More significant to Prog, Magma or Kansas?
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Printed Date: May 16 2025 at 12:35
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Topic: More significant to Prog, Magma or Kansas?
Posted By: Logan
Subject: More significant to Prog, Magma or Kansas?
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 11:41
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Kansas and Magma are two bands that I often have seen listed as the big ten or so Prog bands, which likely could take into account things such as its influence on other Prog bands/ movements, popularity in Prog circles, knownness, its innovation, progressiveness, groundbreaking qualities, perhaps its fidelity to progressive rock, perhaps its general contributions to progressive rock over the years as well as its early influence on other bands and the public.... Both bands have had long careers, with a comparable number of studio albums (Magma has many more live releases). Both released their first album in the first half of the 70s and released an album in the 2020s. Magma's first, a double-album, was in 1970, Kansas came later at 1974, which is significantly later for the classic Prog years, but one might take into account the state of Prog in the US in the early 70s compared to France and Europe). Magma is much less known generally, but inspired the Zeuhl movement in Prog circles, which has its own category at our site. Kansas is often considered to be an especially important band in American Prog circles (sometimes called Pomp Prog), but it often is linked more to AOR than Prog with the general public... Magma had its much reviled Merci in the mid 80s, Kansas had Drastic Measures. Anyway, interpret "significance/ importance to Prog" as you like to come up with your own takes/ arguments. We all have our biases, but I wanted to try something a bit different from just listing a favourite that might lead to some interesting take, perspectives, and conversation. I am interested to read what people write. Feel free to share any opinions relevant to the topic even if you do not vote. And just because I like to share videos, here is the first track of the debut album of each that kicked them off... Not that these should influence you at all. Magma "Kobaia" (Magma, 1970) Kansas "Can I Tell You" (Kansas, 1974) |
Replies:
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 11:47
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Both are important in their own way. Magma are the creators of zeuhl, and Kansas were influential for a lot of bands, in the prog world and non prog as well (hard rock, AOR).
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 12:12
Thanks. I messed up on the the third option for which I had not thought the phrasing through, by the way, changed to "lacking an opinion or both have equal merits". Equal merits is badly phrased, actually, but wanted to add something like that. I know, maybe "Won't choose one over the other". Better. |
Cristi wrote:Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 12:49
Kansas by far. They had two of the best singers in rock and their harmonies were spot on. Their music is easier on the ears, and you don't have to learn a new language. And most of all they are from my home state. 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 13:37
| If I was thinking preference, then it would be Magma for sure for me, but for significance specifically to progressive rock, I would factor in its influence, innovation, and global (as opposed to individual) Prog popularity, and considering sales for its Prog output would be another factor for me (I'm sure Kansas has sold much more and is better known to general audiences -- both I guess are well-know to the Prog intelligentsia/ cognoscenti. While I know that Magma influenced many bands (which are more on the underground side), I don't know as much about Kansas' influence on Progressive Rock. I don't feel like I know enough at this time to make a judgment on significance from a variety of angles. If I were to vote now, I would vote for the third option, but I would rather do some research and weigh up the arguments or perspectives presented in this thread. Even if it's not super serious business. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 13:48
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Off the top of my head...a few bands influenced by Kansas. Spock's Beard Dream Theater Dixie Dregs Magellan Enchant Salem Hill Vanden Plas Neal Morse Steve Morse |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 14:11
| ^ Thanks. And even I know all those names and have recognised Kansas-like qualities in the ones there of which I have listened. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 14:37
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Magma by far, as the innovators of a whole and quite popular sub-genre. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 15:03
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^ Shirley Magma? She a Zeuhl vocalist? ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 16:21
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Magma. A whole genre started with them, especially the Japanese Zeuhl bands. I emit heat signatures when something is happening. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 17:43
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Actually, I'd say, Magma has a very special status in the world of Prog as being the only originator of a whole and even quite significant sub-genre.  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 18:49
| Since both equally is not an option I chose the third option. They are really apples and oranges though and have both been influential to a completely different set of bands. |
Posted By: mathman0806
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 22:58
| *I think the same so I chose the third option as well. Besides the apples and oranges aspect, I don't have any metric I would use to measure significance. They are pivotal bands in what we have in prog rock today. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 23:14
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Third option. I am totally guided by PA when it comes to Zeul which I know little or nothing about (Mike Oldfield supposedly ripping them off seems to be their most famous fact!) Based on talent alone there were few better bands than Kansas. Steve Walsh should be in any self respecting prog supergroup line up you care to name any day of the week on twice on Sundays. Song For America could easily be a top 5 symph track of all time. Problem for me is I want more of that and less of the increasingly AOR/Corporate Rock style stuff they put out later in the 70's and early 80's. I do like the recent albums although many see this as not the real thing, no Walsh (or Livgren) no Kansas. Certainly for me one of the best live bands I've ever seen with only Yes and King Crimson ahead in that regards.
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 27 2024 at 23:22
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Kansas sold like 15 million albums - the lion's share of them in
North America. That's a lot of albums. But Peter Framton sold closer
to 20 million albums. Does anyone think of him as a significant and infuential rock-artist for thst reason? I
don't. Eskaton, Koenji Hyakkei and
Weidorje wouldn't exist in the shape that they do (or did) without
Magma, but would Spock's Beard or Dream Theater sound much differnt had
Kansas not existed? Not in the same sense. Magma
is like a French school for strange music - a whole universe and a
informal university. Seemingly all 100+ past members started their own
band. Christian Vander created a unique sounding genre, a language and a
whole mindset that has inspired musicians all over the planet for more
than 50 years. Several hundred bands and projects can be directly linked
to Magma and Zeuhl.
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Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 00:46
According to their website, Kansas sold more than 30 million albums. As you stated, most of their albums were sold in N. America. My take is Kansas was the more significant band in the Prog world. They contributed to the subgenre of Prog, Symphonic, that most people in general think of when it comes to Prog. Yes, Genesis, Emerson Lake and Palmer, Kansas, etc were major bands that in the 70s who were at least known to a majority of fans of rock music. You could be a fan of Prog and still not have heard of Magma and other Zeuhl Prog bands. It may be creative, innovative, inspiring etc, but when you consider how few albums that subgenre sells, even in their hey day, how significant in the grand scheme of things is Magma and Zeuhl subgenre to Prog? I would think that Kansas has had a far bigger influence on just guitarists, for example who have learned Carry on Wayward Son or Dust in the Wind. My son, who is in college and is a multi-instrumentalist, learned Dust in the Wind and plays the riff parts of Carry on Wayward Son. He is aware of the major Prog bands from the past and is a fan of some of the modern Prog Bands like Steven Wilson and Plini. If I asked him if he has heard of Magma, he wouldn't have the slightest idea who they are. |
Posted By: Octopus II
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 01:03
Both 
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 01:44
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^^Yes Big Sky, but you're an American. In Europe a progger would have heard of Magma. Kansas may just as well be a band you've heard about, but never actually heard. And they surely wouldn't be associated with prog, unless you are someone into prog. Anyway my point is sales and popularity doesn't equal infuence, and I don't think Kansas are a highly influential band on the prog scene (wrong or not, it's completely normal not to think of them as having a relation to prog whatsoever, so they are very much not considered at all), but Magma is infuenial way, way beyond their "size". |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 05:44
| Both are excellent to my ears, and I find their influenc in quite many bands, artists and pog sub-genres. |
Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 06:56
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Option 3. ------------- Welcome to the middle of the film. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 13:00
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About Kansas, they're nothing like matching top bands in my book. Some of their albums are quite high-rated on PA but not on RYM where the numbers of ratings are much bigger. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 15:38
David, Pretty much the numbers of most artists and bands on PA is going to have higher numbers than what you will find on RYM. Yes only has one album over a 4 rating on RYM (CTTE 4.16), Genesis has one (Selling England by the Pound 4.01), Jethro Tull has one (TAAB 4.01), Rush none, etc. If you want to compare Kansas top albums to say Styx, Boston or Supertramp on RYM. Kansas: Leftoverture (3.67), Point of Know Return (3.66), Song for America (3.66) Styx: Pieces of Eight (3.5), Grand Illusion (3.48), Crystal Ball (3.47) Boston: Boston (3.63), Don't Look Back (3.35), Third Stage (3.12) Supertramp: Breakfast in America (3.85), Crime of the Century (3.83), Even in the Quietest of Moments (3.71). Some other big artists top ranking album rating on RYM. Bruce Springsteen, Born to Run (3.95); Blondie, Parallel Lines (3.81), John Lennon, Imagine (3.65); Van Halen, Van Halen (3.73); Michael Jackson, Thriller (3.99); Taylor Swift, Folklore (3.47); Earth Wind and Fire, I Am (3.73); The Cars, The Cars (3.73); John Mellencamp, Lonesome Jubilee (3.65); Soundgarden, Superunknown (3.88); Steely Dan, Aja (4.01); Muse, Origin of Symmetry (3.66); Garth Brooks, Garth Brooks (3.21); Beastie Boys, Paul's Boutique (3.94); Seal, Seal (3.48); Snoop Dogg, Doggystyle (3.85); Grateful Dead, American Beauty (3.67); Dave Matthews Band, Before These Crowded Streets (3.53); Pearl Jam, Ten (3.74). There are some artists that do rate higher on RYM than on PA, Radiohead being a notable artist with three albums that have a rating over 4 on RYM and only 1 album on PA. But in general, forums that focus on a genre that artists fall will do better than on RYM. Magma's top rated album on RYM is K.A. (3.84). There are 9 albums on PA with a rating over 4. |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 16:01
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I won't vote cause I'm not a prog historian. :P But personally I don't really like Magma all that much. Their stuff is just too goofy and weird for the sake of being weird to me. Even for prog standards. ------------- 
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Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 16:54
I would say if you have heard of the band Kansas, pretty good chance you also have heard of Carry on Wayward Son. That song, also is listed as a Progressive Rock/ Hard Rock under genre. The question may be why is Kansas not seen as a Progressive Rock band by some. Is it because they are popular? Is it because they are accessible? Is it because they are an American band? Three of the most popular songs from Kansas, Carry on Wayward Son, Dust in the Wind and Point of Know Return musically have many elements associated with Progressive Rock. The lyric content is something that would be found in Prog. In comparison are songs like I've Seen All Good People, Lucky Man and Aqualung, to name 3 songs that receive radio play on Classic Rock stations from certified Prog Rock Bands, more "Proggy" than the three songs I listed from Kansas? As far as Magma and their influence, I know Steven Wilson and Michael Akerfeldt are fans. Obviously they are influential in the Zeuhl genre of Prog. My question is what major band has Magma had a big direct influence because, I honestly don't know? Kansas influence maybe larger in other genres of music, but we do know that the band has a number Prog artists who are fans of Kansas. It could be that Kansas has more influence in the U.S. and Magma more so in Europe. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 17:34
I agree that the general level of ratings is higher on PA than RYM but still, the highest ratings of Prog albums on RYM are a lot more than Kansas' 3.66-67, and for the classics look like:
WYWH - 4.33, ItCotCK - 4.32, TDSotM - 4.23, Animals - 4.18, Red - 4.24, CttE - 4.16, Larks' Tongues - 4.02, SEbtP - 4.00, TaaB - 4.00, Foxtrot - 3.97, Mirage - 3.97, Meddle - 3.97, The Lamb - 3.96, Fragile - 3.94, Moving Pictures - 3.92, Pawn Hearts - 3.92, Sheherazade and Other Stories - 3.92, Godbluff - 3.90, In the Land of Grey and Pink - 3.90, SM's Third - 3.90, One Size Fits All - 3.90, Aqualung - 3.89, Rock Bottom - 3.88. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 18:33
I don't know about that unless you are either brand new to prog or a very casual prog fan who doesn't know much beyond the big six. If we changed your statement to "you could be a fan of rock and still not have heard of Magma etc" then I would definitely agree with you. Magma headlined the North East Art Rock Festival (Nearfest) twice. They couldn't have done that if they weren't pretty well known in prog circles.
