Prog Archives was always only about Progressive Music. It's been carved up to genres, to satisfy diversity, and that's fine. So we all live with Kansas, Styx, Deep Purple & Saga to be welcomed on this site. 

Fine, I may not agree, but there are some splinters here and there with many, many bands that are nowhere near progressive music.

After being away for awhile, I return to see The Doors are included on this site. I fail to see (exception of Ray Mazareks The Golden Scarab) the Doors as being Progressive. I lived their heyday and they were then and still are a Pop band. 

If you need to keep growing and expanding, maybe merge Jazz Music Archives into this site and just label it, The Music Archives. 

You said "many bands that are nowhere near progressive music" - maybe give us some examples. 

The Doors are proto-prog, some think they were important in the formation of progressive music, with their jams and suites and theatricality. So were the early days of Deep Purple (Rod Evans era). 

Styx are prog-related, so no harm done. 

As for Kansas and Saga, I got no problem with them being on PA. 

We opened for The Doors.

Didn't they eventually change their name to the Knobs?

I've heard Spanish Caravan referred to as prog also. Light My Fire could be on the list too if for no other reason than the long organ solo.

At first I thought you were serious but now I get the joke. 

Hi,

It's very sad that someone would say what he did about The Doors. Of the number of bands listed on PA, The Doors would fit better than many of them, and their music has stood up the test of time beautifully, although I think that growlers and metalheads like to shrink their noses at a singer like Jim Morrison, making their bands sound very amateuristic, not to mention that many of them are mere copies of each other.

One thing we all can say about The Doors, is that their originality is without a doubt a reason to be included on PA.

Maybe the guy posting the OP only, ever, heard the AM version of Light My Fire ... Paul .. it didn't have the organ solo, btw! 

BTW, I haven't heard that Albinoni piece by The Doors and am looking for it!

nonsense and a bit insulting...

 

If you think The Doors is the worst inclusion to the site, you're gonna hate some of the more recent inclusions 

What recent inclusions?! I don't think any of them are controversial. The controversial entries are so few, it's not even worth fussing about. 

The Doors is not a controversial addition to PA, at all. 

I just meant comparatively, since a lot of PA members still don't respect certain genres on here like prog metal or tech/extreme. I can only imagine what people would have thought of Avenged Sevenfold's inclusion if the userbase was still in that 2007 mindset 

Well, I said no to them in 2023.  But I don't want to open this can of worms . 

mellotronwave wrote: AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: Nogbad_The_Bad wrote: I thought that was The Handles? Didn't they eventually change their name to the Knobs? Good one

I'm pretty sure that was Led Zeppelin circa 1968.

How long have you been away, 16, 17 years? 

Great post! 

You could argue that proto-prog and prog-related artists don't have a place here at all, and that there's too many metal genres that have little to do with classic prog rock, but then I wouldn't say PA 'lost its way', because that has always been the case AFAIK.

They did, but quickly became The Hinges after realizing the name wouldn't get passed the censors in the UK.

All of this proto, pre-, post, math etc. is a bunch of baloney in my book!!  ALL music is based upon mathematics, ALL music led to what we now call "progressive" (Quintette du Hot Club de France!), etc.  

Drastically?! How drastically? I think you are exaggerating a little bit. 

Of course, older albums have more reviews/ratings than recent albums. Yet, I think the downward review/rating trend is obvious. 

 Compare the 2022 top 10 albums with the 2018 top ten.    677 ratings for 2022 top ten. 2093 ratings for 2018 top 10 albums.

The 2015 top 10 albums have a total of 7325 ratings.  Unless I'm mistaken, new albums tend to collect more reviews/ratings per year than older albums.   In the current year 2023 albums collect more reviews/ratings than 2018 albums.  

The lion's share of  2018 reviews/ratings are from the 2018-2019 years.  For example, the #1 album from 2018 (All Traps On Earth) collected 27 reviews in 2018-2019 and 7 reviews in all the years since then.

ok, thanks for explaining. 

What we have is what we have. It's up to us to make the best of it. And incase no one was looking, the Main page is usually filled with reviews of the most outra prog albums imaginable, from a myriad of different sub genres both old and new. Reviews are the main reason this site exists. The rest is all academic to that purpose.

