Stargazer vs Achilles Last Stand
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Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=135164
Printed Date: July 20 2025 at 12:20
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Topic: Stargazer vs Achilles Last Stand
Posted By: Derek50
Subject: Stargazer vs Achilles Last Stand
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 03:42
| Friends, I suggest comparing these two songs. Tell me, which one do you personally like more? |
Replies:
Posted By: Derek50
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 03:45
| For me personally, this is definitely Achilles. This is LZ's best work. Page's guitar parts are just insane and Bonzo plays like a god. Considering the conditions in which the album was recorded, the guys simply created a masterpiece. And yes, in this particular case, Page's solo surpasses Blackmore's solo in Stargazer |
Posted By: Octopus II
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 03:46
Stargazer 
|
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 04:07
|
Of course they are both masterworks. Achilles drives and Stargazer grooves. I love a good groove, and the latter one is both catchier and more addictive to me. Without taking anything into consideration, and not putting two amazing guitar solos up against each other, like it was some sort of competition: Stargazer for me. All that said, I got quite a few Led Zeppelin songs I love more - No Quarter, for instance. While Stargazer is by far my favorite Rainbow track. |
Posted By: Derek50
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 04:23
| Friends, is there a way to attach a vote to a topic? If so, tell me how? |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 05:09
Press: New Poll, write: "Stargazer vs Achilles Last Stand" in Subject, write: "which one do you personally like more?" as Poll Question - and write the two songs in question as Poll-choice 1 & 2. -and maybe "For me personally, this is definitely Achilles etc... in "message" - and finaly, press: Post New Topic:) |
Derek50 wrote:Posted By: Derek50
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 05:53
| Unfortunately, I don't have the rights to create polls at this stage((( |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 06:31
| ^Right. I don't mind creating it for you - if you'd like? |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 06:59
|
Achilles here. Presence is my fave Zep album these days. In some ways, their most cohesive and unified sounding. An album that seemed to be missed by a lot of people, even Zep fans. I've always been curious why that is. The time of release, the fact it didn't contain songs that became big on radio? I don't know. But when you listen to stuff like Achilles and Tea for One with great attention, they are remarkably well constructed and filled with passionate playing. It was a truly perfect "swan song" if you will, for me. I've disowned their next album from their canon. Just not up to par with the rest imo. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 09:04
|
Achilles Last Stand One of my favorite songs. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 10:04
|
Stargazer for sure. I like Achilles' but it's way tooooo repetititititive. Zep is not good in minimalism (Carouselambra is another good example)
Newcomers aren't allowed for a first few weeks ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 11:59
|
"Stargazer," by far! Rising is one of the best rock albums of the Seventies. Dio > Plant Blackmore > Page Powell > Bonham (yes, I went there) That particular Rainbow line-up's secret weapon was keyboardist Tony Carey, who Blackmore stupidly pissed off. Let's not forget the late Jimmy Bain, a rock-solid groover and rather underrated bassist in my book. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Steve Wyzard
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 12:58
| Achilles Last Stand! |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 15:11
|
Stargazer is good but kinda high school. Achilles' on the other hand is one of the finest examples of progressive hard rock on record. Complex, sophisticated, with great arranging and thoughtful lyrics. It was Page's "guitar army" come to life. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 15:37
I agree with this post! However, both are amazing songs! Daily Doug's analysis of Stargazer is well worth watching! https://youtu.be/vHPHMrjXSTg?si=6elKPY__1pNDSFSd" rel="nofollow - Daily Doug - Stargazer ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 19:00
|
Achilles Last Stand. It's the drums. Now, if we were talking about "A Light in the Black", I may vote differently, as I consider that the best song on Rainbow Rising. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 19:35
|
Why not make it a poll? I prefer Achilles. Stargazer is a bit overrated. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 20:27
|
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 20:28
|
Stargazer still makes the hairs on my arms stand up 40 odd years later, Achilles is great but Stargazer is still a monster for me personally. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 01 2025 at 22:13
It seems that both Paige and Blackmore were exploring that middle eastern flavour in their guitar playing. Both are my favourite tracks by those respective bands so hard to pick. There is also that awesome Knebworth version by LZ when festivals were interesting and not invaded by attention seeking rap artists  I'd cop out with both equally. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 00:09
I don't think newbies can create polls. |
Posted By: Derek50
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 02:07
|
Saperlipopette! Please attach the poll. We will vote. Thank you very much. |
Posted By: Derek50
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 02:19
| Achilles is the pinnacle...this is the peak of ZEPP. All 4 members gave it 100%. Page's guitar overdubs are simply superb. Nobody does that now. The song feels powerful, nerve. Jimmy's guitar cries and the solo just goes into the soul. A monumental composition...on the backbone of which Iron Maiden built their career. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 02:44
That can't be done. Also it seems polls can't be created in the Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge, I forgot about that. 
