Is Prog For Musicians Only?
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Topic: Is Prog For Musicians Only?
Posted By: Ghostnote
Subject: Is Prog For Musicians Only?
Date Posted: November 02 2006 at 22:42
| I am a drummer, who has loved progressive rock for many years and i have noticed that myself and other musicians i haved jammed with over the years can relate with this style of music, but people who do not play a musical instrument do not. So ultimitly is prog rock for musicians only? |
Replies:
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 02 2006 at 22:44
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Though I've known some non-musician prog fans, the die-hards are almost always musicians in some way-- I think you may be on to something.
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 02 2006 at 22:47
Yes. And even if you're not a musician, just say you are. It makes things easier. Like if you say "I like prog rock," and someone else says "What's that?" you can always say "Oh, you wouldn't understand. It's for musicians. It's like...complex and stuff."
 ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 02 2006 at 22:49
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I agree... off course you can like Prog if you're not a musician, but you'll miss one of its best elements: the musicianship, the possibility of analyzing structures, keys, harmonies, drum playing, etc, and get amazed (or dissapointed) by what you hear.
Non-musicians tend to like their music just for entertainment sake, just as something better than silence for moments like eating, working, etc...or they want music with a purpose, namely music that helps them dance..... they just won't sit down througha 20+minute epic.... what fun will it be to them? for them, short, 3-4 minute pieces are more than enough...surely they can love some aspects of prog, too, but they won't appreciate them in their whole magnitude as a musician can.
So I'll say 90% prog-lovers are musicians....I know others that aren't but at least they love art....they love literature, they love good cinema...THEY LOVE THEIR BRAIN TO BE CHALLENGED AND PLAYED WITH....
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Posted By: tardis
Date Posted: November 02 2006 at 22:50
Great. I'm not a musician. So I get left out.  |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 02 2006 at 22:55
Yes you are a musician. Just say you are, and if anyone asks to jam or something, just say "I don't jam, I compose 20-minute opuses with no improvisation whatsoever."  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
tardis wrote:Posted By: stomp
Date Posted: November 02 2006 at 23:36
| I love prog but play no instruments, and I certainly cant sing. About half the people I know who like prog rock play instruments though. |
Posted By: tardis
Date Posted: November 02 2006 at 23:39
Actually, I was in a band for a short period of time, but I was just the vocalist.  |
Posted By: ResidentAlien
Date Posted: November 02 2006 at 23:42
Wow... how terribly condescending and presumptuous. The only thing I play is the stereo; I also happen to value my mind and my sanity, and I'd prefer not to squander either on sh*tty main-stream music. To suggest that good music can only be appreciated by people who play music is absurd and rather disrespectful. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: November 02 2006 at 23:48
i dont think thats what he meant. from i believe, he meant that most people he knows that likes prog rock also plays a musical instrument.
what's funny is most ppl i know that like prog ALSO play a musical instrument, though i know some that dont.
to add to the discussion, i think prog is especially great for those who compose, like me. for they just WISH they could have written that song they just heard.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: November 02 2006 at 23:56
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I don't play an instrument now, but I was a cellist when I first got into prog. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 00:06
Obviously not.
 (The only thing I can "play" is a stereo!)
Only a minority of the prog fans I've known have been musicians.
I imagine one could get the same idea about jazz, if one was a jazz musician.
 (Plus, musicians tend to hang around with/know other musicians.) ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 00:40
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I studied piano and played drums for years but most of my proghead friends (Some fanatics) can't play hide and seek.
This sounds elitist and pretentuious even when I'm sure it's not the intention, sensibility and love for good music is not exclusive of musicians.
On the other hand I know a lot of musicians (some proffesionals) who aren't able to understand Prog.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 00:49
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The author's intention clearly was not to offend though he could have worded it better. He's coming from the perspective of a musician and so he knows not the raised eyebrows he may cause...
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Posted By: video vertigo
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 00:52
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I'm not a musician but in a related story once someone was talking to me about music and I said I liked prog and he imediately asked me what instrument I played.
I used to play trumpet in the high school marching band, but I got into prog after I gave up on playing music ------------- "The rock and roll business is pretty absurd, but the world of serious music is much worse." - Zappa |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 02:08
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Very very elitist and pretentious.
You just have to read the archives to see that most prog aficionados can't play any instrument.
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Posted By: ShW1
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 02:13
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I dont think prog is just for musicians, its emotional music, that can apeal to anyone. Of course it depened on some musical education, or to get the idea that music should chalenge our mind, or art suppose to do something, beyond being just an entertainment... so its a question of art education and atitude...
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 02:16
| No, I'm sorry too if my comments were misunderstood. I'm only saying that it helps a lot to be a musician so you can be marveled at some instrumental or, well, musical stuff that probably you won't recognize if you are not (harmonies, chords, stuff like that). Yes, I started my prog-life when I used to think I played drums (I was a mess) and a loot of things made my jaws drop in awe.... today some of those things don;t have quite the same effect, because I'm no longer hearing them as wizardy or magic but as skillful playing.... so I think it helps, and even more so with jazz, off course, and classical. But to love good music you don't have to be a musician, off course, you just have to have art sensibility. And that's something many non-musicians have....and believe me, something MANY MUSICIANS LACK.... |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 02:41
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To be fair to GHOSTNOTE, he speaks from his experience of his fellow prog. enthusiasts and then he poses a question based on that experience for people to comment on and already we are seeing a range of responses. He definitely is not saying that you have to be a musician to relate to prog.I would say don't condemn him for posing the question.
In any event , it will vary from individual to individual. Are you or have you been a musician? Does that help you relate to prog? Many would answer 'yes'. I play and I'm into prog and jazz and nearly every other style of music so long as it is played/sung well. Does that make me elitist or a musical snob? Well, I don't believe so, except when it comes to Country and Western [not even playing and singing it well saves it for me {how elitist can you get}] I have a number of friends who do not sing or play who are absolutely 'die-hard' prog fans. I have late teenage children who sing and play, yet they are very prog intolerant [despite my best efforts to convert them]. My brother-in-law is one of the most soughtafter electric bass players in this country ,based in Melbourne,who plays mainly jazz and fusion by choice and anything else going to help pay the bills . I've exposed him to more prog than fusion and he really enjoys the challenge of it and he says that it helps to give him ideas. So where is all this leading ? I guess it can help if you are musical but you certainly don't have to be imo. ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: martinprog77
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 03:34
 .i cant play an isttrument [i can barely type] and i love prog ------------- Nothing can last there are no second chances. Never give a day away. Always live for today. |
Posted By: the icon of sin
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 03:47
| So not being a musician makes me a prog wannabe? What a waste of 800 albums, eh? |
Posted By: iguana
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 03:59
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progressive music is for everyone with a functioning set of two ears and an equally functioning brain inbetween. ------------- progressive rock and rural tranquility don't match. true or false? |
Posted By: gong
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 04:48
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,, IS PROG FOR MUSICIANS ONLY?,,....of course not.
any musician (plays Prog or anything else, doesnt metter) is happy when can see/hear that (no musicians!)audience to clap, same as other musicians recognition as well.
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Posted By: Pseudonym
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 04:58
I agree...
people with limited functioning brain don't understand prog and they have to concentrate on listening to it which is not easy for some, usually those people like to listen prog ballads of some sort(kayleigh or silent man etc)
although prog has influenced me to pick up a guitar
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 05:30
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I learnt to play the piano and the guitar although I wouldn't really call myself a musician as I'm not very good at either.
It could be that you are mixing up cause and effect. Maybe people who like prog are more likely to be interested in learning to play a musical instrument whereas people who like mainstream music just want to sing. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10"> 
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 05:31
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John Peel who promoted the progressive scene for over a decade on both American and then for most of his career British radio, in the late 70's became a born-again punk, before his untimely death repeatedly stated "Prog is bollocks, absolute bollocks. I felt I had ordinary level qualifications musically and with prog I needed advance levels". Something dubious about his first statement, but some truth in the second, in particular when the prog music/rock scene started in the UK. The experimental underground music tended to be played by more accomplished musicians building upon but going well beyond the rudiments of rock and roll, attempting to marry other musics with rock. The college and university student audiences were welcoming listeners, wanting something more intellectually challenging. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 05:36
I am not a musician but I am all right with you. In fact in the last years (but also first with Jon & Vangelis) are you a lot of side project between musicians also very different sub genre alone and exclusively to confront itself between musicians head. ------------- 
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Posted By: Neil
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 05:53
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Some people are natural musicians who can appreciate clever chord changes and complex rythyms without having to actually play an instrument. There is quite a difference between having a musical brain and being a musician. Musicians take their interest that step further and spend the time to actually learn the physical side of an instrument. Not many have the manual dexterity to be Rick Wakeman but that doesn't mean that you can't appreciate his talent.
I've learnt the obligatory recorder in the past and also some piano. I've owned and played a Hammond Organ in the past as well. I wouldn't call myself a musician because I've never had the dedication to practice enough but I can read music and I can listen to a piece of music and know instantly if a note is the wrong pitch or length. I get a lot of enjoyment from doing the PA mix for bands and I "play" the mixing desk.
Therefore if you "think" music you can certainly enjoy prog and probably find yourself drawn towards it. Enjoy  ------------- When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory. |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 06:12
no, this only means that you have a very limited social life. no offence. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 06:13
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NOT
BTW, I'm a prog musician myself(well...I believe in it) and I hate when somebody labels prog as "Music for Musicians only". Personally I dislike so-called "bombastic" or way too experimental bands.When I hear no melody at least for 5 minutes,only heartless virtuosity or head-blowing avantgarde, I usually turn this off |
Posted By: Ne_Plus_Ultra
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 06:26
| Well, of course not. |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 06:35
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this could have been a good debate about the difference between the people from the 70s and the people of today, their taste, their need for sub-level entertainment vs. highly intelectual & aesthetic entertainment, their need to discover and experiment vs. snugness; and also, a good debate over the motivations and goals of the 70s media and the media of these days.
and that's because the initial argument doesn't stand up. i saw the Yes Live at QPR concert in 1975 and, from my experience with footbal match watching, i think the audience had about 60-70,000 people. (and first i couldn't believe my eyes. i wasn't actually into prog at the time and i wondered what the hell was so special about that silly looking people on stage and their non-musical music). now, i can only guess that they were not all musicians... and that the rest were not people coming for some "light" musical entertainment. THOSE people were the hundread thousands going to Stones or Zeppelin concerts. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: Codis
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 08:55
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I played trombone in grammar school concert band. But I wasn't very good. Sometimes I try to figure out songs on my son's 22-key Casio. I've got the 5 notes from "Close Encounters" down pat.
-------------  Grammy Award Winning Jethro Tull!
1989 Best Hard Rock/Metal Performance 
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Posted By: akin
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 08:56
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Among the people I know, few prog fans are musicians, though most of
them would like to be musicians, but they do not study to be a musician
because it is frustrating when you start playing and compare your level
with the level of the great musicians. Just to mention, I'm a novice musician, learning to play the piano after I learned to play the guitar. |
Posted By: Firepuck
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 09:21
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Never played an instrument, can't sing, LOVE prog - go figure.
You should turn this into a poll. ------------- Kryten : "'Pub'? Ah yes, A meeting place where humans attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks." |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 09:24
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something more: most prog-fans are not musicians, but prog DOES encourage fans to take on learning to play musical instruments. i praise it for this. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: Masque
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 09:28
Some musicians don`t like prog , just thought I better warn you  ------------- |
Posted By: T.Rox
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 10:08
I've been listening to prog music for about 35 years now ... I gave up trying to play an instrument about 32 or 33 years ago because I was just no good at it 
My part in the progress and spread of prog: spinning plenty of prog songs - even complete albums - on Community Radio ... and always playing at least one epic of over 15 minutes every week, backed up by plenty in the 10 to 15 minute bracket played throughout the show
If you are into prog - you must be coz you are on PA - find a community radio station near you and extend the hand of prog to the listeners in your area by spinning up a prog music storm
------------- "Without prog, life would be a mistake." ...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 10:40
| No. Prog is not only for musicians, though it's certainly easier to appreciate it if one is a musician. The only 100 % Proghead friend I have is not a musician, while many of my musician friends aren't Progheads (though they appreciate most Prog). |
Posted By: Artisalie
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 10:55
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I do not believe that prog music is only for musicians. Music is a form of art to be appreciated by everyone. You can enjoy a painting, a poem, or a film without understanding the construction or creation of it. Although, a musician may understand more about the music it does not make the experience any better or more valid. ------------- The hand that signed the treaty bred a fever, And famine grew, and locusts came; Great is the hand that holds dominion over Man by a scribbled name. |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 11:03
| Of course not. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 11:06
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When I got ito prog I didnt play any instrument, and only in the last year have I tacken up the bass, though this is because of prog.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 11:09
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No. Though musical ability is a big contributing factor with regards to liking prog. ------------- 
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 12:08
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It also crossed my mind in some moments, but no... there are a lot of people that just dont like mainstream rock, or just plainly like prog, even though they may not understand that a certain song is in 7/8 ...they like what they hear. I know people that listen to not only prog but other more non-comercial music cause they dont want a 3 minutes song about the girl next door. ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: FragileDT
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 12:19
Absolutely agree. And I've been playing guitar and saxophone for a long time now. ------------- One likes to believe In the freedom of music But glittering prizes And endless Compromises Shatter the illusion Of integrity |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 12:22
| I used to play the drums but haven't sat behind a kit to "seriously" play in almost 10 years. I would never consider myself a "musician". |
Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 12:39
that's a good oneI know many musicians and bigger part of them have no idea (or have a very vague idea) of what prog is. From other side almost all die hard fanatics of prog (including myself) that I know are not musicians.
------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 12:41
| I have friends, who are not musicians, and they love prog a lot. Being a musician myself has brought new light to my eyes. I listened to prog before I picked up bass, and when I did it changed and I could have more appreciation for the music. But I do not think prog is for musicians only. It just helps some people to understand it better. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 13:05
| Music also helps me appreciate the musicians more. My non playing friends do not realise how good the players are because they have not tried to learn that song on an instrument. |
Posted By: jalas
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 13:57
| It's all a matter of exposure. It's really easy to like music in the mainstream since it's very accessable through the TV or the radio. It is easier to just say that you listen to everything. As I've said before, I live in South Florida and this is not a good place to find prog fans. When you do, they're usually musicians. I do not want to think that all prog fans are musicians, but so far, from my personal experience, that is what I see. Of course I blame it on where I live. |
Posted By: Uroboros
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 14:53
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One thing I'd like to point out is that you usually don't hear a musician saying things like "band X sucks" or "prog metal is not prog", "I can't stand double bass" or "prog died in '75" and whatever else. It's very unlikely to hear stupid remarks from musicians, basically because they know better and they have an ear that is more accustomed to recognizing other musicians' merits. So, I would say that an untrained ear is more exposed to the threat of ignorance. On the other hand, I know people who don't play any instrument but have a very fine ear for good music. It's largely a question of having an open mind and soul, a flexible sensibility and being willing to understand and constantly explore. All educated people (in any cultural field) are potential lovers of good music. ------------- Tous les chemins qui s’ouvrent à moi ne mènent à rien si tu n’es plus là |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 15:16
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I started playing guitar about 4 years before I started getting into prog. After that, I was something of a progsnob for a few years. I felt that the only good music was from the early to mid 70's, and Rush . Luckily, I have changed my perspective quite a bit. Being a musician has certainly enhanced my appreciation of the skill it takes to make what I consider good music. And I still think prog is the best music overall. But learning an instrument is, in itself a progessive endeavor. If you are really into it, you want to keep getting better and keep learning new things. I always strived to be different in my playing, develop my own style, while still learning new things and incorporating them into that style. Most popular rock music strikes me as being stagnant and more of a style and image thing than a musical thing. So I think being a musician is certainly no guarentee that you will like prog. I also have a lot of friends that like prog that are not musicians at all and never have been. A couple people I know, who have broader music tastes than I do, actually know more about music than me in terms of harmonic development and composition, and they have never played an instrument. The bottom line is you like what you like and nothing else matters at all. Just because I know what time signatures, keys, scales, and harmonic patterns a song is using, doesn't mean I somehow get more enjoyment out of it than someone who doesn't know or understand those things. In fact, that person may well enjoy it more, depending on the song, perciesely because they don't understand those things |
Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 16:34
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I don't play music at all and I always like good prog.music since I am 12 years old . In the middle nineties when I was 34-35 years old, I discovered classical music. When I came back to progressive music three years ago, I could understand and appreciate more the progressive music, and this because I listened a lot of classical music for several years, and jazz music too.
I read Macan's book " The Endless Enigma" about ELP music. I must confess that I am not able to understand the music as Macan's do or like other musicians do understand the music, but I am learning. When Macan is talking to a part in a ELP's piece and describe it, I can relate to it most of the time.
To understand a piece of music, you have to listen to it again and again, and after that you can developpe a musical expertise.
IMO, you don't have to be a musician to like prog.music. In my province, in the seventies, we all grew up with this music, so for us, prog. was a natural way to play music. We never needed to play music to like Genesis , ELP, Gentle Giant and so on. Open mind was enough.
Sylvie ------------- C'est la vie |
Posted By: frippster
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 17:28
| I took two piano lessons when I was 10, and I am an expert finger tapper (heavily Peart-influenced). I don't have musical talent, but I can appreciate musicianship, intricacy, complexity, beauty... Let's say that prog is one of the genres for those who want more from music than just entertainment or background noise. |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 17:32
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I'm not a musician. Please let me know about the final conclusion of this thread, so I can decide about the CD's I already have. Thank you in advance. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: SolariS
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 17:36
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You can always say you're a musician. Then later when someone asks you what you play tell them you are a rapper. -------------  
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 17:51
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Posted By: Scapler
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 18:43
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No, but musicians tend to apprectiate it more ------------- Bassists are deadly 
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Posted By: Froth
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 18:54
| certainly not... i heard Camel when i was 16 and knew next to nothing about music, but i was hooked none the less... it did inspire me to go into music because it was so good but some bands are so beutiful anyone can love it. People who write music to 'impress' musicians are the sort of people who give lternative music a bad name |
Posted By: Progressive??
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 19:12
AGREE!!
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Posted By: Progressive??
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 19:21
THIS IS REALLY TRUE!!!
the proof that prog is much more than what it seems
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Posted By: DarioIndjic
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 19:30
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Prog is all about emotions,i dont care much of level of musicianship.Imagination is much more important than knowledge.I cant play any instrument but i listen music with heart not with ears. ------------- Ars longa , vita brevis |
Posted By: Ktrout
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 19:31
| Prog is not for musicians only, but surely appreciation for the instrumental aspects to any music is enriched by the understanding of music gained when learning to play an instrument or studying musical theory. I suspect that 'Liquid Tension Experiment' is appreciated to a greater degree by musicians being in its entirety a celebration of instrumental prowess, wheras an album such as 'Permanent Waves' by Rush is pretty open to anyone. |
Posted By: Paradox
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 19:49
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I would say that I'm musically minded/musically aware, but I don't play an instrument at the moment. My enjoyment of prog is great, and I appricate the musicianship and complexity of the music I listen to. I am intending at some point to purchase a Bass guitar, and may I have many happy years ahead of me following that path. More than likely though I shall find myself a hapless shop worker for the unforseeable future.
I can whistle incredibly well though, so that's a bonus... ------------- 
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Posted By: CaptainQuark
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 20:13
Isn't that a bit like saying "Are the only people on buses other bus drivers?" I don't have a musical bone in my body, but life without Prog Metal just wouldn't be worth living! ------------- Erithacus Ordinary morals are for ordinary people ~ Aleister Crowley |
Posted By: Ridge
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 20:25
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I really enjoy Lasagna but could not prepare it to save my life! Would it help if I knew what it takes to make good lasagna to enjoy it? I think not! Would it give me more appreciation for who ever prepared it? Of course! I've recently purchased a Keyboard so as to start learning how to play it, but it's very frustrating wanting to go from simple chords to trying to play like Wakeman! ------------- Discipline is never an end in it self, only a means to an end. |
Posted By: Revan
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 20:38
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I don't know any proghead who doesn't play any instruments, but i guess its prog which makes you try an instrument and not the other way round.
------------- 
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Posted By: Ghostnote
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 21:41
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I am sorry if I offended anyone who does not play a musical instrument that they could not
appreciiate progressive rock. That was not my intention at all.
I just meant that if you take the AVERAGE music listener, and expose them to prog, most
of the time they do not understand it. They are just used to tapping their feet to 4/4 time and
are not aware of the complexities of a more complicated musical format.
P.S. I LOVE ROCK AND ROLL TOO.
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Posted By: CaptainQuark
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 21:50
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No offence taken, m8. I think it takes someone of a more complex and philosophical nature to appreciate prog. Your average "must have it now and it must be quick" person on the street has neither the time nor, in most cases, the intelligence to sit down and listen to music.
In the UK, at least, most people go out to a club on a Friday night with the express purpose of getting so drunk that they fall over/puke their guts up/can't remember what they did. They hear cr@p music all the time they're there. I guess they listen to the same cr@p all through the week in anticipation of the coming weekend of drunken loutishness. Jeez, am I showing my age? ------------- Erithacus Ordinary morals are for ordinary people ~ Aleister Crowley |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 22:26
| Man...Why the controversy?!! As I and others said, what we mean is, THERE ARE SOME ELEMENTS IN MUSIC THAT YOU'LL APPRECIATE MORE if you are a musician OR IF YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT MUSIC THEORY at least.... But I insist: anyone with an OPEN MIND and ART SENSIBILITY may like, may love prog..... and I repeat: there ARE MUSICIANS WHO DON'T HAVE THAT, too....so please, don;t take offense where no offense was meant to be done....Gee.. |
Posted By: thecool
Date Posted: November 03 2006 at 23:36
| ofcourse prog is for musicians! we musicians are a step above regular folk, our brains are more developed i guess. |
Posted By: progadder
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 07:45
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I can't play a note but LOVE prog. ------------- There's an angel standing in the sun ... |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 07:49
I can prove you wrong 100 times, starting with very bad art cover choices. Musicians, as such, are many times much to devoted to plain music theory, and don't take the time to go to the eye of the issue: Phenomenology. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 07:53
Expose a prog fan to 50 hours of yodeling non stop. Then throw 20 more hours of traditional African music. Progger will explode like a snail in a microwave. You talk too much about format, and yet you say nothing about content. The notes and the instrument are just formal elements, you are missing the content, the interrelated meanings, etc. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 07:54
But you can't always get the content without the "formal elements". |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 07:57
You can't at all. But Art is not focused on format, but in the relations between elements and meanings. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: owenrees82
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:04
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All music is for whoever wants to listen to it. I suppose the majority of 'non-musicians' can't relate or understand complex music, since they have had 4/4 rhythmic pop songs shoved down their throats since birth. Similarly to jazz, most people can't understand complex harmony and is the reason they say jazz sounds rubbish. I believe that you are more likely to relate to the complex music styles if you understand what is happening. Either way - if you like it, listen to it. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:05
But you have to understand the format to get the art to understand the relations between the elements and meanings. |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:08
¿Are there elements in sex that you'll appreciate more if you are a porno star?. Sorry, but cognitive theory says otherwhise. You just need a conceptual map to get the whole picture, even if the terms to describe certain sensations or perceptions are not the oficial ones. ¿A musician invented music?. The most innovative musicians usually don't know a thing about music, they just explore and develope language on their own. John Cage and others looked for an exit to plain music score and notes and formal elemnts, since it is in human nature to produce sounds and rythm. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:12
You have to know about words to understand words. Appart from deaf poeple, I really doubt that a single person exist wihout ever being exposed to music. that's as much format as you need. Complex void structure is less interesting than simple structure with profound meaning. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:29
Right,by your logic, you have to know music to understand music. But you can still like it without understanding it. I have seen people who like prog and eventually want to understand music better and pick up an instrument and , eventually, become a musician. |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:38
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No, it is impossible for we humans to not trace those conceptual maps instantaneously. With time, they get richer. Playing an instrument won't make you understand music better, as seen on Kenny G.
Being exposed to music even one time will create a nmemonic image; a memory. With further exposure, the memory will be almost automatically compared with other stored memories, and the map is built. With vast exposure, the map gets intrincated, and your possibility of expression within that particular language (code) evolves. If not to play music, to describe it and use it as a vehicle of asbtract thought. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:41
Playing an instrument can help you understand it better, not make you understand it better. |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:42
Listening to tons and reading about the construction behind can also help. ¿Know any visual arts critic?. They don't paint, they master the particular codes that validates art forms. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:45
I agree. Being a musician is just one of the ways to understand it better. If you read a lot on the reasons why it sounds good that would help too. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:47
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For instance the Beatles songs sound good, and they used certain chord sequences. People that read into the chord changes they use see how complex they were without knowing how to play it, but still understand why it sounds good without actually playing it.
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Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:55
I think even the Beatles themselves didn't knew any theoric reason about those chords. Anyway, is not just the chord. There is always a intention behind a comunicative act, such as art in general. If not, you get Dream Theaterated: pure instrumental masturbation with no purpose, no end, no goal, no beggining, no nothing. sometimes, I suspect that those guys are just testing the instruments. They are like a DEMO band for yamaha and ensoniq and other brands. They are the finest example of just adding weird chords by the book and with not thought to sustain or justify those chord choices. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:57
Yeah the Beatles didn't even know how complex it was, they just thought it sounded good. But I wouldn't know about you Dream Theater statement because I currently have been unable to listen to them. |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:58
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Sorry there, Dream Theater fans. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 09:00
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Nobody needs to play an instrument to appreciate music!
As an analogy of sorts, how many people sit in a car as a passenger and become knowledgable about the intricacies of the highway code? Quite a few apparently from my experience of back seat drivers. How many drive very well but don't even know how to open the bonnet? when i learned to drive any working knowledge of an internal combustion engine wasn't mandatory but you were expected to know the basics, this has helped when knowing when something was mechanically faulty, or what to do when a breakdown occurs (or you can call the AA!).
So no, you don't need to be a musician to appreciate Prog - but playing gives you a deeper insight into how it is structured and created. -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 09:01
They just needed their emotions reflected as sound. As for Dream Theater, there are samples here, I guess. Maybe you'll like them, since there is always a personal filter on appreciation. That is way, on matters of symbols and systems of production of them, meaning is so variable. It is also impossible for two people to hear the same thing in any given abstract composition. The same goes for seeing, reading, etc. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 09:06
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Blargh...
Nej Hujomp klohjgedee flurrr!!! ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 11:49
In a way, saying prog is for musicians only is like saying David Lynch only makes movies for Director Universities
------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 11:51
With that you justify your ridiculous bashing against Dream Theater?  ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 15:55
...Again with the textbook answers.... good memory, really good.
Let's not use the word appreciate then, let's say that a musician may RECOGNIZE things that the non-musician will not, like purely musical intricacies, like a person with no knowledge may think a particular part is impossible to play while the one that knows a little bit knows how it's played (it happened to me when I was not yet a drummer, I used to wonder and be amazed at fills or rhythms that later on I understood where not that difficult or not that original)....Now can you say this isn't so? Let's try not to explain everything with books of language, linguism and what your teacher todl you....let's use our own words every once in a while..... I INSIST: YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A MUSICAN TO LOVE OR APPRECIATE MUSIC, but AT LEAST FOR CERTAIN "MEANINGLESS" (for you) DETAILS, IT HELPS...... don;t compare sex with musici.... even animals have sex....it's a primal instinct for our conservation....It's a great thing, too, but hey, don;t compare it to music, for these are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS...YOU DON;T HAVE TO STUDY OR LEARN ANYTHING TO HAVE SEX (some practive helps, off course) , BUT EVEN SELF-TAUGHT MUSICIANS HAVE TO LEARN SOMETHING FROM ANOTHER SOURCE....
Now, I wait for the textbook answer..... and hey! I'm telling you this: you know a lot about meanings and language.... DID YOU STUDY IT, OR READ IT IN BOOKS AT LEAST, OR YOU CAME FROM THE WOMB KNOWING ALL THESE???
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Posted By: andu
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 16:02
hello, the man was joking, pretty good humour actually ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 18:25
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yeah, i think I may have lost it.... but to anyone that still doesn't get it:
forget what we said about being a musician to appreciate prog.... it could help... or it could make things worse...whatever you prefer.... the thing is, if you enjoy music, whatever kind of music, if it fills your heart and mind, if you are LIVING it, man, you are doing it the right way, whether you know what a minor scale and a diminished seventh is or not, and maybe when you know about stuff like that, you tend to square your music and over analyze it...in the end, is music, and not classical music, but good rock music, so enjoy it..... my sincere greetings to every progger, for this forum gives chance to good discussion....I LOVE YOU ALL (in a Flower Kings kind of way, not in a Celine Dion kind of way, if you know what I mean)
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Posted By: blbx93
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 21:19
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Most musicians have a higher appreciation for music. This is why America needs music in school, so the garbage on the radio might one day be put to a final resting spot where it belongs.
I hate high school!
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Posted By: tardis
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 21:21
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Prog is for musicians only. Those who do not play an instrument and attempt to listen to prog will be hunted down and exterminated. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 04 2006 at 22:11
Good idea, but i'd seize power first through a coup d'etat and bring down conglomerates like viacom, mainly viacom, owner of MTV, that is, for my point of view, music's true MURDERER, the true ANTICHRIST.....
And after that, let's teach people some music.... the thing is, we got to get rid of MTV and Hiphop and songs about bithces, cars and golden teeth first..... and the second problem: ALL the subculture surrounding it! (movies, tv shows, etc...)
Let's face it, it's a lost cause.....With the way America's religion (MONEY) operates, whatever makes millions is good, ergo, even if we teach music, what we'll have is thousands of hiphop producers.... and maybe 5 rock musicians, maybe 3 jazz, maybe 1 classical performer....and maybe a prog-rock musician..... But it's not possible.....
So we better enjoy good music while it lasts.... luckily, cd's last a LOONg time..... so we better appreciate music wheter we know about it or not, for its DYING
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