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Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 19:20
The difference between PA and RYM rating of Kansas's Leftoverture is .56 (PA 4.23 RYM 3.67). When comparing PA to RYM ratings there is a greater difference between Genesis Foxtrot rating (.64), Selling England by the Pound (.65) and Jethro Tull TAAB (.64) than with Leftoverture. A quick look shows there are a number of classic Prog albums that are rated on RYM lower than Kansas's Leftoverture, Point of Know Return and Song for America. That includes Yes's Going for the One and Tales from Topographic Oceans, all of ELP's studio run of albums from their debut album to BSS and Genesis's Wind and Wuthering. Not saying I necessarily agree with that. Still, Kansas has three albums that rate high enough to be recommended on RYM. Leftoverture and Point of Know Return are classics in the Prog Rock genre and also what has become known as Classic Rock. Song for America, especially for a fan of Symphonic Prog, is essential. I don't know if RYM is better at rating Prog Albums than PA. I would need to know the demographics, biases (genres and bands), what is the process for rating albums, how are outliers treated, etc from RYM. It seems on the surface, that major pop artists, if Taylor Swift and Garth Brooks are any indication, don't fare well. I'm certain if the Swifties were notified of the rating injustices done to Swift on RYM they would make sure to change that. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 22:52
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 22:58
Kansas are not like Styx, they have superior songwriting and performance, even skill if you ask me. Just because you didn't hear of them, that did not mean others did not appreciate them. I had three of their albums back in the 90s, listened to them all the time.  |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 28 2024 at 23:05
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^ My comparison wasn't meant as comparing them musically - as in quality (which I think I made quite obvious in the next sentence) but as two proggy AOR-bands that had radio hits and were million sellers in the US - while relatively unkown in Europe. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 00:56
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About Kansas ratings on PA, it's not like they're matching topbands', either. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 02:27
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clearly Kansas did more for mainstream prog's notoriety, but Magma is much more important - though it isn't mainstream prog at all. (function(){var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'84d070f4b99c5c0e',t:'MTcwNjUyMDQ2Ni45ODcwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();< height="1" width="1" style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: none; visibility: ;">
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------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Criswell
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 07:52
| I continue trying, but I just cannot get into Magma... |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 09:07
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 09:19
 I don't see how the Kansas album covers are corny.  Also corny covers is just as subjective as elegant covers, it's all subjective, isn't it?!
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 09:26
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Maybe it's corny because corn is Kansas' main export  Methinks it is more the Kansas logo Saper was aiming than the actual artworks. Can't say I appreciate the band's sleeves, except for the amazing Monolith. That inner & outer gatefold sleeve prompted me to write sci-fi novellas that have been long lost (probably thankfully so
Maybe not back in the 70's in France (though I can't imagine Dust In The Wind not scoring airtime), but both bands still get much airplay today on Belgium's state-owned Classic Rock 21 station and when both come to tour (twice together in the last decade) they +/- sell out their shows. Maybe not household appliance names, but classic rock fans know them quite well on the old continent . (function(){var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'84d2dc524ed691ff',t:'MTcwNjU0NTgzNi4wOTMwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();< height="1" width="1" style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: none; visibility: ;">
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 09:28
Maybe not exactly, but I surely find it cool. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 09:52
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Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 11:15
Depends what you mean by top bands. In the symphonic category, the subgenre of Progressive Rock that is probably the most popular style of Prog, Leftoverture is #21 and Point of Know Return #30. Leftoverture is rated above ELP's BSS, Trilogy, and Tarkus, Genesis's Trespass and Wind and Wuthering, Renaissance's Turn of the Cards, Yes's Going for the One and Tales from Topographic Oceans and Rick Wakeman's Six Wives of Henry the Eighth. Those are highly regarded albums from some of the Big Boys. If you are saying it's not rated above above Close to the Edge, Foxtrot, Dark Side of the Moon, Thick as a Brick, Moving Pictures, Red, Octopus, etc, well those are the creme of the crop. Not many albums are ahead of those albums. My understanding is that any album that has a score over 4 on PA is considered an excellent album. Kansas has 4 studio albums that have a rating above 4. |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 12:28
Quite a few bands that could fall in the category of only being big in their home country and not anywhere else. Of course, because of the size of the USA, a band could be popular regionally but, not in another region of the States. Certainly there are examples of bands being more popular outside their own country. One that comes to mind is Foghat, an English rock band who couldn't be picked out of a lineup in their home country but had 6 gold albums, one platinum and one 2x platinum album in the United States. If you're going to hit it big in just one market, the US would be the one to do it in. As far as the album art, it is all subjective. My friends and I thought Leftoverture and Point of Know Return was rather good. Just like Roger Dean covers found on Yes and Uriah Heep albums. ELP's BSS and the covers on the Boston and Meat Loaf albums were cool too.And being a history buff, I quite like the Tragic Prelude scene with the abolitionist John Brown on Kansas's debut album. But, what did we know, we were just teenagers. I sense a dig with the American AOR label you tossed out at Kansas and Styx (and by extension others) only being big in the USA (usually those bands found success in Canada too). I refer you to Foghat above. I'm sure they were fine being just hitting it big in just the USA. For most bands if there was one market to break it in it would be the USA. To be fair to Styx, they did have some success in Europe. Cornerstone went gold in Germany. Paradise Theater received a silver certification in the UK. Paradise Theater and Kilroy was Here reached #21 and #7 on the German album charts. Those two albums charted in the top 10 in Sweden and Norway. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 12:39
| I'm just curious if any other bands sing in the Kobaïan language. If not, is the creation of that language significant to prog? Is there a Kobaïan dictionary? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 13:08
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^ There have been a number of sites with Kobaïan dictionaries (some more complete than others). https://genius.com/Magma-kobaian-dictionary-annotated" rel="nofollow - https://genius.com/Magma-kobaian-dictionary-annotated That said, Vander used that for the way it sounds for the music (he also has an appreciation for scat, the vocals I mean, not the other kind of scat). He wanted to use the Kobaïan vocals to be focused on more as an instrumental device than a literary one. That said, Magma is still very concept based and has a mythology. I don't know of other bands that used Vander's, but various bands have used made-up languages/ phoenetics: Sigur Rós, and Koenji Hayakkei which while not a clone was created by Tatsuya Yoshida as a tribute to Zeuhl (the music of Magma). I would say that creativity, thinking outside of common expectations and conventions, is significant to Prog, and the approaches of Magma's influenced many bands and musicians, not just included in Zeuhl. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 13:11
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 13:55
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 15:30
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^Billy is awesome. I'm sure we could list plenty of European artists that torture you. Never thought I owned the world. Do you? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 15:58
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I mentioned Tatsuya Yoshida (a well-known Japanese artist in Prog circles) as being influenced by Magma before, and in fact Magma had a significant impact on Japan. Yesterday I prepared for my son's birthday party (he just turned 17). We had many of his friends over at our house. His girlfriend is of Japanese heritage and speaks fluent Japanese, and one of his best friends is an exchange student over here from Japan. I worked in Japan and like the chance to speak with people in Japanese (but my Japanese is not great). I asked his male friend in Japanese if he has heard of Magma, and he paused and then answered "Hhaï". So cool! However, I do realise that he probably meant something like "Hai" as in "Yes, I have heard of molten rock" instead of referring to the name of a song and a live album by Magma.... I really did ask him hoping to make the joke at some time here (that's PA forum dedication for you). |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 16:08
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Kansas was (is) a 'radio friendly' prog(ish) band that ticked many of the prog flavour boxes. But, and even though I'm not a huge fan, Magma may well be the definition of 'progressive' given their innovative presentation of the music they perform. I don't really understand why this is so close right now. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 16:21
| ^^Don't know if you know this, Greg. When Rush toured in Japan in the 80's, Neil tried to break up a domestic fight between a female and a tattooed male. No Japanese folks helped Neil because a tattooed male, they later found out, was a gang member and no locals wanted to get involved. Rush never played in Japan after this incident. Don't know if it's still like that in Japan, but that's deplorable. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 16:35
If we want to define 'progressive' music Allan Holdsworth's solo projects should receive the gold medal. But most here don't agree. It's nice to see Kansas is holding on.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 16:53
Yeah, I heard something about that years ago, although I did not know that Peart had actually intervened rather than witnessed from the hotel. I might have thought that it was because of fear of the Yakuza or some gang (due to the tattoos) but I had heard it posited that it was spousal abuse (not heard how that was known or inferred). There is this sort of custom of not interfering with others and keeping to yourself. I was living and working in more of a country and suburban area as a teacher, rather than a place like Tokyo which is more known for dangerous figures, but even on my travels I never felt safer anywhere and I never observed any violence or even shouting matches or any altercations that I recall. My girlfriend and I would walk around late at night going to all sorts of places that I would be wary of where I live (and I live in an affluent neighbourhood). I did notice preferential treatment for men, by the way, which was win for me, but I did not like it. Of course bad things can happen anywhere where people do not intervene, and I have witnessed similar things happen here in Vancouver. I have intervened a number of times (physically, which is super dangerous and I have been hurt, and more often by calling 911 and shouting at them). My wife got felt up on a very crowded train in Tokyo, but the man was not even Japanese. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 18:12
|
An interesting discussion with interesting thoughts. Thanks all. I will vote for Magma as not only is there a subgenre based on it with bands that were influenced by it and it is well-known in Prog circles, but also because of its very progressive/ innovative/ creative nature. It has had a very significant impact on Prog, and I think that the creativity itself is very significant. Kansas, however, is very significant to classic rock, hard rock, AOR and commercial/ corporate rock as well as to US Prog/Pomp Rock. I do think you could sensibly/ rationally choose either one depending on the angle. In the immortal words of Christian Kerry Vander-Livgren Düst ïn hündïn! All wï arr ïss düst in hündïn All Kobaïa ïss düst in hündïn Everything Kobaïa ïss düst da hündïn |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 22:01
I don't think I - or you own the world. And I don't know why you ask. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 29 2024 at 23:08
I'm suprised too, and I definitely don't think of it as giving credit where credit should be given. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 00:34
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Depends on which side of the Atlantic one lives, methinks. I vote Magma, though I won't deny the significance of Kansas. ------------- 
|
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 04:42
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I'm a Magma fan and I haven't got much attention to Kansas, but basing on what I have heard (Leftoverture and few songs here and there) I think I have to wait and listen more before voting as I like what I've heard. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 07:05
 ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 07:07
Are you applauding yourself?! Hi, Narcissus, how are you today?
|
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 07:27
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That is very egocentric way of thinking, Cristi.  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 07:30
Yes, you seem to be egocentric, applauding your own post and constantly quoting yourself (despite being told by the admins to stop doing that). You've also created a thread praising your own threads. And I am problematic?!. Sure! |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 08:09
|
But you might be right here that I applauded my post praising Magma, besides calling on others to give Magma the credits, they deserve in my opinion. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 08:14
Magma surely deserves all the love they get. But so does Kansas in their own way. A strange pairing in the poll, definitely.
|
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 08:45
| ^ Yes, it's an interesting pairing. Magma had more impact in terms of progressing music as a form of art, surely they were hugely influential on many prog artists even if they would not name Magma as an influence. On the other hand Kansas were massively influential on a number of high-profile prog artists, albeit in a more "conventional" way. Can't pick a winner! |
Posted By: Tychovski
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 09:31
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I prefer Magma, but Kansas drew in more outsiders. ------------- Everyone knows rock attained perfection in 1974, it's a scientific fact. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 11:06
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A reason why I thought of this is because often when talking about the big ten or twelve of Prog, both Kansas' name (I have seen this a great deal) and Magma's name come up. I would sooner put Magma there, but others would sooner put Kansas. It does depend on your perspective/angle and one's location and interests can factor into it. Both bands have been considered very important from their countries of origin. Both have been influential. Both have had a significant effect on Prog and on Prog audiences. While this is not asking which style you prefer, I would say that both do have similarities at times. For a preference battle, these two lives from their first issued live albums could be fun to compare (not very similar, but the violin): |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 11:22
Grumpyprogfan, Holdsworth is certainly a musician that I think of as progressive in the truest sense of the word. Earlier one poster talked about Magma's outsized influence. In a prior post, I asked is there a major artist or band that Magma has heavily influenced, because honestly, I don't know. I know Steven Wilson is a fan, but I don't see that much of an influence on his music. In comparison, Holdsworth is a perfect example of someone having an outsized influence beyond his popularity in terms of album sales or the general music public. Eddie Van Halen, Alex Lifeson and John Petrucci are major artists who have pointed to Holdsworth as being a major influence on their playing and music. Other well regarded artists who either acknowledged admiration and/ or his influence in informing their playing include Frank Zappa, Steve Vai, Neil Schon, Joe Satriani, Frank Gambale, Guthrie Govan, Jennifer Batten, Ty Tabor, Vernon Reid and Gary Moore. Other musicians who are not guitarist who mention Holdsworth's influence on their music include Jean Luc Ponty, Bill Bruford and Chad Wackerman. As far as the greater significance on Prog, I see Zeuhl as more of a minor subgenre of Prog than say Symphonic, Crossover, Prog Metal, etc at least when measuring strictly in terms of popularity or influence beyond its subgenre. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 12:08
Similarily to some others, I'd say, Magma and Kansas represent two very opposite sides of Prog: the very experimenting/progressive one and the one rather close to mainstream Rock. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 12:18
|
I would say that Magma influenced many major artists, but major in terms of artists that those really into Prog would know. Surely Tatsuya Yoshida is very significant Japanese artist and his band Kōenji Hyakkei was something of a direct tribute to Magma. Art Zoyd, which is one of the core RIO bands, was influenced by Magma. Eskaton has been a well-loved band by many here as well as Dun and various others were influenced by Magma. I think it very significant that we have robust category of bands inspired by Magma. If you mean big name commercial artists, well not that I know, but I would say that Magma influenced many who are very significant to many into the less commercial kinds of progressive rock. Kansas influenced many, but I don't know how many of those are considered really important to progressive music by large numbers of Prog listeners and Prog artists. For those into Avant Prog, I would expect Magma to be a huge name. Magma has headlined various festivals, and when I went to see them in Vancouver on their big tour some years ago, there were plenty of people at the club, but it was hardly a stadium. Magma is more of a cult band than Kansas and is much more out there. Like interstellar out there... By the way, I had never heard of Steven WIlson until I started delving into Prog. |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 12:51
I would think that if you listen to classic rock radio, wherever that might be, you probably know more than one song from Journey and Boston. As far as these AOR bands not having much success beyond the Anglosphere ( assuming you mean US, Canada and to lesser extent Britain and Australia) that depends. Could say that about any genre of music where some artists have international success and some just successful domestically. But here are a few of the big AOR artists: Journey: 3 Gold and 1 Platinum certified albums in Japan. Toto: Japan ( 2 Gold / 1 Platinum); Germany ( 1 Gold / 1 Platinum); Sweden ( 1 Gold / 1 Platinum); Netherlands ( 2 Platinum); Finland (1 Gold) Foreigner: Germany ( 2 Platinum / 1 Gold); France ( 2 Gold) Of course for a band to have an album be certified, an artist/ label has to request it. Many don't ( there are reasons for this, a big one being cost) Some of these bands popularity go beyond whether they have a certified gold or platinum album. Cheap Trick, for example, was very popular in Japan, yet not one album of theirs has been certified. David Bowie was a huge international artist, sold 140 million albums worldwide but, if you went strictly by his certification of albums it would suggest he had far fewer albums sold and was only really popular in the US, UK and Canada, which we know is not true. |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 14:05
Logan, And what you just posted is my point. I don't want to downplay the innovation of Magma's music. It is more innovative than what Kansas was playing. But, is Magma more significant in the world of Prog in the grand scheme of things. That is a different question. Symphonic (Yes, Genesis, Emerson Lake and Palmer, Kansas), Crossover ( Supertramp, Peter Gabriel, Kate Bush, Moody Blues), Heavy Prog ( Rush, Porcupine Tree, Mars Volta, Uriah Heep), Prog Metal ( Dream Theater, Queensryche, Symphony X, Fates Warning) are subgenres of Progressive Rock that are significant because of their popularity. These bands sold 10s of millions of records, sold out arenas and headlined major festivals. These bands had appeal beyond Progressive Rock. It's because of these bands and the subgenre of Prog they played, why Prog is a significant genre in the world of rock music. Many of these bands are considered Classic Rock so their music will be played well into future. These bands and individual artists have influenced others beyond the world of Prog. Steve Howe, for example, not only influenced Steve Morse and Alex Lifeson, but John Frusciante ( Red Hot Chilli Peppers) and Tom Bukovac (A list Nashville session guitarist). We know Rush's influence goes far beyond the Prog Rock world. These artists have drawn in people into the world of Prog that otherwise may not have been so inclined. Supertramp, Kansas, Pink Floyd, etc have been gateway bands into the world of Prog. Without these bands and the subgenre of Prog they play, Progressive Rock would be just an asterisk in Rock history. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 15:02
Cheers 🍻 |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 30 2024 at 21:05
| As always the definition of what you think prog is and should be is key. Kansas sound like prog but Magma were likely the more 'progressive' (as I said earlier I don't listen to them). Kansas were deadly safe and never pushed a single boundary and arguably added very little to the genre. They also better fitted the definition 'Crossover' after only the first couple of albums leaving pure symphonic behind and going in a more radio friendly direction by about 1976/7. However am I more likely to listen to Kansas and shell out serious money on triple vinyl for them? Of course I am and I did! |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: January 31 2024 at 03:54
May I advise you to get some psychiatric or psychoanalytic treatment for your narcissism? It is going beyond the limits of decency. As is your continuing to reply to your own posts. ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: January 31 2024 at 04:16
|
So, I'm looking at this at a different angle (the OP said we could approach this in this manner). There is no doubt that Kansas fits the role of a "gateway" band that attracted people to prog. I'm not going to argue against that because I believe it to be true, nor am I interested in arguing about album sales. What I want to know is how influential were they within the prog umbrella, musically. Magma is easier to figure out. To gauge the influence Magma has, all one needs to do is count the number of bands on Prog Archives listed in the Zeuhl subgenre. If I counted correctly, and leave out Magma, Christian Vander, and Jannick Top, that totals 74 different bands and artists. This doesn't include bands (such as Le Grand Sbam) filed under RIO/Avant that have taken influences from Magma. Maybe one of the RIO/Avant experts can chime in on what percentage of bands filed under RIO/Avant carry Magma influences? So the question to ponder is, how many bands has Kansas influenced within prog? In all honesty, I find it hard to come up with 70+ bands, and of the few mentioned on the first page, I find that their influences from Kansas are diluted by many other influences. On a side note, concerning Kansas and Styx. Both bands were dealing with two factions within their line-ups. Folks that wanted to make prog, and folks that just wanted to rock. Kansas was definitely the better of the two bands, but even their classic albums are dotted with shorter radio-friendly rock songs. Kansas could have been so much better if the symphonic prog side of that equation had won out (the same with Styx). I suppose it's a moot point since both bands took paths to full-blown pop/AOR by the time the 1980s arrived, if not earlier. But this similarity between the two bands seemed like it was missing in the earlier conversation, unless my reading comprehension skills have failed me again. And another side note. It's too bad I don't have a TARDIS so that I could go back in time and push the case to have a field added to the PA database to record influences for each band on the site. Then we would have data to show which bands had the most impact on prog (again, musically speaking). EDIT: Sorry, I forgot my usual line of gibberish at the end. Grab your cochleae. There are toothbrushes over the hill!
------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: January 31 2024 at 07:10
| ^I'm not familiar with Zeuhl, but I don't believe all 74 bands mentioned in the Zeuhl subgenre on PA were influenced by Magma. That would be similar to me saying all bands in the Heavy Prog subgenre are influenced by Rush. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: January 31 2024 at 08:54
What can I say? I've been exposed to soo much from you, so posts like this one don't suprise me anymore, but I don't think, it's good for PA's reputation.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 31 2024 at 09:21
We should strive, and by we I definitely mean me, to put on a more civil and friendly face. To be an attractive forum, it should seem welcoming and I think tolerant. Advising others is good, but done tactfully is best.
The analogy does not compel me. It's very clear that Rush did not influence many in Heavy Prog, and in fact my favourite Heavy Prog generally came out before Rush even began. Magma had many musicians who came and went and created their own bands/albums and worked with other bands as an influence, which is one reason why Zeuhl became so robust. And those would play with others and bring in that influence. Quite a few are in Japan (often bands with the same stables of musicians), but you find Italy and a variety of places. I think any bands with no Magma influence in Zeuhl would be outliers (I don't know of any) and I know there a lot of bands inspired by Magma that are not in PA, and you'll find Magma influenced ones in Zeuhl, RIO and Avant Prog, Eclectic and Folk. I used to be a Zeuhl completest. There are so many Magma related acts, and stables of musicians who worked together inspired by Magma. One question might be, how many acts that did not have musicians that worked with/alongside Magma can be found in Zeuhl? Some not included in Zeuhl here off the top of my head (I have not double-checked): Art Zoyd Vortex Heldon Kultivator Birds and Buildings Chrome Hoof Shamblemaths, I think Johnny Rotten, by the way, has stated his appreciation for Magma (he admires a lot of the same music that I do), as well as Mikael Åkerfeldt of Opeth and Steven Wilson and Travis Ryan of Cattle Decapitation (I liked their last album). And Jeff, just in case it was not clear to any, I was not posting to disagree with you but to share my own angles of interest while using your thoughts as a springboard. I deliberately made this so one could approach the question in a variety of ways and share opinions based on variety of frameworks of which one conceives. I was interested to see which approaches people come up with as well as the conversation. I genuinely appreciate all here for their takes on the question.
|
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 31 2024 at 10:23
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^ I didn't check, but I don't think there are any former Magma members in: Guapo Archaïa Shub Niggurath Dün Rahmann Ruins Koenji Hyakkei Happy Family Bondage Fruit Corima Vak Noa Runaway Totem
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 31 2024 at 10:37
| ^ Thanks so much. And how I could forgot Guapo as one of the bands not included in Zeuhl with a definite Magma influence? It's one of the great "modern" bands. And it was very talked about band here. And Rahmann, in JRF as I recall, is a favourite of mine. I really like all of those. I had thought Noa was in the direct Magma camp through a musician, but now looking it up, I really just don't know, ah umm, yeah. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 01 2024 at 14:40
I wouldn't mind to have as good relation with you as we had it about two years ago. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: February 01 2024 at 14:54
You've taken my words out of context. I was being sarcastic.
|
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 02 2024 at 04:13
Something else, this thread is about Magma and Kansas, and not my person. So was my applauding post, as I explained it to Cristi. You have referred many times in a negative way to my person instead of the topic, which are obvious violations of the PA rules, and I want you to stop it. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: February 02 2024 at 06:48
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More significant to avant and Zeuhl - Magma. More significant to symphonic and crossover - Kansas. Marillion could have been thrown in too but they would be most significant to neo.
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 02 2024 at 07:02
| ^ Tangerine Dream would be another that I would like to consider (amongst many others) |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 02 2024 at 07:32
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: February 02 2024 at 08:27
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 02 2024 at 09:00
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^That's fine and I don't care for Kansas, but that's completely irrelevant as arguments in this discussion. |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: February 02 2024 at 21:53
I think most would agree that Symphonic Prog was past its artistic peak by 74 but, the 76-78 period was Symphonic Prog's commercial peak. That is borne out by album sales and the size of the tours that took place during that time. As for your second comment about if there was no Magma there would be no Zeuhl and if Kansas hadn't existed nothing much would have changed. The snarky side of me would respond that if Zeuhl didn't exist, then there would be 500 less people listening to Prog vs millions less people listening to Prog if Kansas didn't exist. But, I will not be snarky. By the way, why is Crossover Prog a silly PA-invention? |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 03 2024 at 00:44
|
^ Yes, but more than snarky, it would also be wrong. Good for you
that you decided not to. The world of Zeuhl and the influence and legacy
of Magma (also outside of Zeuhl) is much bigger than you seem to be
aware of. Crossover Prog is a subgenre that
doesn't exist outside of PA, containing bands that would either be
thought of as Art Rock or just plain Progressive Rock elsewhere. A dumb
and unnecessary idea. Which is why it hasn't caught on elsewhere. But
more importantly I'm still not convinced Kansas are - or were very a
particularly influential band for Prog. Too late and too little music of
relevance that people/bands into Prog hadn't heard already. Bohemian Rhapsody ...which Carry On Wayward Son
obviously owes a lot to - is probably more significant to later
"light-prog"-bands than Kansas' complete discography. A lot of people
that listen to Kansas have no idea that they are listening to
Progressive Rock. The main reason is that is for a lot of the listening
time, they aren't listening to Progressive Rock.
|
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: February 03 2024 at 13:19
Actually, Crossover Prog is a term that does exist outside of PA. Spotify, Bandcamp, last.fm, Musicalyst, as well as other sites dedicated to Progressive Rock use the term Crossover Prog as a subgenre. It just appears that its a subgenre you don't care for. Do you think Zeuhl should exist as a subgenre? You stated that Crossover Prog artists should be listed as Art Rock or just Progressive Rock. Could the same not be said of Zeuhl? Why not classify all as either Progressive Rock or not. Prog rock is a big umbrella. The subgenre just helps further define the type of Prog Rock someone might be listening to. As for these groups like Kansas, Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, ELP, Pink Floyd, Supertramp, Rush, etc it is because of these groups that Prog Rock is considered a major genre of music in Rock history. These bands come from the most popular subgenres of Progressive Rock. And those who pay any attention to these things most associate Prog to symphonic Prog which is tied to bands like Genesis, Yes, ELP and Kansas. If not for these bands, Prog Rock would be an asterisk in Rock history. Zeuhl may be innovative, but it did not / does not much move the needle in Prog Rocks popularity among the average listener. As for the average listener not associating Kansas or bands like that as Prog that's hardly convincing. Most listeners don't get into the weeds like the members here on PA. I could put on Miles Davis's Kind of Blue, Dave Brubeck's Take Five, John Coltrane's Giant Steps or Kenny G's Breathless and the average listener will identify those albums as just Jazz and could not tell you what subgenre they belong to. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 03 2024 at 22:33
| It seems to come down to small fish in a big pond (Kansas) versus a big fish in a small pond (Magma). There is no objective winner. Kansas were an excellent band with a broader appeal but then being English speaking helps them massively. It depends what you value more. If we are talking US bands then arguably Chicago are more important than Kansas as they were right there at the beginning and could hold their end up against the mighty UK bands , playing some of the biggest festivals that were around at the time. Both were eventually swallowed up by AOR/Corporate Rock the fate of far too many US bands it seems (Styx, Foreigner, Boston etc) |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: February 03 2024 at 23:34
I can agree with much you posted here. Chicago was a phenomenally talented band with several of their members pursuing music degrees in college. Walter Parazaider received a Bachelor's Degree in Classical Performance at DePaul University. James Pankow, Robert Lamm, Danny Seraphine and Lee Loughnane were also pursuing music degrees in College. Robert Lamm in an interview considered themselves a Prog Rock band and stated Yes, King Crimson and Genesis inspired them and provided a template to perform longer form pieces. Lamm stated "There’s nothing I like more than going into a record store and finding our back catalogue filed in the prog section, alongside greats such as Yes and Genesis.” Chicago's early material is truly progressive. They were just approaching it from a different angle, drawing more on Jazz and Blues and using a horn section. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: February 04 2024 at 00:57
You're probably right.
But AOR Kansas was miles better than AOR Chicago. Even Drastic Measures is more listenable (for me) than anything Chicago did in the 80s and beyond. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 04 2024 at 04:16
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: February 04 2024 at 06:36
I'm a much bigger Magma fan versus Kansas but have to agree most of this and as such can't separate them on influence. Voting both. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: February 04 2024 at 07:15
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 04 2024 at 07:59
|
Hi, It's a choice that I would rather not make ... I do not dislike KANSAS at all, but musically (for me) they are not that interesting, or challenging. The average listener will get Kansas, easily enough, but that same person will likely have a hard time with Magma. Magma belongs to a category that the American media has destroyed for 60 years ... the kind of material that is totally different and difficult to explain, and this is where Kansas gets more fans ... the lyrics and the easy listening to the music makes it OK. The experimental music scene in America is not appreciated much, and it has taken the Internet 20 to 30 years to help make it possible for American musicians to start doing their own different stuff and material ... you can not find it (look at Mike's listings of Album of the Year) as easily as you can in Europe, that has a huge history of MUSIC and its changes ... something that Americans do not enjoy or appreciate ... or at least the media makes us believe we're not smart enough to make our own choices and have to listen to the "classics" ... The sad thing is ... if Miles were up today, the majority of "progressive" fans here would trash him for being selfish and just doing his own thing ... I think we would end up saying things like he abuses the privilege of the solo by trashing it senseless ... and I for one love it! But, reading some of the bits and pieces here on this board once in a while ... it's like ... "meandering"? ... too much filler ... and comments that pretty much say that a composer has no vision and can not see anything beyond his notes and compositions ... which of course, is ridiculous and insane, and only a poor/bad listener would really think that ... or at least a top of the pops listener that might have a hard time getting past 4 minutes without a format! In the sense of innovation and creativity, the work that Magma has put forth in 50 plus years is far more valuable and important than a well known radio song made by the American FM radio waves of the 70's. And of course, that one song is now a part of the "classics" that those same FM station now play after the great American FM Radio rape! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: February 04 2024 at 09:58
No you are wrong and I'm right, since you seem so sure of yourself. The average listener as to someone who doesn't really listen to jazz would not know which one is more significant to the history of jazz. Kenny G's album actually went Diamond. Now, someone with a passing interest in Jazz would say Brubeck, Davis and Coltrane are much more significant. The average listener of music, I would say no. In fact the average music listener's only Jazz album might be a Kenny G album. You don't have to like it. I don't really like it, but that's the way it is. |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: February 04 2024 at 10:55
|
[QUOTE=moshkito] Hi, It's a choice that I would rather not make ... I do not dislike KANSAS at all, but musically (for me) they are not that interesting, or challenging. The average listener will get Kansas, easily enough, but that same person will likely have a hard time with Magma. Magma belongs to a category that the American media has destroyed for 60 years ... the kind of material that is totally different and difficult to explain, and this is where Kansas gets more fans ... the lyrics and the easy listening to the music makes it OK. The experimental music scene in America is not appreciated much, and it has taken the Internet 20 to 30 years to help make it possible for American musicians to start doing their own different stuff and material ... you can not find it (look at Mike's listings of Album of the Year) as easily as you can in Europe, that has a huge history of MUSIC and its changes ... something that Americans do not enjoy or appreciate ... or at least the media makes us believe we're not smart enough to make our own choices and have to listen to the "classics" ... The sad thing is ... if Miles were up today, the majority of "progressive" fans here would trash him for being selfish and just doing his own thing ... I think we would end up saying things like he abuses the privilege of the solo by trashing it senseless ... and I for one love it! But, reading some of the bits and pieces here on this board once in a while ... it's like ... "meandering"? ... too much filler ... and comments that pretty much say that a composer has no vision and can not see anything beyond his notes and compositions ... which of course, is ridiculous and insane, and only a poor/bad listener would really think that ... or at least a top of the pops listener that might have a hard time getting past 4 minutes without a format! In the sense of innovation and creativity, the work that Magma has put forth in 50 plus years is far more valuable and important than a well known radio song made by the American FM radio waves of the 70's. And of course, that one song is now a part of the "classics" that those same FM station now play after the great American FM Radio rape! [/QUOTand Moshkito, Just because a song is "challenging" from a listening point of view for the average listener and "interesting" for those who like music that is more abstract using more dissonance, odd meters, etc doesn't necessarily make it better (Pat Metheny's Zero Tolerance for Silence as an example. It's not good). Vice versa is true too. Also, at least in the 70s, it's not like Kansas was playing straight ahead pop music. Carry on Wayward Son is liked by millions of people who have diverse musical interests because it's a good song. It's not like it's a straight forward pop song. Rick Beato has a great breakdown of Carry on Wayward Son on " What Makes This Song Great." Fairly simple songs can be great songs too. In the movie Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Ego when taking to his son Quill states Looking Glass' Brandy ( You're A Fine Girl) might be Earth's greatest composition. Quill agreed. I'm inclined to agree too. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: February 04 2024 at 12:15
|
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: February 04 2024 at 13:10
You and your Dad are two people. That statistically means nothing. To many, Kenny G is the real deal. If not, why did so many people buy his albums? Smooth Jazz sells. I know many Jazz purists do not care for smooth Jazz. Of course, there were some hardcore Jazz purists who did not care for Cool Jazz, which is generally a respected genre of Jazz. If I remember correctly, Kenny G is the greatest selling Jazz artist. Not a fan of his music and generally don't care for Smooth Jazz. But, it is a very popular genre of Jazz. |