If you're gonna remove The Doors because they're not really prog, then you should also get rid of, like, Klaus Schultze or uh, Tangerine Dream...? Soniq Theater? xD The point is that labeling can get real subjective and there always will be some purist who might say "this shouldn't be on PA, because it's too pop, not rock enough, too derivative" and so on and so on et al. The fact the subgenres are there is super convenient IMHO, because it gives you clue on what to expect from a band, if you for example want to explore new music.

But anyway, an actual good way to improve the site would be to make star ratings in reviews optional. B)

I agree. 

I was in an art-project band called "Casual Crobar," which was a bunch of looney artist types who created a fictional Spinal Tap tribute band!!  It was a "Mobius Strip of Bad."  Gawd it was fun!

We were Prog?  One non-Tap song we covered was "Baby's On Fire," from Eno's "Here Come the Warm Jets."  I managed to sing Eno's lead AND played Fripp's solo (badly, I might add).  I'm the clown in the white lab coat. 

Why is it smeared with blood, you ask?  "I'm a gynecologist, I had a bad day" was my typical reply. 

Progressive doesn't have to mean "good!"  

I don't know if it's a "major dampener of suggestions", but yes, the site is clunky sometimes, but I don't mind, I must be getting old or something... 

I don't see the attraction of RYM. 

In my mind I have a list of new artists that I'd like to suggest band.  But, the moderators won't let me suggest new artists.

The requirement to write a bio and convince a team to add a band is too much for many non-English speakers. In my case i have hundreds of suggestions and just don't have time to go through the official process. As far as the clunkiness goes, how much longer will this site last without major updates? Is there any indication by the owner that these updates are in the process to give us faith that the site will be here in 5 years? I personally have zero faith it will be.

The attraction of RYM is manyfold:

1) it's updated regularly! The easy of navigation is a charm.

2) multitagging for albums, not artists! If i'm looking for an album that is both symphonic prog and Arabic folk music for example, i can easily find it in the search engine!

3) higher number of users. Our top albums i YES' Close To The Edge.

On PA there are only 4976 ratings. On RYM 28,719. Obviously for many progheads prefer that site

4) Users can vote on album genres!

5) Just more innovative in about every way.

Punished for politics. Another feature that bogs this site down. None of that on RYM (as far as adding artists). Funny that most of the political banter here is totally clueless as to the true nature of politics :/

Again, I have no desire to visit that site, spend time there. I  looked for album info a few times and that was it.

The moderators won't let me suggest new bands.  Like Cristi said, only collaborators can add. 

Maybe. I do not think this far ahead. 

That's true for me as well. 

PA is also better in that it has alphabetical lists for genres. That is very helpful.

Also it is better at adding newer prog artists. That is one of RYM's weak points.

All in all though once you get the hang of RYM it's a great site.

I love this site too. I don't want this one to disappear. I just want it updated :/

Not necessarily an advantage. I speak 4 languages and can read two more

However, I don't like the way RYM, and its voting system to make a correction.

I've got 4 corrections that are still waiting after 10 years.... So screw it. 

RYM are different beasts, so no serious comparisons are possible

The RYM site is still useful (the search function is very helpful - we don't have one) and navigation from one album to the next (or previous) is excellent. A lot of members here are also members there.

I dislike RYM's cookie-waiving policies , though.

PA used to have that in-between album navigation on every album page, but it got taken away, because M@X thought it was slowing data transfer. 

But if I want details, I'll use Discogs.

A lot of members here are also members there.

.

I think the people who post on here are great, and this forum is great fun, as well as informative. 

Pipeline corns are asking me about my physics and my soap dish.

I had no idea The Doors were on PA, let alone defined as "Proto-Prog"! 

It needs to be remembered that the owner of this site saw it not just as a progressive rock encyclopaedia, but as a means of making money through traffic generating advertisement income. The more traffic, the more income, hence the ridiculous inclusion of acts such as The Doors, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, and etc. It had nothing whatsoever to do with “progressive traits”, but everything to do with attracting people to visit the site.

^ That's not entirely fair--  if it were just income, a lot more acts than the Doors or Purple or any other artist someone may deem 'not prog' would be included, but of course both Protoprog & Progrelated aren't prog rock subgenres.   

I would also add that to assert flatly that Black Sabbath (Prog-related here,not Proto), one of the most seminal and innovative rock bands ever, was not significant to progressive rock is dubious.   It isn't just that Sabbath was an important band that practically invented heavy metal, it's that the creative statement they were making with their stark, anti-Hippie hard rock was as progressive as what Tull or ELP were doing.   The whole damned era was progressive, that's the point.

I would suggest that M@X was pleasantly surprised that ProgArchives managed to become a top 80 most-visited site on the web, but that was also not intended, IMHO.

Should he have wanted to create a very successful website (that's his job in real life, after all) about rock music in 2004, he might've chosen another rock genre (like Metal, for ex) or just a general music site.

By the time he got around to create MMA and JMA in 2009 or 2011, they were never as successful, because of the competition was too strong (the genius was to have "started" PA in 2004, timewise - even if he bought the site from a Florida duo and moved it to Quebec). So assuming he did it for the money is wrong. He flashed on "Prog" via the VdGG's The Box boxset, but he was a metalhead before that.  

I dare say that he (Max) learned quite a bit about the genre seeing our contributions, and he did encourage us to be  inclusive - whereas many symph-weenie progheads would've preferred to be exclusive >> the fights were numerous.

The one policy that I didn't like was that, once introduced, the artiste's total discography fad to be filled in (hence Kind Of Blue)

TBH, that's stopped me from introducing more 50/60's jazz artistes like McCoy Tyner , etc...

Also in several cases, the band's discography may not be considered as prog as a whole, but they have one or two albums which are proggy and this justifies their inclusion.

My dear chap, I was not belittling them. I love both, as any even cursory glance at my written work will attest. They are simply not progressive rock. Art rock at times, yes, and with tracks which were very influenced by and on progressive rock. I was merely stating why they were included, and that was to drive traffic. I didn’t say it was wrong 

Like someone said above - proto-prog and prog-related are not prog subgenres or music genres. 

Deep Purple are classified under proto-prog for the early albums, Jon Lord's contribution alone makes DP worthy to be included here. 

Black Sabbath is on PA under prog-related. This should not upset anyone. 

I also doubt they were added to PA to drive traffic. 

Just to note:

Prog Archives was officially launched in September, 2002. The earliest snapshot of the website is from July, 26 2002 at waybackmachine. https://web.archive.org/web/20020726140505/http://www.progarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - https://web.archive.org/web/20020726140505/http://www.progarchives.com/

Prog Archives existed before M@X came onboard and eventually acquired it.

I can't remember who originally set it up, but it was Prog fans I believe, but I believe that ProgLucky (Rony) (also a Prog fan) acquired the site from the original owners and then brought on M@X (who designs and works on websites) who later bought the site.  In 2003 there is a message that ProgArchives is https://web.archive.org/web/20030126102830/http://www.progarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - changing management.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040801000000*/progarchives.com" rel="nofollow - https://web.archive.org/web/20040801000000*/progarchives.com

By the way, while there earlier suggestion threads included in Suggest new Bands for the Doors, here was the latest before and after addition.  https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31414" rel="nofollow - https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31414

Not necessarily an advantage. I speak 4 languages and can read two more

It is an advantage cuz the language is standarized. That way, it's less distracting and more accessible to an average reader. :)

Hi,

It's an even bigger "advantage" when it comes to the cultural basis of the language ... a perfect example is the same phrase is stated differently in each language, and the inflections, is like theater ... it seems so different and yet saying the same thing!

The "standardized" thing, is an invented IDEAL for commercial purposes. It has very little to do with the work and the art itself ... but it has the advantage of the wider/larger audience being able to buy it and "understand it". And this might be something that the smaller countries and cultures can take advantage of and gain from a lot ... and it shows in music (though not as visible in other arts!!!), although I'm not sure PA has something like 150 different soccer countries or something like it! Film, classical music, theater and literature are not "gaining" from this as much as rock music has ... from this commercial advantage.

The "standardization" is not really necessary. My preference, these days, is not to hear a foreign band sing in English (for example) but to hear them in the beauty, lyricism, and nuances of their own language. In a "standardization", this gets completely lost ... and our ideas that we miss the what the whole thing is about is thought to be lost ... and it isn't ... one could say we're being lazy ... but be it any of the romance languages, not a single one of them have ever sounded weird to my ear, and then you can add a lot of the Eastern Europeans ... and African ... Latin American ... and the individual touches are amazing ... and totally special. It is weird to me that we can not "enjoy" that ... and think that our own "god" has to speak English ... and that is going to end up in a holy war and total destruction! Jesus of Nazareth and Moses ... did not speak English! And no one has any idea of what they might have sounded like in their own idiom! 

But we think that in English is the perfect this or that ... golly damn that Charlton Heston ... he ruined us!

Purple is in PA because of their first four albums (including that catastrophic concerto)

Hrychu wrote: Not necessarily an advantage. I speak 4 languages and can read two more It is an advantage cuz the language is standarized. That way, it's less distracting and more accessible to an average reader. :)

But if you're aiming at international readership, multiple language usage is better

The only problem I see is that  you need someone in your staff fluent in that language to monitor if the review meets the requirements/guidelines.

.

Jon Lord's Concerto for Group and Orchestra still remains one of my all-time favourite Deep Purple albums. It's also one of the first Symphonic Prog albums. 

However to do it or whatever to do, I think it's a very important issue to think about in order to do it in a reasonnable way.

I think The Doors were one of the first prog-rock bands. People talk about the music, lyrics, so I'll add rhythm.... 

Between 1967-1971,

Break on Through (Bossanova)
Light My Fire (Latin)
Moonlight Drive (Tango)
Cars Hiss By My Window (Blues)
Love Her Madly (Rock)
Wintertime Love (Jazz)
Roadhouse Blues (Shuffle)
Strange Days (Tribal)
The WASP (Military cadence and jazz)
Spanish Caravan (consistent pounding 2nd verse)

Sean Trane wrote: Hrychu wrote: Not necessarily an advantage. I speak 4 languages and can read two more It is an advantage cuz the language is standarized. That way, it's less distracting and more accessible to an average reader. :) But if you're aiming at international readership, multiple language usage is better The only problem I see is that  you need someone in your staff fluent in that language to monitor if the review meets the requirements/guidelines.

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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions

exactly. In reverse I've sometimes heard ELP described as 'Heavy Metal' (listening to say PAAE this is not a wildly off view) but would you expect them to be anywhere near a site dedicated to Metal or Heavy rock. We can respect bands at a distance perhaps. That said I did push for the inclusion of Maiden here and genuinely thought they had a strong case but plenty pushed back against that. 

Aretha Franklin and a gazillion pop and jazz artists boasted the same diversity of genres which is admirable but doesn't make them progressive rock.

I'm OK with The Doors being here simply for The Soft Parade alone otherwise they were just above average to OMG phenomenal psychedelic rock.

This English-only rule prevents non-English speakers/writers from making valuable contributions to the site and, sorry to say, has an air of colonialism in it.

It's an international language and it's easy to learn by non-English speakers. The colonialism thing is a lame excuse IMO. Why make a website a trash can of shіt in all languages of the world if we can have a clean, tidy accessible international English-languaged website? With easier communication and moderation?

Sorry, I guess I was wrong about that idea. Maybe it's just me? I work with multilingual databases in my day job and I'm just used to seeing things in many languages in my line of work (which is mostly messing around with library metadata for database ingestion).

Yeah? But why should the reader use an unprecise tool to get a general sense of understanding someone's review? Can't that reviewer write their Basque or Finnish etc. reviews on like a website that's designed in such a language? And use English in the first place for international communication?

I live my life without the GAFA's

It took me years to kick out google out of my PC for good (had to make sure the updates didn't reinstall it), but I finally managed it

More difficult to do it at work, though, as I don't master the whole shebang. 

Hi,

The idea is right and makes sense and it would be a nice Utopian view of communication world wide.  It would also be a sort of "euro" where the sharing and the this and that can be worked out and each country can benefit ... until one set of hooligans decide they want out because they are richer than the rest and they want the money and the controls.

Now you have an issue, and someone that thinks their language, their method and their color and their dog, is the way things should be ... what happens then? The communication and moderation breaks down, and it goes back to their old customs, with one issue ... the smaller country and cultural group ends up decimated ... I guess that's the history of the world, anyway, the strong survive and the weak die! 

Now change the wording ... what happens if Chinese becomes "the" language in the Far East .... and the Japanese will want another war? I know what side you gonna fight on (I would too!). Not sure we can include/change thousands of years of history in this story ... 

 

What if they don't speak English?

^

So you can't take the heat when someone disagrees, huh? I find it futile to spin one's wheels over something so petty and out of one's own control. So now disagreeing is tantamount to being close-minded? LOL. Lighten up. It's all just good conversation. Your point is totally heard and you have a right to your opinion. I'm just saying that i DO like multiple languages but i'm a linguist so go figure