought out rather than just play for the hit. The songs were great all the way through. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |