Crimson are good shocker!!
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Topic: Crimson are good shocker!!
Posted By: arcer
Subject: Crimson are good shocker!!
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 09:39
|
many moons ago I bought "In the Court of the Crimson King" by King
Crimson. This, I was told, was a seminal prog album, the motherlode
almost, the record which spawned a generation of wondrous prog excess. So I parted with my cash for the umpteenth reissiue of the album and slapped it eagerly into the CD player. And.... Yawn!!!!! I found it boring, too wrapped in meandering 60s pyschedelia, too fey, too ambitious for its own good and I hated the vocals. In short it put me off the band for good. At least so I thought. For some reason I went back to KC of months ago, on a whim, after reading one of the reviews of Red here. I nabbed myself a copy and I am.... astounded. What an amazing album. It's angular, grinding, angry, tricksome, smooth, clever, intricate, unwieldy, brutal and delicate all at the same time. It is a completely different band. This could have been recorded last week, so timeless are its ideas and the execution of them. I'm amazed and slightly shame-faced for I've a fair amount of time on this site berating Crimson, all on the strength of their first album, which I still consider to be weak. I know that's heresy but after hearing Red I ploughed on through Lark's Tongues and Islands and they are both better than In tghe Court. To the people who have listened to KC's debut and shrugged your shoulders at its dubious charms: Go and buy Red. You owe it to yourself. It's an amazing record and by band who amazed me at the thoroughness of their bold reinvention.  |
Replies:
Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 09:50
|
Each incarnation of the band is different and has its own followers. I
like ITCOTCK butI do think it sounds a little dated now whereas Larks
Tongues & Red to my ears still sound fresh. Try "Discipline" - thats a different Crimson altogether, even though Fripp and also Bruford are in there! |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 09:53
|
For me Red & Starless and Bible Black are miles ahead of any of their earlier stuff
|
Posted By: alan_pfeifer
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 09:55
| Red's probably my 2nd favorite Crimson album. Gald you enjoy them |
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 10:00
|
In the Court, while a good album isn't really the masterpiece that we make it out to be. Like all incarnations, the album was better in a live setting, as shown by Epitaph volume 1&2. More energy and more intresting. -------------  
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Posted By: Mikerinos
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 10:04
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That sounds like me. I couldn't stand In the Court when I heard it but I decided to pick up Red a while later and loved it. In the Court has grown on me, but is no where near my favorite KC album.
------------- 
|
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 11:04
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I agree - pre Larks Tongues In Aspic Crimson has dated badly for the most part, although those early albums were massively influential and contain some real gems. ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
goose wrote:Posted By: stechell
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 11:18
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I thought i was the only soul on Earth who was not an ITCKC big fan... RED and ISLANDS.....SUPERB!!! |
Posted By: Winter Wine
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 11:25
|
Well I consider 'In the Court of the Crimson King' and 'Red' to be massively overrated. The only reason 'Red' doesn't sound dated is because it is very much a rock album, Maybe even metal. Today there are a lot of bands that make albums that sound like 'Red', None of them are probably as good! I'd give both 'Red' and 'In the Court' **** and not one more! I think my analysis of both albums are quite fair, and for me, Crimson had better albums, Some are just much more interesting. ------------- My computer's broke |
Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 11:31
| Of the "early" albums Lizard is my favourite but I recognise its an acquired taste for some people! |
Posted By: cosmictraveler
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 11:35
|
Interesting. I have had several experiences like that with many albums; a yawner on the first listen, then stunning with repeated observations. Y'all check out "In the Wake of Poseidon"....now THAT's the Crimson album that stunned me! It is almost as amazing as ITCOTCK and LTIA. There are moments of pure beauty and fascination. A beautiful album. To me, after Starless and Bible Black, Crimson began to be complex for complexity's sake, and entered the realm of indeciperable technobable. How do y'all feel about the 21st Century Schizoid Band? Made up of former Crimson members, their audio samples on I-tunes sound good to me, gonna check them out further. ------------- The dust of many centuries has blown across this land, but love will not be scattered like the sand. -Justin Hayward |
Posted By: Winter Wine
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 11:38
|
Well I acquired the taste!!! To me 'Lizard' is the best Crimson after 'Larks Tongues in Aspic', I'm also a big fan of 'Islands', It's not perfect, But it's quite an album. ------------- My computer's broke |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 11:43
|
I basically have become a King Crimson fanboy since my first album by
them (the power to believe). They and Dream Theater showed me the way
into prog rock. And IMO they have never released a bad album in the
late 60's early 70's and you can at least find 1 album you'll like by
them. I  King Crimson------------- 
|
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 12:03
|
Very interesting how some people belittle "In the Court of the Crimson
King". I do not think it has dated at all. I don't think it is King
Crimson's best album though; that vote clearly goes to "Lizard". But
the importance of "In the Court of the Crimson King" can hardly be
expressed enough. Genesis, for example, were very much influenced by it
(the Armando Gallo book about Genesis has someone of Genesis - I have
forgotten who - mention how they listened to "In the Court of the
Crimson King" again and again).
-------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 12:55
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I don't think the early albums are dated either. In the Court's material is still good, though I am baffled by those few horrendous drum fills. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph  
|
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 13:10
That's one of the best examples for a self-contradictory statement I ever saw. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Winter Wine
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 13:17
Do you mind telling me how Baldy? ------------- My computer's broke |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 13:26
-gr
s
v)Posted By: Winter Wine
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 13:29
Posted By: cosmictraveler
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 13:36
|
Yeah, Crimson's earlier stuff, although extremely experimental, did have more real "songs"....and they used the mellotron more extensively than any others besides the masters of mellotron, the Moody Blues. There was more real beauty there. Reading y'all, I need to get more into the later stuff. I have all the albums (red, etc) but haven't been a fan of "prog metal". I agree with a fellow earlier here, "Islands" is a weirdly stretched work of beauty. Formentera Lady is pure poetry, Sailor's Tale is terrifying, much like LTIA. I even have Lizard and haven't listened yet....think I will now.....but bottom line, I don't like noise and techno-wizardry just for the sake of itself....there has to be a cohesive statement there for me....but Crimson RULES. They're the artists..... ------------- The dust of many centuries has blown across this land, but love will not be scattered like the sand. -Justin Hayward |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 13:36
We obviously have a different understanding of the word "progressive". If a band produced an album that was very influential for the development of several other bands that came afterwards, that band certainly was progressive (ahead of the time). ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Winter Wine
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 13:39
Well I see where you're coming from but 'Never Mind The Bollox' influenced a lot of bands, Obviously, So does that mean that it was a progressive rock album? ------------- My computer's broke |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 13:45
|
Interestingly, I think yes. It brought kick-ass back into prog,
something that had gone lost. Just look at albums like "Wind and
Wuthering" or "The Wall"; whatever one may say about them, but they
certainly don't kick ass.
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Winter Wine
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 13:46
|
------------- My computer's broke |
Posted By: Fritha
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 18:39
|
Arcer, nice to know you gave the band another chance. Admittedly I have so far only heard a live version of 21st Century Schizoid Man on one of the live records, but judged by that, I am not exactly enthusiastic about getting ITCOTCK, either... You see, despite of having several KC records in my collection by now (Islands, LTIA, SABB, Red and Discipline), I have yet to hear the debut in its entirety simply because in the case of KC (as with many other bands) I decided for some reason to adobt my own record buying tactic, which basically comes down to this: whatever you do, don´t start off with a band with their most well-known piece of work. Now, there have been exceptions, but I have found this particular approach to work for me in several cases... I introduced myself to Rush with Hemispheres, not Moving Pictures, to Yes with The Yes Album, not Fragile, to Floyd with WYWH, not DSOTM, to Genesis with SEBTP, not Foxtrot (~Supper´s Ready)... And to King Crimson with LTIA, not ITCOTCK. In all cases I have been thankful for my choices, to be honest, as none of those more famous alternatives have been able to hold a candle to the records I chose as my stepping stone to the various back catalogues, and in some cases (like Genesis) I might have actually done what you did with KC; passed on the rest of the catalogue for the longest time...! So in the end the best rule of thumb is probably to always take a listen to at least a couple of records from different eras -especially if the band in question has evolved, musically and line-up wise, as much as KC. I plan on following this rule myself, when I finally decide to tackle Zappa´s monstrous recording career, heh! ------------- I was made to love magic |
Posted By: RoyalJelly
Date Posted: February 20 2006 at 18:50
Congratulations, you may have just discovered that there is a mysterious process in music known as "development", which is closely related to another phenomenon known in historical circles as "history", something terribly lacking in most of the reviews here. It's a big shock to many card carrying prog lovers to realize that prog didn't always exist, and that certain risk-taking musicians actually had to invent it first. Most of these guys were pot-smoking, vegetarian hippies at the time, and if the early efforts sounded psychedelic, that's because that's where all those ideas got started. While you may be bored by that sort of thing from the vantage point of your super modern cybernetic life-style of today, you should be bloody appreciative that they had the balls to take those chances and create that stuff, or you might still be dancing the twist. |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 12:45
Just checking you mean "rock", rather than "prog" there. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 13:52
I mean prog had turned "schmaltzy", and a punk infusion was badly needed to get the lard out of the asses. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 13:59
|
I started with ITCOTCK and I still think it's their best album. Red is kinda' overrated, IMO, but still excellent. ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 14:12
|
I've yet to hear In The Court.... but I already have Red, Lizard and Islands and with the exception of the last one, their brilliant. My Dad had a similar experience, he listened to In The Court... when it came out and wasnt impressed but he didnt bother with any of their following work. Over christmas I played him Lizard and he now admits that he should have carried on listening to them. Only took him 36 years ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
|
Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 14:57
|
[/QUOTE] Congratulations, you may have just discovered that there is a mysterious process in music known as "development", which is closely related to another phenomenon known in historical circles as "history", something terribly lacking in most of the reviews here. It's a big shock to many card carrying prog lovers to realize that prog didn't always exist, and that certain risk-taking musicians actually had to invent it first. Most of these guys were pot-smoking, vegetarian hippies at the time, and if the early efforts sounded psychedelic, that's because that's where all those ideas got started. While you may be bored by that sort of thing from the vantage point of your super modern cybernetic life-style of today, you should be bloody appreciative that they had the balls to take those chances and create that stuff, or you might still be dancing the twist.[/QUOTE] Hmm seem to have hit a raw nerve here. 1. My "modern cybernetic lifetsytyle" extends to being able to work Microsoft Word. I'm old enought to remember DSOTM being released so I think my ability to judge a work on its historical and artistic merit is well developed. 2. I fully appreciate the place ITCOTCK has in the annals of prog but I still believe it to be a pretty mediocre album. I feel the same way about a lot of other albums that have attracted a wealth of received wisdom. For example: Never Mind the Bollocks, which BaldFriede mentioned was a groundbreaking record and has attrracted huge amounts of critical acclaim. Personally I find much of it to be poor. There are a few outstanding moments but only the couple of things that informed the first couple of iconic singles. Nirvana's Nevermind is the same for me, aside from the obvious 'Smells like teen spirt', 'Come As You Are' and 'In Bloom' it's poor. 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn' is the same. Groundbreaking in context, but they have not lasted the test of time. 'Red' is a far more accomplished, interesting and artistically complete album (for me) than ITCOTCK. In fact I would say the same for Islands and Lark's Tongues. Indeed I went out and got Discipline on the strength of someone here's recommendation and THAT is better than ITCOTCK. An album's place in the pantheon of progressive albums should not rest on its historic significance alone. It should stand the test of critical comparison down the years. ITCOTCK does not do that. 3. That appears to be borne out by the comments here. The majority of the respondents to the thread rate ITCOCK as an album that has dated badly and scores lower than later work by the band. It's place in the pantheon, it would appear, is solely based on its historical merit. A case, as happens so often, of an album's reputation protecting it from honest evaluation. 4. Actually, come to think of it, I never dissed its historical merit or denied it. I merely said it was a poor album, an opinion I adhere to. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 15:33
Congratulations, you may have just discovered that there is a mysterious process in music known as "development", which is closely related to another phenomenon known in historical circles as "history", something terribly lacking in most of the reviews here. It's a big shock to many card carrying prog lovers to realize that prog didn't always exist, and that certain risk-taking musicians actually had to invent it first. Most of these guys were pot-smoking, vegetarian hippies at the time, and if the early efforts sounded psychedelic, that's because that's where all those ideas got started. While you may be bored by that sort of thing from the vantage point of your super modern cybernetic life-style of today, you should be bloody appreciative that they had the balls to take those chances and create that stuff, or you might still be dancing the twist.[/QUOTE] Hmm seem to have hit a raw nerve here. 1. My "modern cybernetic lifetsytyle" extends to being able to work Microsoft Word. I'm old enought to remember DSOTM being released so I think my ability to judge a work on its historical and artistic merit is well developed. 2. I fully appreciate the place ITCOTCK has in the annals of prog but I still believe it to be a pretty mediocre album. I feel the same way about a lot of other albums that have attracted a wealth of received wisdom. For example: Never Mind the Bollocks, which BaldFriede mentioned was a groundbreaking record and has attrracted huge amounts of critical acclaim. Personally I find much of it to be poor. There are a few outstanding moments but only the couple of things that informed the first couple of iconic singles. Nirvana's Nevermind is the same for me, aside from the obvious 'Smells like teen spirt', 'Come As You Are' and 'In Bloom' it's poor. 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn' is the same. Groundbreaking in context, but they have not lasted the test of time. 'Red' is a far more accomplished, interesting and artistically complete album (for me) than ITCOTCK. In fact I would say the same for Islands and Lark's Tongues. Indeed I went out and got Discipline on the strength of someone here's recommendation and THAT is better than ITCOTCK. An album's place in the pantheon of progressive albums should not rest on its historic significance alone. It should stand the test of critical comparison down the years. ITCOTCK does not do that. 3. That appears to be borne out by the comments here. The majority of the respondents to the thread rate ITCOCK as an album that has dated badly and scores lower than later work by the band. It's place in the pantheon, it would appear, is solely based on its historical merit. A case, as happens so often, of an album's reputation protecting it from honest evaluation. 4. Actually, come to think of it, I never dissed its historical merit or denied it. I merely said it was a poor album, an opinion I adhere to. [/QUOTE] You said "Yawn!!!!! I found it boring, too wrapped in meandering 60s pyschedelia, too fey, too ambitious for its own good and I hated the vocals. In short it put me off the band for good." Well, what did you expect? The album was recorded in 1968, when nobody regarded these "meandering 60s psychedelia" as boring; on the contrary, everyone found them exciting. You also call the album "fey"; a very interesting choice of words. Here a dictionary entry about "fey": Main Entry: fey Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English feye, from Old English f[AE]ge; akin to Old High German feigi fey and perhaps to Old English fAh hostile, outlawed -- more at FOE 1 a chiefly Scottish : fated to die : DOOMED b : marked by a foreboding of death or calamity 2 a : able to see into the future : VISIONARY b : marked by an otherworldly air or attitude c : CRAZY, TOUCHED 3 a : PRECIOUS 3 b : UNCONVENTIONAL, CAMPY - fey·ly adverb - fey·ness noun Now which meaning of fey did you mean? ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 15:39
| I like everything from early pre-KC: "Giles, giles and fripp" (1968), until "Live in USA 1975"... |
Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 16:44
Hmm seem to have hit a raw nerve here. 1. My "modern cybernetic lifetsytyle" extends to being able to work Microsoft Word. I'm old enought to remember DSOTM being released so I think my ability to judge a work on its historical and artistic merit is well developed. 2. I fully appreciate the place ITCOTCK has in the annals of prog but I still believe it to be a pretty mediocre album. I feel the same way about a lot of other albums that have attracted a wealth of received wisdom. For example: Never Mind the Bollocks, which BaldFriede mentioned was a groundbreaking record and has attrracted huge amounts of critical acclaim. Personally I find much of it to be poor. There are a few outstanding moments but only the couple of things that informed the first couple of iconic singles. Nirvana's Nevermind is the same for me, aside from the obvious 'Smells like teen spirt', 'Come As You Are' and 'In Bloom' it's poor. 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn' is the same. Groundbreaking in context, but they have not lasted the test of time. 'Red' is a far more accomplished, interesting and artistically complete album (for me) than ITCOTCK. In fact I would say the same for Islands and Lark's Tongues. Indeed I went out and got Discipline on the strength of someone here's recommendation and THAT is better than ITCOTCK. An album's place in the pantheon of progressive albums should not rest on its historic significance alone. It should stand the test of critical comparison down the years. ITCOTCK does not do that. 3. That appears to be borne out by the comments here. The majority of the respondents to the thread rate ITCOCK as an album that has dated badly and scores lower than later work by the band. It's place in the pantheon, it would appear, is solely based on its historical merit. A case, as happens so often, of an album's reputation protecting it from honest evaluation. 4. Actually, come to think of it, I never dissed its historical merit or denied it. I merely said it was a poor album, an opinion I adhere to. [/QUOTE] You said "Yawn!!!!! I found it boring, too wrapped in meandering 60s pyschedelia, too fey, too ambitious for its own good and I hated the vocals. In short it put me off the band for good." Well, what did you expect? The album was recorded in 1968, when nobody regarded these "meandering 60s psychedelia" as boring; on the contrary, everyone found them exciting. You also call the album "fey"; a very interesting choice of words. Here a dictionary entry about "fey": Main Entry: fey Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English feye, from Old English f[AE]ge; akin to Old High German feigi fey and perhaps to Old English fAh hostile, outlawed -- more at FOE 1 a chiefly Scottish : fated to die : DOOMED b : marked by a foreboding of death or calamity 2 a : able to see into the future : VISIONARY b : marked by an otherworldly air or attitude c : CRAZY, TOUCHED 3 a : PRECIOUS 3 b : UNCONVENTIONAL, CAMPY - fey·ly adverb - fey·ness noun Now which meaning of fey did you mean? [/QUOTE] fey as in 3a: precious. As in a little contrived, wrapped up in its own otherwordliness and not in a good way. I choose my words carefully. And know the meaning of them. And I expected a transcendant album of progressive greatness - as the unwarranted status devoted to it seemed to promise. It didn't deliver. It is more the fault of the hype rather than the album itself, which is merely adequate. Historically important but not the 'album for all time' it is reckoned to be. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 17:32
|
I sincerely doubt anyone called it the "album of all time". how could
it be that? and how could one seriously expect it? "we all stand on the
shoulders of giants", as Isaac Newton once remarked. Rome wasn't built
in a day. you should listen to the album with the right perspective of
mind, then you will discover its beauties. "21st Century Schizoid Man"
is an all time classic, and it was not for nothing that Steve Hackett
did renditions of "I talk to the Wind" and "In the Court of the Crimson
King" in some of his concerts (with the help of some King Crimson
musicians, like Ian McDonald and John Wetton)
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 17:43
|
I appreciate the sentiment Friede, but I've had ITCOTCK for going on
six years and have found, over a substantial number of listens, little
in it that thrills me. I can happily accept its place in prog hirstory
as a landmark album but in retrospect I think most will agree that it
has aged badly. Red is a far more articulate and cohesive statement.
I'll accept too that ITCOTCK was a revolutionary recording, but while
that record has, I feel, fared badly with the passage of time, Red
really could have been recorded this year. It, to my ears, is
timelessly adventurous, whereas ITCOTCK, to my ears, is little more
than an interesting curio at this stage, a record that is the aural
equivalent of That Was the Week that Was - the birthplace
of so much good comedy but which was better realised by those who got
their break on that show, later on in their careers (Python et al). The
former programme is now a frozen moment in time forever associated with
its era, the latter still has resonance today. And saying I should listen to it with the right perspective is tantamount to admitting its limitations, don't you think? Anybody else believe its wildly overrated? Maybe you're right. It's not unknown for me to be completely wrong .... (though not very often  ) |
Posted By: RoyalJelly
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 18:10
|
Well, next time you're enjoying Red, just remember, it never would have
been possible, had they not laid the groundwork with their revolutionary debut album. And perhaps you should take a poll as to whether most will agree it's "aged badly", I'm of the opinion that songs like "Epitaph" and "Schizoid Man" sum up the situation the world is in, and where it's heading more accurately and to the point than any new songs, and in that sense are thoroughly contemporary. It's music that's wide awake, deeply sincere and thoroughly haunting, so no, hasn't aged badly at all... |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 18:11
|
Well, I don't think it has dated at all, and I still listen to it often
and enjoy it every time. And you misunderstand my comment about "right
perspective"; that only refers to your criticism of the "meandering 60s
psychedelia". In fact these "meandering psychedelia" are very much
loved by me, and I miss them in many of today's albums (which I call
"trite"). I also have a different name for these "meandering
psychedelia"; I call them "free flights of imagination".
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: arnold stirrup
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 22:45
|
As most of the discussion here seems to involve the earlier KC work,
just thought I'd do a little plug for KC's 2 most recent albums:
ConstruKction of Light and Power To Believe. I own the entire studio
discography, and these 2 are both excellent. I was very disappointed
when TL and BB left after Thrak...so disappointed that I didn't buy
ConstruKction until almost a year after it was released...a big mistake
on my part. Anyway, KC keeps up the high standard with both of
these, imo. Power To Believe has easily been my most listened to
KC album for the past year or so, and it's currently one of my faves. For the record, my other faves are Lizard, Larks Tongues, and Discipline. ------------- So much music. So little time. |
Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 22:59
|
I have the Tokyo Tapes dvd and those renditions are great, I only wish though that they had played some Crimson from the Wetton era (although the one Asia song and the song Battlelines from one of Wetton's solo albums were quite good). ------------- 
|
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 23:00
Did somebody say ASIA????????  ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 23:01
Yep, Heat of the Moment... and I liked that rendition. -------------
|
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 23:05
Yep, Heat of the Moment... and I liked that rendition. "Open Your Eyes" would have been better, but "Heat of the Moment" is great too  ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 23:11
|
^Possibly, I haven't listened to that much Asia, though, so I'm not really sure. -------------
|
Posted By: valravennz
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 23:17
|
So aptly put, Friede. The psychedelia of the early KC albums were certainly an expression of freedom of the imagination and as mentioned elsewhere on this thread, the willingness to experiment and take radical directions in music that had not happened in such a definitive way, prior to the release of ITCOTCK. I can remember when it was first released back in 1969 - I was in my early teens then. I listened to it in the record shop first, before buying the LP. It blew me away with it's creativity and combination of jazz, rock and symphonic elements. I had to have the LP. It was the start of my 30 plus years of progressive music fascination. Today, ITCOTCK, stands up very well to much of the modern progressive music. I still like the album very much. I have also accepted that KC have made some great changes in music direction up until present time. They are still my favourite prog group, because they have set a standard that many other rock musicians have followed. I am not too familiar with their post-1975 recordings apart from "Discipline". My most listened to KC are: ITCOTCK, ITWOP, Lizard, Islands, Red and LTIA. Of these Red, Lizard and ITCOTCK are my favourite albums. ------------- 
"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence" - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 23:22
I can erm... cough cough "recommend" you their greatest hits, if you'd like. It pretty much has all the songs from the first two albums already on it. ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: antibiotic
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 23:23
 In The Court IS the masterpiece we all make it out to be. |
Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: February 21 2006 at 23:27
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Let me sum up their post Discipline studio albums for you. Beat: Their "poppiest" album. Contains some really strong tracks in Neal and Jack and Me, Heartbeat, Waiting Man (being the best song on the album and better interpreted live, with 10 minute versions being available nowadays, and Sartori in Tangier). Three of a Perfect Pair: Half of it is Belew penned "pop" tunes, and the other half is almost avant-garde instrumental music. Strong tracks are Three of a Perfect Pair, Industry, Larks' Tongue in Aspic Pt. III. THRAK: Perhaps their most avant-garde album. Contains some very avant-garde jazz-metalish instrumentals and very strong vocal tracks in between. Strong tracks in Dinosaur, Thrak, One Time, People, Walking on Air, and VROOM/Coda Marine 1945. The ConstruKction of Light: A heavier version of Thrak. Contains of reworking of Fracture, simply titled FracKtured, and some of the most bizarre Belew lyrics on record. Larks' Tongue in Aspic Pt. IV is a very nice track as well as Coda: I Have a Dream. The Power to Believe: In the same vein as TCoL, mainly instrumental (there are 3 tracks with vocal, the rest is instrumental). The instrumentals have different feels to them, Level Five has a very Thrak feel to it, while EleKtrik has a very TCoL feel to it, while Dangerous Curves has a very spacey feel to it. The vocal tracks are also very strong. In a word, Belew era Crimson is great stuff as long as you can get past the random "K" in certain songs. -------------
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Posted By: RoyalJelly
Date Posted: February 22 2006 at 01:01
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My favorite post 74 Crimson album is the 3 CD live set Heavy
CostrucKtion...all the CostrucKtion of Light tunes are better on this one, the Thrak tunes are also killer, and there's many a thrashing jam...the cover of "Heroes" alone is worth the price (special in that Fripp played on the original, and Belew had toured with Bowie and played it before joining Crimson). |
Posted By: valravennz
Date Posted: February 22 2006 at 05:02
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"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence" - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: February 22 2006 at 14:45
I addressed the argument of ITCOTCK's originality and never questioned it's significance as a historical artefact. I just think the music has dated badly. Not the lyrics. The relevance today of the lyrcis is of no great import for me if the music seems to me to be, often, as whimsically psychedelic as Traffic's Hole in My Shoe. Howewer, by the time Traffic came to do things like John Barleycorn and Low Spark then they began to make timeless music. In my opinion, and it is just that, King Crimson only achieved that kind of timelessness on songs like Islands and albums like Red. However, each to his own. The point of the thread was to highlight, for those who have been turned away from KC by ITCOTCK, the wonderful merits of their latter output. |
Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: February 22 2006 at 14:49
meanwhile (I'm quite enjoying this argument - and please don't take it as baiting, I'm just interested in the debate) Friede again mentions "right perspective". What is the right perspective? How do I attain that perspective to the point where "meandering psychedlia" becomes "free flights of imagination". I don't understand your point regarding perspective? |
Posted By: arnold stirrup
Date Posted: February 22 2006 at 23:05
Nicely done, Cygnus X-2... I'd strongly recommend any of these albums to those who haven't heard them. Btw, you can say what you want about ITC (which I love), but it's got one of the absolute greatest debut album lead-off tracks of all time! ------------- So much music. So little time. |
Posted By: ____VdGG____
Date Posted: February 22 2006 at 23:52
Thanks for the overview, Cygnus. I have all of KC's albums but Beat, Perfect Pair, and Thrak, and was curious to see what they sounded like 
Now the only challenge left is to scour all of the sh*tty CD stores in my city to find them  ------------- Iron throated monsters are forcing the screams; Mind and machinery box-press our dreams |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 23 2006 at 03:47
I'll answer your question about "perspective" with a quote from Japanese tea-master Kobori Enshu: "At first I praised the artist for his paintings. Now I praise myself for appreciating what the artist has chosen for me". ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: February 23 2006 at 18:17
That's just nonsense! And egomaniacal. And evasive. I'd rather praise the artist for producing music that still sounded viable rather than congratulate myself for raiding the internet for a pseudo-mystical quote from a japanese bloke with a PG Tips fetish. I might as well say ITCOTCK is rubbish because as the great Japanese sensei Mr Miyagi said: "wax on, wax off." Anyway I have never yet met any real artist who produced/chose art for the people who consume it. They do it to please themselves. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 24 2006 at 07:15
Oh, but you miss the point of Kobori Enshu's statement. What he talks about is that artists should not try to please the senses of the audience, but that they should create an expression of themselves. There is nothing egomaniacal about that. It is for the viewer/listener/smeller/feeler (is there any olfactory or tactile art?) to make an effort in perceiving that work of art and looking for something that in some way expands his sense of beauty and artistry. And I did not "raid the web" for that Kobori Enshu quote, by the way; it is one of my all-time favourite quotes. It appears in "The Book of Tea" by Kakuzo Okakura. Are medieval paintings outdated? Artists have learned so much more about perspective over the centuries, but that doesn't stop me from admiring a medieval artist as well. Or does anybody laugh about Newton because Einstein created the theory of relativity, which proved Newton wrong in many ways? Or is a tragedy by Sophokles or Euripides outdated, because Beckett or Ionesco wrote much more modern work? No, of course not! ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: arnold stirrup
Date Posted: February 25 2006 at 00:04
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I don't think it's something you attain. Either it happens, or it doesn't. Have you ever listened to something for days, week, months, even years, and just didn't "get it"? And then one day, all of a sudden, it clicks? Happens to me a lot. Sometimes it doesn't even happen while I'm hearing it. Sometimes it happens when I wake up in the morning, or when I hear something on the radio. All of a sudden, my perspective changes. It also happens the other way. Sometimes I'll anticipate listening to something I haven't heard in awhile, and then when I listen to it there's no gratification. Sometimes this is permanent. The point is, I don't think it's something that I consciously control. It just happens. Maybe someday you'll realize you really like ITCOTCK. Maybe someday Freide won't care for it much. You never know. ------------- So much music. So little time. |
Posted By: arnold stirrup
Date Posted: February 25 2006 at 00:40
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Nice take, Friede. My favorite quote about perspective is from the song My Back Pages by Bob Dylan: "But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." Kinda the approach I take with listening to music.
------------- So much music. So little time. |
Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: February 25 2006 at 05:44
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Alright, the joke about Mr Miyagi was just being silly and I do
understand your comments about perpective. When I was younger I just
didn't get a lot of jazz etc (truth be told, I still don't get a lot of
it) and I'll admit that your ears can be opened. However, there comes a
time when you have to admit defeat. I've spent six years or so
listening to it and to me it's still a poor album. It doesn't matter
how much anyone says 'one day you'll understand, young padwan' (though
I'm probably older than both of you) it remains, for me, an
undistinguished listen and I remain fully convinced that King Crimson
became a better and more interesting band in latter years, and that is
as valid a point of view as one lauding their debut as the lodestone of
all prog. Ultimately it's all about personal taste isn't it? And it
just so happens that yours is..... obviously wrong Seriously, it's an interesting point in regard to music. Just how long is long enough to give an album/artist? Should it not appeal at first listen? Sure there are levels of understanding and of appreciation but isn't there some immediate connection you should make with the sound, some visceral reaction that makes you want to delve deeper? I certainly think so. If I have to spend years waiting for the penny to drop then I think the artist has kind of failed. |
Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: February 25 2006 at 06:00
Really good argument! I get where you're coming from now. I'll offer this in response. Admiring a medieval painting informed by the knowledge that the techniques have been developed and bettered, which seems to be what you're suggesting, is to acknowledge the 'of-its-timeness' of the artwork, thereby acknowledging its limitations but appreciating the artistry of the project. Also the kind of appreciation you seem to be talking about has at its core a kind of detachment and relativism that , in my opnion, should not exist when appreciating music. It should, for me, as I said above, be a visceral connection, beyond the kind of the detached analysis that says, 'well if you understand the context in which this was made then you will 'get' the music'. You shouldn't have to contextualise music. Sure it might enhance the experience eventually, but first you have to love the music, from the moment you hear it. ITCOTCK never did it for me. Red does. Maybe we should agree to differ |