|
Posted By: Steve Wyzard
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 10:20
As much as I love Achilles Last Stand, the rest of Presence is frankly a huge disappointment. This album gets a free pass because Plant recorded his vocals sitting on a stool, recovering from an auto accident. I have a place in my heart for Hots on for Nowhere, but the rest of the album I can take or leave. In fact, I would even say that Candy Store Rock and Tea for One are some of the band's WORST material. In Through the Out Door > Presence |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 13:27
|
^ 'For Your Life' is a great little rocker, and 'Nobody's Fault but Mine' is one of their best blues tributes. I think for longtime Zepheads, it is overall a very satisfying album as well as a fascinating break from their typical fare. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 14:20
They're both pretty bad, IMHO, but Presence has at least three tracks I can like (Out Door doesn't): I kind of like Tea For Ne, Achilles is good, but drags on for 3 or 4 minutes too long. Nobody's Fault But Mine is definitely my fave on that album. It doesn't help that the Hypgnosis artwork is horrendous. Clearly in the line of the awesome Floyd's WYWH (with the 4 elements) and Bad Co's Desolation Angels (I think Zep turned down both projects). But then again, I didn't like much Graffiti either. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 14:41
He explained why he can't yet. 
Blasphemy. P.S. LZ is overrated. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 15:11
A1 Ten Years Gone A2 Trampled Under Foot A3 Bron-yr-Aur A4 In the Light 23:06 B1 Kashmir B2 Down by the Seaside B3 In My Time of Dying 25:05 -for me that would have been pretty much perfect (but maybe it would be better to kick things off with Trampled). |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 15:55
|
^ Nonsense, you've eliminated some of their best material--- Custard Pie, Wanton Song, Nightflight, Houses of the Holy, Black Country Woman... even In my Time is good if a bit maudlin. Phys Graf is really a Blues record with some synth stuff thrown in. But as it was recorded mostly in the Stones' mobile studio and has a ton of harmonica and craggy guitar, this was a very bluesy LP. You can almost hear the pops & cracks of an ancient bluesman's vinyl record revolving on an old turntable. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 16:15
|
Love "The Rover" too. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 02 2025 at 16:42
...I love In My Time... and that's why I included it. Edit: Yes, a lot of it |
Posted By: Derek50
Date Posted: July 03 2025 at 02:13
| Friends... but to me Achilles never seemed drawn out. These 10 minutes fly by in a flash. And in general Presence is somehow underestimated. Tea for one is the greatest blues of Page and is only slightly inferior to Sins)) |
Posted By: Derek50
Date Posted: July 09 2025 at 05:20
| The discussion has died down, or are there not enough Richie fans on the forum?))) |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 09 2025 at 06:41
|
Posted By: Derek50
Date Posted: July 10 2025 at 05:22
| And I have the opposite situation, Achilles in my humble opinion beats all the crap out of his opponent. Achilles is a powerful panoramic composition and it is in it that Paige jumped above his head, above his capabilities. And yes, Achilles does touch the strings of my soul....and Richie is cold and everything is by metronome for him )))) |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: July 10 2025 at 07:39
How is he "cold"?! Everything is by metronome?! I doubt that. He also played solos differently live. He could be quite playful. |
Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: July 10 2025 at 08:54
|
Stargazer for me.
|
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 10 2025 at 10:57
Nothing could be further from the truth.  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 10 2025 at 16:02
Not exactly: in this non-poll thread, Achilles leads comfortably 7 to 5. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 10 2025 at 22:56
Paige is good but never had the feeling that he was ever near Ritchie's ability. I've not really heard a better guitarist then Ritchie but sure he is technical in approach at times (maybe all the time but not sure) but I feel that he is communicating an idea ( I don't hear that with Paige at all) much like Steve Hackett used to do on things like Firth of Fifth for instance. It gets deep into your soul. Paige was just a decent blues guitarist raised higher being in a band with Bonzo (a drum monster) and the best vocalist of the rock era. IMO |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 10 2025 at 23:36
|
Page is misunderstood, a purposefully ragged player whose soulful approach is misinterpreted as sloppy & simplistic, and a far greater composer than any of his contemporaries such as Beck, Clapton, Hendrix, or Blackmore. It's a shame. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 11 2025 at 00:16
Hard disagree. In no era or timeline is Page better than either Blackmore or especially Beck. Forbes: Cooper: Oh yeah, who wouldn't want to interview Bob Dylan? I've never interviewed Bob Dylan. And the easiest one in the world would be Paul McCartney. He's the nicest person you've ever met in your life. I did a really good interview with Jeff Beck one time. In fact I said I look at it this way: Jimmy Page best rock and roll guitar player; Jimi Hendrix, most inventive guitar player; Eric Clapton best blues player; Jeff Beck, best guitar player. And he went, "Yeah, that's right." https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevebaltin/2020/04/05/qa-alice-cooper-on-his-new-podcast-guns-n-roses-jimmy-page-and-hanging-with-pink-floyd-in-1968/#79b0ee38789a" rel="nofollow - https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevebaltin/2020/04/05/qa-alice-cooper-on-his-new-podcast-guns-n-roses-jimmy-page-and-hanging-with-pink-floyd-in-1968/#79b0ee38789a ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 11 2025 at 02:56
|
^ They both agree Page is the best rock player, and basically they'd be right. I love both Beck & Hendrix but they don't approach Page's overall accomplishments. Besides, I said Page is a superior composer, and I stand by it. But frankly It's not a matter of "better", that completely misses the point. If you believe Blackmore trumps Page you must have grown up in a different universe. Are you a guitarist ? ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 11 2025 at 14:15
Alice punctuates the rundown by saying Jeff Beck is the best overall guitar player of the bunch. That's what he's getting at. And I agree. Beck had a fantastic career all the way up till he left us. Even when he made pop, he wasn't coasting. He went from strength to strength. If by Page's overall accomplishments, you mean album unit sales by way of Led Zeppelin and The Firm, I guess you may have a point. Hendrix died too young, and Beck veered into fusion (and I love every single bit of it). But while Page is exclusively a rock fan's guitarist, Beck's biggest fans are the musicians, and everyone else. I'm not trying to offend you, but I'm not into anything Page has done after the '70s. I can't say the same for guys like Beck, Blackmore, Rundgren, Fripp, Buck Dharma, Kerry Livgren, Tony Iommi, Todd Rundgren, Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, Ronnie Montrose...yes, really! If you've ever heard Ronnie's solo instrumental albums, e.g. Open Fire, The Diva Station, Mutatis Mutandis, etc., along with the first two by Gamma, you'll know what an underrated player and composer he is.
The universe my ears occupy, correct. Worry not, I've had friends who were hardcore LZ fans. One of them became a drummer thanks to John Bonham and (long before I met him) was dismayed when he realized he'd never get to see LZ because Bonham died, and the band was over. He got to see ELP in '77 (we both caught the Black Moon tour) and that's when he realized he wanted to be a serious musician (he loved Carl Palmer, yet Bonham was his primary influence).
Are you? ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 11 2025 at 15:07
Yep. Totally agree on that. My whole life "guitar people" have tried to explain why those other dudes are technically better players than Pagey. Maybe so. But those LZ songs he cowrote and arranged will haunt me (in a good way) till the moment I expire. None of the others come close to hitting the same place emotionally. That said, I don't question or belittle their technical mastery. I feel similarly about Garcia. Not many include him on their "best" list, but his playing always fills me with that thing that music should provide. I don't care if he's technically not Jeff Beck. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 11 2025 at 15:33
I posted that before he explained it. Doh! 
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 11 2025 at 15:46
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 11 2025 at 15:48
Good old Stumblefingers ! ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 11 2025 at 16:16
Sure; Henderson, Lane, Vai, Connors, Keneally, and so on, but my like for my favorites builds way more on style and sound than technique. But that's another topic. I'm sure all the guys we've mentioned could smoke Carlos Santana, but I love Carlos' playing!  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 11 2025 at 16:19
Nope. It's a few posts before yours. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 11 2025 at 16:23
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 12 2025 at 21:20
David, did you see the new LZ movie on Netflix? Lots of fun and some great clips and interviews. I only wish it kept going for each album. It only covers the first two. Jimmy has such a great memory for recounting how the songs were constructed. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 13 2025 at 01:35
|
^ No I didn't, sounds like a must-see. Thanks, Jim. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: July 19 2025 at 18:44
|
Achille's is terrific with an emphasis on the "riff" - it's a great start to a great album. ------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 19 2025 at 20:22
You bet. I finished watching the rest. It is cool. There's a touching scene where they uncovered a long-lost Bonham interview where he's talking about his new mates in the band and their personal qualities. They show each of the three listening today as they hear his thoughts about each of them that they probably haven't heard in decades. Little things like that in there as well as some music clips I haven't seen. Again, the only bummer is that it covers only the first two albums. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 20 2025 at 01:44
|
I caught the brief Amazon interview with Page about the deluxe versions of Presence and ITtOD. Not bad, Jimmy looks quite good & healthy for a guy who had glandular problems most of his life. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 20 2025 at 01:46
 ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 20 2025 at 10:56
|
^^ I find it a pleasant surprise how good of shape he is in given his age and lifestyle in the 70s/80s. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |