The Prog-Metal controversy
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Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42403
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Topic: The Prog-Metal controversy
Posted By: Raff
Subject: The Prog-Metal controversy
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 13:45
Many people will probably be surprised seeing me start a thread by this title. Indeed, it is well known here than I am no big fan of Prog-Metal, and that I have a reputation for making fun of Dream Theater . However, I think that very often the best arguments in favour of something are put forward by people who have an impartial attitude, as it is my case.Reading through many posts in the forums, I've been able to notice a very hostile attitude towards Prog-Metal on the part of many members. As it happens with Prog-Related, many seem to ignore the 'prog' part and only see the 'metal' one - and this sparks off a very prejudiced attitude. In fact, anything to do with 'metal' is often seen as the preserve of rough, uneducated, overall unpleasant people who are only interested in loud noises and unintelligible vocals. Alternatively, some seem to think Prog-Metal only means DT clones noodling away for hours on their instruments and sporting very cheesy album titles and covers. In neither case is the view of the phenomenon a positive, constructive one. I am a novice to the world of PM. However, being curious by nature, I've often listened to the MP3s provided on this site, and have been surprised by the variety and depth of the music on offer. While symphonic power metal in the Nightwish or Blind Guardian mould doesn't interest me too much, I've found myself attracted by bands such as Mastodon or Opeth (though I'd be lying if I said I'm too keen on growling vocals), or even by some of the more obscure acts I've happened to listen to. Therefore, even if I will probably never be a devotee, I see the validity of the whole genre, as well as its undeniably progressive nature. Though I understand the doom'n'gloom that too often characterises the lyrical content of these bands can be offputting to many, I also think PM doesn't deserve the constant attacks it receives on this forum and elsewhere, or the fear that it is in some ways 'taking over' the site. The members of the PM team deserve kudos for the work they've been doing so far, swimming against the tide and unearthing bands that, while they may not be to everyone's taste, give new meaning to the word 'prog'. |
Replies:
Posted By: glass house
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 13:54
| Me being not a total fan of PM like some of the bands there like Fates Warning, Wolverine, Opeth and Dead Soul Tribe. People who bash the genre should not listen to it or dig deeper into the whole genre. It is very diverse!! |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 13:56
Thanks, Raffaella, great post! 
I've always been surprised why you and Micky like Mastodon so much, as they don't seem to be a particularly pleasant band. Perhaps you should try Isis and Neurosis. ------------- sig |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 14:03
Let's just say it's not my cup of T.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 14:09
We saw them live in Rome in June, and were quite positively impressed. When in the US, we bought Blood Mountain, and listened to it often. As to Isis and Neurosis, I've seen their CDs in Rome, and I think I'll give them a try, as I've heard very positive things about them. Hopefully this thread of mine won't go the same way of the 'progressive vs prog' one... |
Trickster F. wrote:Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 14:10
very very well said, Raff.... have a clappy or two...
 While I agree completely with your post, I just wanted to highlight this section in particular, because I actually think the PM team have quite a job on their hands these days.... new Prog Metal bands are springing up all over the world in great numbers; some are plain copyists (although often quite good ones) while others do push the progressive boundaries out still further...
being able to objectively analyse so many new bands within a booming market cannot be an easy one, and Jody and team really do deserve some recognition for their contribution to this site.... ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Drakk
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 14:17
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I think a good portion of that prejudice comes from the fact that many people, willfully or not, regard all metal, as GhostRider said, as lound, unintelligent and w**kerous, if you will.
However, there are great many types, styles and takes on the genre as well. Bands like Subterreanean Masquerade and maudlin of the Well blend many genres into the tapestry as well as metal, and bands like SGM, uneXpect and others have unique spins on the whole metal ideal.
It's really about whether or not people are going to try to look for the bands that are a-typical or prototypical of the whole Prog-Metal genre. Most ingorance is willful. ------------- [QUOTE=darkshade] [QUOTE=Sckxyss] I'm disappointed - neither of these players are avant-garde! Al di Meola. [/QUOTE] haha i know. but the poll itself is avant-garde [/QUOTE] |
Posted By: Cesar Inca
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 14:21
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IMHO, the current mos tinteresting side of progmetal lies in instrumental bands that blend the standards of PM with math-rock and other sources (fusion, Crimsonian psychedelia, post-rock), and by doing so, taking the genre to new frontiers: I'm thinking of Canvas Solaris, Octopus (from Chile), Autómata (also from Chile).
Kind regards.
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 14:45
| Prog metal is just like any other genre. There's some good and even more crap (cynical I know.) I think the thing that puts people off is the fanb0ism that some prog metal enthusiasts seem to display. It's not so much a thing I've seen on this site, but mainly in just in general, across the net. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 14:50
....... ........ ........ ..........I thank Raffaella in behalf of the Prog-Metal Team for such a good, intelligent, impartiatl post... specially she being, as she said, "a flawed person who doesn't like DT" (
...MISQUOTE ALERT)Sadly, many people here think that us adding prog-metal bands is turning the Archives into the Metal-Archives... What many (ALL) of those people fail to realize is that, as with any subgenre in prog, there are countless bands that deserves addition, and there's no "limit" in the number of bands per genre, but rather MUSICAL REQUIREMENTS that have to be achieved in order for a band being included here. All of the bands, no matter what controversy their addition may have caused, have been analyzed and approved by the pm-team, from which I'm just the newest, most gallant member.
 .... Also, keep in mind:
band in Prog metal: 380
Bands in PA: 3081
So if you're afraid PA is turning into a metal site, please, relax, take a cup of tea (or of T if you prefer, I suggest it) and realize that prog-metal still doesn't amount to more than the 10% of the content of PA, and many, many of those 380 bands in the genre have ZERO reviews.... The focus here is still Symphonic Prog and other "most accepted" genres of porogressive music.
But, as any "progressive music" research site (AKA Encyclopedia) HAS to have, it includes ALL of the genres. Not only those which may be "less strident" but also metal.
Prog-metal may be, today, whether you like it or not, the dominant, driving force in progressive-rock music. At least in terms of popularity, to avoid futile, useless discussions. So, shouldn't be include it in PA?
To those who don't care (valid), don't like (valid), hate (kind of valid, as taste goes) or just dismiss metal without having heard a single note of it (NOT valid), keep in mind that what you say about this genre, it can be said about that one you love. Don't get me started in possible useless generalizations that I can come up to dismiss other genres. I just did it in another thread as an example of how easy it is to attack things you don't know and sound smart. Of course, as I also said, that's the kind of "argumentations" that are easier to tear down than a tower made of cards.
All genres are valid. All genres have some great acts, some fantastic acts, some awful acts.
Even those great acts, some people will not like them. Even those awful acts, some people will love them.
RESPECT metal, that's all. If you don't like it, what the hell are you doing listening to it in the first place?
And enjoy the other 2781 bands that are listed in PA that aren't "noise and distortion".
If you so much want to see more bands in other genres, COLLABORATE.
------------- 
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 14:54
| I don't listen to much prog-metal it's too harsh for an old man like me, but I am very impressed with the often high level of musicality and dicipline these bands have. Some of it is very creative and metal lyrics have improved a lot over the years. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 14:56
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I've seen people say that Progmetal 'doesn't really exist'... that's news to me, as I've been watching it grow since Maiden and Ozzy's first couple records and I agree the best stuff is the Extreme Tech end of PM.. Blotted Science, Collapsar, Counter-World Experience, BtA, Sleep Terror, F***ing Champs |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 15:01
Good Lord, I really need to listen to more Prog Metal these days. I only know one band well out of that list, and some others I just sampled during my days in the PMT. I guess a Prog-Metal reviewer does not a Prog-Metal specialist make?
I agree with you, the best Prog-Metal is usually the extreme, but not necessarily in its meaning "aggressive", just greatly different from the rest and pushed beyond limits, radically unique, if that makes any sense. ------------- sig |
Posted By: Snipergoat
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 15:04
| I don't know why people hate DT so much, they're a good band.. just listen to SFAM, Six Degrees, Octavarium etc... :D |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 15:06
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Prog metal rawks!
70% of the PM bands I have tried listening to are exceptional, and I feel we beat up the genre a lot more than needed.
I know countless people who listen to prog metal, but have no idea what prog rock is at all, and thats fine. No matter what way you dice it up, it's a very progresive genre, and is vital to progressive music! ------------- 
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 15:17
| Thank you for your concern...these anti-prog metal or should I say just 'metal' in general, are pissing me off...its like an endless horde of attacks. |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 15:20
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Some of todays best... ah, what the hell, some of the best bands ever come out of that genre: Opeth, Tool, Pain of Salvation... Lately Im really into the more extreme avant garde metal bands like Unexpect. A very varied genre... in fact, if it wasnt for Art rock (now eclectic) it very well could be the most varied genre in the site! ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 15:39
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Thank you to Ghost Rider for her intelligent and impartial post. The Prog Metal genre may be the most diverse genre on PA as far as the extremes between prog on the hard rock side, prog on the thrash side, prog on the death/doom/black metal side and prog on the symphonic metal side. There is an extremely wide range of bands that are covered under this umbrella. Personally, I tend to hang out on the hard rock and symphonic side of metal versus the thrash and death/doom/black metal side of things. There are probably additional sides like this math rock that I am not thinking about. So what is the point of my post? The prog metal category is sort of like a landlocked country. It has borders on many of the different genres of prog. If your listening tendencies tend to reside in one of these "prog border countries" then there is a good chance that even though you might not like prog metal bands on the other extreme of prog metal, there is a good chance that you would like the prog metal bands that reside on the border of your prog genre of choice. That being said, I am not sure if prog metal has a border on the RIO/Avant/Zeuhl genre but I'll leave that up to those wiser and more informed than myself. On the other hand, you may be from Iraq, and you can't stand your Iranian neighbors. ------------- 
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 16:19
DB - I say you're more than O.K. . You've hit the nail on the head. Some here at PA fear that one genre they dislike might get a bit more attention than theirs. Yet, they fail to take into consideration that enthusiasm for a prog genre, any genre, is good. Some prog-metal bands have been influenced by prog acts outside of PM. And many other of the prog sub-genres have their share of newer bands that take some things from PM acts. But, as a general rule or observation ... some old folks (& I don't mean that age-wise) simply cannot tolerate LOUD guitars. The song Musical Box was heavy, but dominated by Banks' Organ (no, not his penis, but his instrument; I mean his keyboard) . So that was O.K. Crimson's sound revolves around Fripp's tricks. But that's O.K. , cause he mixes in jazz & avant-garde influences, even if they sometimes sound a bit noisier coming from his amplifier. Porcupine Tree is a step too far, because they've moved on in their progress & rely too much on the guitars now. To the point that some will claim they are prog metal (???) So for you who dislike PM, here's an exercise for your ears & your Mind - when listening to a PM group, imagine the guitar parts, whether chords, leads or solos, being played by organ, mellotron, or moog. Then ask yourself if maybe the choice of instruments explains your dislike of the genre. P.S. I tried that with Iron Maiden's debut. Man, I swear I was reminded of Triumvirat, Heep, some heavier Genesis & Gentle Giant, and most particularly Heldon (???) . ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: jmcdaniel_ee
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 16:34
Although it's not classified as metal, Mr. Bungle might be pretty close to RIO/Avant metal.
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Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 17:02
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I think a major problem is that some people only scratch the surface of progressive metal, bands like Dream Theater, Tool, and Opeth, which can be polarizing bands to certain people. But there are many very good bands in progressive metal. If you ask me, the polish band Indukti are THE representative progressive metal band (living up fully to the name of the sub-genre), and probably a relatively few amount of people know them here. Yet, most of the people I've encountered here like them very much, even those who are not big metal fans. (By the way, I am not belittling other bands when I think that Indukti beats out other bands as the most representative of progressive metal.) |
Posted By: paloz
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 17:07
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Prog-metal has some pros, but also a true con: it is toooooooooooooooo long! All these albums have a running time of nearly 60 minutes. I can't listen easily to them. I really can't. I add that I preferred if more people knew about classic prog, and less about DT and things like this.. |
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 17:10
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^ That's just a generalization, the one album of the band I had previously mentioned (Indukti) runs under 50 minutes (if I'm not mistaken), and it's an excellent album. And progressive metal isn't the only sub-genre under which bands make albums 60+ minutes, it happens in many modern albums and even in older progressive rock albums (like double albums). |
Posted By: spacemetal
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 17:29
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Dream Theater (and their clones) and Tool don't really appeal to me very much, but I love prog metal. I think some may listen to those and say "Prog metal doesn't appeal to me", but there is so much diversity within the genre. After all, prog isn't a genre, it's a quality. I prefer more of the doom and black metal that is progressive. If you haven't already, I challenge you to listen to Omnio by In The Woods... and say that it didn't expose a new side of "prog metal" to you. |
Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 17:33
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Actually I'm trying hardly to get into the genre.... I also try not to bash it somehow.... It's just another genre of prog music, which unfortunately recieve a lot more destructive critics by prog lovers, perhaps due to its historical location. I reckon I used to bash the genre and that was before I listened to bands like Ayreon, Green Carnation and Neurosis. My opinion has changed positively of course, but still thinking it's a dissapointing way to make progressive music  ------------- The best you can is good enough... |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 20:23
Excellent thread Raff! Prog metal is incredibly veried, I love Dream Thater, Pain of Salvation, Tool, Maudlin of the Well, Kayo Dot, Mastodon, Opeth, Epica and others, andy many of these bands only have a few things in commen. Its a genre that will take a lot of time for anyone to get the measure of properly, and most wont because they give up after a few bands. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Melisma
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 20:31
This is sooo TRUE! I said the same thing to a friend of mine and won this point across!!!
Now the dude digs the PM!!!! ------------- Melisma Life is a trip! Death is an odyssey... |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 22:35
One thing that I find is that any band with any amount of distorted metal guitar or a song or two that incorporates a thrash beat is lumped into PM. I was rather surprised after hearing Unexpect for the first time to see them in PM when the pervasive flavor to their music is RIO. There are others like Pain of Salvation who at times sound like a metal band, but in the case of 3 albums, use a definitive metal sound less than half the time. And I don't mean to point this observation at PA, this is something that has gone on amongst the general musical populace for years. Jethro Tull, a Heavy Metal grammy? Come on! I guess you have to put everybody somewhere.
Exactly. I have maintained for years that the choice of instruments can make or break a number 1 hit. Even in prog, Roundaboiut would not have had nearly the appeal amongst prog fans had it been played on bowsaws, accordians and 55 gallon drums. How many metal bands have peformed classical pieces? Like Scatterbrain performing Mozart's Sonata #3 and their precoursor Ludichrist doing The Barber of Seville. The symphony crowd didn't really go nuts for them, regardless of their accuracy to the originals. The instruments did not appeal to them.
Its all about what you were raised with musically. So many don't hear the prog elements in PM, I don't hear them in Electronic. No big deal. Somebody listed the number of bands on PA versus the number of those labeled PM. IMHO, as PM has only bloomed in the last 15-20 years, the numbers indicate that progressive growth in the metal community has been proportionally higher than other sub-genres. Not a knock on anybody, just analyzing an empirical view. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 22:52
That reminds me of this album I heard of that was Christmas carols performed on office equipment. Never actually heard it, but it might actually be quite fun to listen to once or twice. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 23:00
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While I am no fan of growling, incessant thrumming, or Dream Theater , I have found a few prog-metal bands that I like very much. Right now I rate Indukti, Osada Vida, and Riverside right up there with my top bands. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: FruMp
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 02:56
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Thank you for making this topic, it really annoys me when ignorant people are always saying how progressive metal isn't 'real prog' or it can't attain the same level of progression as 'standard prog' (even though the opposite is true as progressive metal can venture into both the lightest and the heaviest possible territories of music). The main problem with people's perception of prog metal is in my view Dream Theatre - they are a love them or hate them band and they happen to be the most well known prog metal band. I personally despise them because they are way too cheesy for my tastes and there are many people who feel the same but who dismiss the entire prog-metal genre because of it. ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 03:39
In my opinion, this is at least in part true. However, as I stated in my initial post, the real problem lies in that small, seemingly inoffensive 'metal' word. I am quite sure most of the people who slam PM on this board have never really listened to anything but perhaps DT, but still feel entitled to say it doesn't belong here - which of course is extremely offensive to those people who work hard in order to find new, interesting, innovative bands to add to our DB. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 04:03
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The main issue I have, as I know others also have, is that I find it hard to hear the progressiveness in Prog Metal.
Yes, many Prog metal artists get better in terms of playing techniques.
Yes, the music may change from album to album - but most albums are pretty homogenous.
The main issue I have is that every Prog metal album I've ever heard, without exception, is an excercise in tarting up the old song formula.
And FORM is the most important thing to me when I listen to Progressive Rock.
This doesn't make Prog Metal lesser or anything like that - although I've yet to hear any that really tickles my taste buds.
What it does is to set it apart from Progressive Rock (or rather, early Progressive Rock) which was about structured improvisation as much as it was about using exotic techniques and instrumentation.
Because the essence is so different, I think that is what causes the divides - between people who are looking for the essence of early prog (and not finding it), and those who simply enjoy Prog Metal for what it is.
Both camps are right, so this will never be resolved.
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 06:24
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I have always felt that King Crimson's 21st Century Schizoid Man was the first prog metal song. -------------
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Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 06:34
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Very well said madam.
There is indeed more to Prog Metal than Dream Theater, but thanks to them, the genre remained alive, kicking and accessible. I know few people who get turned off to the whole genre because of thier negative bias with Dream Theater. Yes, they maybe cheesy at times and overly famous among (stereotyped) youngsters ( one reason why I think some veer away from DT's music is because they do not want to associate themselves with the fans ), but it does not change thier influnce to other bands and to the whole sub genre itself. I myself learned to shut up about the artists and music that doesn't interest me, so I'm hoping others too will learn to be sensitive and just be quiet about some things that don't appel to them.DT have done something good in my listening habits and the way I appreciate music in general, so that must be something. ------------- 
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Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 06:40
Maybe because it is also considered the fist real progressive rock song.  -------------
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Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 06:53
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i think that PM is a very important genre and DT a very important - at least - band... without these there would've have been that many prog rock fans in here, including me.. ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:07
that's very true.... one day I was pissing around the Welcome Newbie section and noticed that ..like 8 posters in a row had listed DT as one of th groups that led them here. Personally I see DT as the latter day ELP. On the surface at least... to the unitiated.. or the casual listener. The focus is on upon shear w**kery and technical skills rather than the music itself. Anyhow.. for me personally... I think ELP made it sound incredible.. DT for me just sounds boring. The difference... ELP was blazing trails and had a heavy interest in bringing classical music to the 'masses' .... the motivation for DT? Who knows.. selling albums... making magazine covers and top instrumentalists lists. I've always been surprised by those, like Ivan, that are surprised that Raff.. and me specifically, like some prog metal. I did really like Mastodon and LOVE the hell out of Opeth. We just don't like DT... but would never damn a whole sub-genre because it's most popular group....is not to our tastes. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:12
out of curiousity... why.... because it is 'heavy' ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:17
I always considered Black Sabbath's Symptom of the Universe to be the first (proto-)Prog Metal song. ------------- sig |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:19
nothing to be resolved Mark....
As far as liking it.. it is simply a matter of taste. As far as
the progressive quotient. That again is in the eye of the
beholder.. for those.. like you and me.. prog is not as much a
genre defined by complexity and technical skills which has
exactly become what you said.. a formulamatic musical genre based on
those things. Not 'progresive' in the least. Others
though... it is defined by those base musical elements... it might not
be progressive in the LEAST.. but it is still prog.This came up in an interview James did with a modern Italian group.. his thoughts on the albums sum up to me ..what prog is. There are two things about the new album that make it so stunning. First, the sense that "anything can happen" when you listen. It is not strangled by convention. It is wide open, sonically spacious, adventurous, and free. You are swept under the spell in the first song and held in anticipation until the end. that in a nutshell is what prog is about... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:25
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:35
Micky, I've had the same impression, really. There's something really special in the rhythmical interplay of drum, bass and guitar riffs on the heavier songs there which I did not find in any prog of the 70s, but I find it in thrash and prog-metal. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:41
hmmm.... I'll put that on and listen for that .... and wake the neighbors at this early hour hahahhahah. I honestly haven't listened to it a good while. Not exactly my favorite album from them. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:49
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Keep us informed.
------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:50
when you hear projectile vomiting.... you'll know I've reached Moonchild  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 08:05
Moonchild is one of my favourite songs on that album as it sums up that whole "not knowing what's going to happen next" feeling - the way the tones just hang there, suspended, like moonbeams, as ghostly coils of sound drift past, painting opaque and dark-blue imagery of clouds obscuring the view temporarily as you watch, hypnotised...
Man, I feel a review coming on... ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 08:06
DT will always be one of my all time favorite bands. If you don't like them - fine ... but they've been blazing trails for many of the bands that followed, even including bands like Mastodon and Opeth (even Mikael himself likes DT btw). Their motivation? Well, they're not selling many albums. And music magazine covers ... well, I guess I'll never understand how people who call themselves fans of sophisticated music could possibly bash musicians for being virtuosic. And it doesn't have to exclude musicality and emotion at all. DT write excellent tunes, and they're much more emotional and musical than ELP ever were IMHO. I appreciate what you and some others are trying to do here ... promoting prog metal and everything. But you can't really do that and bash one of the pivotal prog metal bands in the process ... DT defined prog metal in the 90s, and the more experimental bands can only make the genre more diverse - but they certainly can't "un-define" what came before. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 08:12
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MIke... it wasn't my intention to bash..... only express an opinion on
why some do see PM .. or DT the way they do. I'll drop it if you
take offense. This is a nice thread and I don't want to see it
descend into mudsligging if people can't accept dissenting opinions ON
the topic at hand.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 08:18
ahhhh... in the middle of it speak of the devil. You are quite right about 'not knowing what is going to happen next' . I love that in prog.. one problem though for me about Moonchild.... The problem is.... nothing did happen... it didn't GO anywhere. Not for me at least. As always... I'd love to read your review. Maybe it will be a roadmap of sorts ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 08:23
I also have a reputation for making fun of Dream Theater. Just glance at any page in the STC thread...
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 09:02
Wait a second, haven't I expressed the same point of view a few months ago (in between my 2nd and 3rd farewells)? I have this sense of de ja vu, as if we discussed this somewhere before. ------------- sig |
Posted By: Asphalt
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 09:22
With regards to the 21st Century Man, not only because it's heavy, it's also aggressive. Those two are not always lumped together. You could argue Iron Maiden is heavy, but I just don't see it as truly aggressive. With 21st... KC managed to bring them together [and, of course, a little bit of funky jazz jamming in between]. In a lot of ways I feel that KC is responsible for the whole genre of math metal. And call me crazy, but sometimes I even hear KC in Meshuggah. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 10:21
Yes. Because it is 'heavy'. Because the vocals are semi-screamed in a metal type voice. Because the instruments are bringing forth that heavy metal thunder. All these things lead me to believe that this was the first progressive metal song.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 11:04
Please, by all means go on. I just expressed my opinion about the recent trend to praise prog metal and bash DT-like bands simultaneously. It's something which I can't support, but I would not want to forbid it either. Opinions are free! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 11:13
Mike, I started this thread as a way to give recognition to the genre and to the work your team has been doing for months. If all you can see is the DT-bashing, then I am afraid my effort was completely in vain. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 11:31
there is probably something to be said for that.. for those simultaneous opinions may be hinting on a generally recognized opinion. I'll toss that opinion out , that DT may be great players... but they couldn't make good music together if their lives depended on it. .
Of course anyone who made a blanket statement like that over Prog
Metal would be a fool. Prog Metal is much more than DT and their ilk. That
was Raffaella's point. Those who concentrate on displays of
instrumental skill, like DT do... usually do, or can be argued may
do, so at the expense of good music. That is what I think
many see, who have problem with DT. . Agree or not.. that is what
some people think.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 11:43
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^ Considering that DT win virtually every poll ... I think that the majority of all people who like any prog metal band at all also like DT. And it still seems to me that you're one of those people who hear virtuosity and disciplined playing and then automatically turn away ... I submit that these attributes don't preclude feeling and emotion, and I'm glad that most people agree about it, considering the various polls and also the ratings of the top DT albums. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 11:49
sure ... a large number of people go apesh*t over this group. Great. More power to them. This thread is however, in part, .. for those who aren't ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 11:59
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^ ok ... let's not continue this argument here. I'll just go apesh*t in private.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 12:25
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Metal as a genre is as diverse, eclectic and experimental as progressive rock so it is inevitable that the two genres will intersect and impinge musically at every point along the scale from Jazz-Rock/Fussion, through Prog-Folk, Electronic, Post-Rock/Experimental and Advant to full-blown, let's drag out the whole orchestra Symphonic. With a few notable exceptions, we group all these together within Prog-Metal because Metal forms the overriding content, yet all the other elements are there for the listening. Unfortunately the really difficult part at the moment is finding them. For example Ephel Duath produce some amazing Math Rock/Metal/Jazz-rock music, which is great, but come here looking for more bands of a similar flavour and you land in the middle of 500+ PM bands and leave none the wiser. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 12:30
Very good point, I would be interested in checking out more extreme jazz-metal-avant whatever if it had its own category and I knew where to find it. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 12:36
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There was a recent previous thread where Mike was discussing that the Prog Metal team was considering a sub-genre split similar to what recently happened to Art Rock in order to try to better group bands within Prog Metal with similar leanings. Hopefully, this will do a great service to this genre. -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 12:39
| I think that at this point, because of the sheer number of bands in PM, a split like the one we had in Art Rock is inevitable. If we want the site to be a guide to people, having over 500 bands lumped together under the same umbrella is not going to be of any use to anyone. Of course, there will be endless debates on how to split the bands, what name to give them, and so on and so forth... Eventually, though, this will be achieved, and the site will be all the better for that - even if the naysayers, the enemies of PM, will start carrying on about the site being taken over by Metal. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 12:43
ooohhhh... can't wait for that debate... I agree completely though... it serves the site to have them split up.. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 12:45
The nay sayers will continue to say the site is being taken over buy metal whether or not anything happens, its just a good job that no-one with more than a couple of brain cells listens to them. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 12:50
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To that I say go take a look at the Metal Archives website. Out of curiosity I went to check that site out and they were talking and listing tons of metal bands that I have never even heard of, which currently don't appear on PA. I am guessing that most of these bands never will appear on PA and deservedly so because they are metal bands, not prog metal bands. But that is definitely a determination that I would leave up to those much more knowledgable than me when it comes to these matters. -------------
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 12:57
| There is a numerous amount of sub-genres in prog-metal....I wonder what it would be split in to if it will be going to. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 13:00
sure.. .have fun http://www.proggnosis.com/GENRE_PMSGGuide.asp - http://www.proggnosis.com/GENRE_PMSGGuide.asp ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 13:00
for the answers to that I recommend reading through this thread, where the subject is already in debate: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41802 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41802 ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 13:02
Oooooo I want Sub-Genre Not Assigned .. I *love* those bands ------------- What? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 13:03
I ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 13:33
In fact the idea is much older than that thread ... have a look at this: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13558 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13558 Feel free to revive it!  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 13:35
Great topic and good post. Yes, I might even dig a bit deeper into PM myself if I had a better idea where the bands fell in terms of sound. I've personally always felt that the very "metal" aspect of prog metal was its most limiting factor. No matter how diverse a bands material is, if there is always a chugging, heavily distorted guitar, the sonic palette is going to limited. Of course, I'm generalizing here, but that has been my experience with a lot of PM bands that I otherwise might have liked. And I don't really need to imagine other instruments to appreciate what they are doing. But the constant heavy distortion guitars of so many of these bands just gets old after a few songs for me. There are, of course, always exceptions. And I even like a lot of DT's work, and respect them even more. I suspect that a lot of the bashing they receive has as much to do with their visibility and popularity as it does with the actual music (hey, the term "prog snob" was coined for a reason ). I personally think the band has a good deal of musical integrity and is doing what they do because they love to do it.............not because they want to win awards and be on magazine covers. But they are still far from my favorite band (maybe in my top 100........maybe). My opinion on them, just like anyone else's, is just that, an opinion. It has no bearing on the quality or integrity of their music.Other PM bands I like are Pain of Salvation and Opeth. And I agree about Indukti being the best current example of "progressive metal" (though with the understanding that my knowledge of the genre is quite limited compared to how many bands their are). So like PM or hate it, I think we have to accept that it is probably most responsible for prog remaining vital and important to a larger musical audience (larger than us geeks who like all these bands that 80%, or more, of the world has never even heard of ) |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 16:02
Good god. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 16:21
As an aside to the M word (Metal); why is that a three piece prog band - bass drums & keyboards - can be said to play symphonic prog ? If their work is not 4 part classical construction, can we assume that it's a stylistic comparison rather than a black & white all or nothing deal. Harmonium are thus classified. I still find old "granolas" (quebec & acadian back to the land hippie types) who are bewildered by such a description of their old fave. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 16:30
Just as some don't care for the moog or mellotron, some will not tolerate guitars, at least loud & heavy guitars. But at least , they could just say so , instead of arguing that the composition aspect is what they feel is not prog ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 16:48
Yes... Some people agree with what I highlighted in red... Those two statements clearly prove that for you, DT is just NOT GOOD MUSIC. But it so happens that even that depends purely on a subjective point of view. You haven't yet defined good music for all of us, you can define it only for you. The same if I started talking about post-rock and how I consider it to be the most boring of genres...... I'll get killed because the genre is more "prog" in that it has weirder structures ("forms".... yeah, right, ZERO form...), it's not a virtuosic show off (it's actually a virtuosic doze-off...) and it has barely the distortion and the noise of metal (it actually depends solely on dynamics, and the most simple ones at that).... So for me that's not good music. Is that final word? Well, for me it is, but I can't even start to think that that's what should be prevalent in this website.... with thousands of members who know what they like and how they like it...
Many happen to love metal and to find real progressive elements in metal.
The site OWNERS happen to find prog-metal a reality, not just a myth. If not from a musical point of view (they're only persons, nothing else), at least in a PRACTICAL point of view, that's it: in PA, there's a genre called "progressive-metal". And it will probably always be there. And if there are a lot of bands coming, maybe it''s because it's the most dynamic genre nowadays, maybe because there are more bands, maybe because of popularity, maybe because the world "ain't right". Whatever.
If you hate metal, TURN THE PAGE. Or, better said, SKIP. SCROLL. PRESS. CLOSE. Whatever computer word apllies. NOBODY will define here the justice or not in prog-metal being in PA. IT IS. That's all we can do about it.
In the end, all is just a matter of tastes. For all the incredible musical analysys that can show me how a Magma piece of music is the most brilliant thing this side of sunlight in mercury, I could just say "that's boring, senseless fooloing around with notes..." Yes, I could say that for me music should be simpler, easier, more enjoyable... It's not that I think it should, but I could say it, and who would prove me wrong, if there's nothing to prove?
Man! Let this rest. Progressive-metal is here.
EDIT: By the way, let me repeat:
Bands in prog-metal: 381
Bands in PA : 3082
Mmm... The math isn't showing a "taking over" by metal of PA......So relax. Don't be afraid. The big upside-down-cross-showing, pentagram-wearing, two-faced noisy metal monster is not going to eat you while you sleep.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 16:55
Count me in your corner T. -------------
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Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 16:58
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[/QUOTE] Don't be afraid. The big upside-down-cross-showing, pentagram-wearing, two-faced noisy metal monster is not going to eat you while you sleep.
AH, but you DID see that monster, did you ? ------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 16:59
Don't be afraid. The big upside-down-cross-showing, pentagram-wearing, two-faced noisy metal monster is not going to eat you while you sleep.
AH, but you DID see that monster, did you ? [/QUOTE]
MAny years ago when I was experimenting with...vegetables? -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:06
yawn..... you DT fans are all the same... this thread was about trying to show that those who DON'T care for DT still have lots to choose from and love in the PM area. Some... like you... just naturally assume that if someone doesn't like DT they are sl*gging off PM. Come off it Teo. It is all subjective... therefore... why are you getting your panties in a wad if a few of us don't care for them. I like other things I have heard within PM. DT simply isn't one of them You need to thicken that skin of yours. You can tell me PFM is a bowl of sh*t.. and you know what I'd say... in a hell of a lot less time that you took to write that post. 'oh well .. your loss.... why don't you try .....ahhhh... . .try this instead' granted you are new being a team member... think of PM and promoting it.. and less of defending your favorite groups. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:14
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I like it how whenever someone mentions there being too many DT clones, there will always be someone who will take it as a dramatic insult to DT members, their families and pets. ------------- sig |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:15
Mmmm.... This time YOU have misread me, not like the other time around. I was using what you said about DT as an EXAMPLE, and I claerly used the part where you said that virtuosic displays are not good music or that DT couldn't make good music if their lives depended on that. I was very clear with my example: THAT's SUBJECTIVE. Just like the "prog-metal isn't prog" thing or the "symphonic-prog is the best thing in the world" opinion, it's just that, AN OPINION. I used your words because they worked for what I tried to say. I have it clear that you don't like DT, and I respect that, and anyway, why should I care? Believe me, DT (the band) will continue to make their music no matter how much I love them or how much you hate them. It was just an EXAMPLE. READ.
I think PFM is sh*t. So what? No, actually I don't. I haven't even heard them. I would like to, of course. But sometimes the arrogance of their fans (not you of course) scares me away. Now please, in a hell of a lot less time that it took me to write all of that, weren't you going to say something if I commited the crime of perjuring against PFM? I don't care, neither should (and I guess DO) you.
Live in peace. I have nothing against you. If I had a problem with everyone that dislikes DT, I'd be mad at about 299.000.000 of Americans (that's counting that they have at least a million fans).
What I have something against is people MISREADING ME. So please, this time it's YOUR wrong, not mine.
All that I'm doing is promoting this genre. I ceased promoting DT a LONG TIME AGO (I'm pretty sure the PMteam wouldn't have wanted me if I still continued to be a DT-PUSH-Troll.....).
You also, focus on your team. As you probably do with great results. I don't spend my time in threads about genres I don't know about or I don't care about, so I don't know, but I'm sure you are doing a terrific job, a long-time collaborator as you are. -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:17
I love people who like to throw more incendiary stuff into the fire... who meddle in other people's discussions and try to inflate small musical arguments.... -------------
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:19
I know I did, and since I was a bad boy, he was making predictions as well....  Seriously though, I think Raff has some very good points in her initial post, even if I'm not the metal head I used to be some 15 years ago (when I was a member of the Eindhoven Student HeadBangers Front  and visited Dynamo cafe every Thursday evening). I like Ayreon, early Dream Theater (their later stuff I own but hardly ever listen), and I enjoyed Riverside at Symforce festival last month despite the bad sound. Prog-Metal is a fact, it's on PA and the team are doing a great job.  And now I'm off for some free jazz ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:20
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we'll drop it Teo... we aren't on the same page here... talking at
crosspurposes.. but the fact remains.. Raff didn't create this thread
for people to defend DT... but as a means to bring out other groups
that
we might like for those who DO write off PM because of not liking
DT. People like you.. and MIke earlier who see this an an attack
on DT are not serving the purposes of the thread. I like PM and have been enjoying it ..so with your permission... I'll continue to post to post my two cents regardling a subject I am interested in. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:22
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The T needs some vacations .... and stop being as fanboy as Mike; Micky wasn't bashing by any point; just you saw his comment as an attack to PM.. and not curiously you're both specialists on the field and are supposedly capable to spot a bashing act from an opinion as different things
------------- The best you can is good enough... |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:24
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we all work very hard here.. let's try to keep our eyes on the prize |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:30
No, we clearly aren't. I know why Raffaella created this thread and if you read one of the earlier posts in it, you'll see I greatly apllauded and agreed with its purpose. I repeat, I used your words becasue they served my purpose. I was NOT defending DT (where did I say "DT is not bad? They're great?".... Where?
)Ok, I'll drop it. Feel free to drop your two cents. Just let me drop mine without always trying to make me look as a DT-crazy-freak.... This time, you just misread me. I will stop quoting you, though, for peace purposes, as I always tend to start discussions based on NOTHING with you...
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:31
Some people need to learn that meddling in between discussion by adding fire to the flame doesn't help to keep the peace and good spirit here in PA. Those people really deserve a vacation... wait... vacation of what? -------------
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:34
Haha, I can count at least three reasons why your post is ironic without you knowing, can you? ------------- sig |
Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:35
^ Just vacation for a relaxing purpose ;) And please don't look at me as a fighter, but I just saw a clear attempt by you to add fire to a peaceful comment made here...... As Mike, you just see bad intentions against your beloved genre everywhere......
------------- The best you can is good enough... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:38
hahahah.. oh really.... when have we ever talked We tend to stay on different sides of town around here. I've got a suite at Hyatt, sipping champaign with the true prog groups, and last I saw you.. you were hangling out at the strip clubs with the latest Prog Metal additions ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:41
That's pretty natural, when I was in his position I was just about as uncontrolled and emotional about little heads and ready to pick up a fight with just a miserable excuse. You don't need a vacation from this (unless you feel more comfortable being idle, now I know I surely do), it's not an ill to cure and may not even be a negative aspect of one's presence on this site. I think it's just being into something too deeply - you certainly wouldn't see fists everywhere around you when the subject matter left you indifferente, would you?
In any case, I've been in his skin and I understand him well. ------------- sig |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:42
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END.
I won't inflate egos answering to challenges which will not help us in any way. Let's just agree some words here were incorrectly taken (or whatever you want to agree on) and continue. Prog metal lives. Period.
EDIT: Except KAyo Dot... (now I know who loves when I mention them... )-------------
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:47
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
 ------------- sig |
Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:48
This can't become a personal fight..... Hell, I not even know The T.. I'm just talking to his arguments exposed. But trust me, I ALWAYS need vacations Just take it easy, although I call him 'fanboy', supposedly an insult (though for me isn't that much....). My apologies, anyway. ------------- The best you can is good enough... |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:49
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I really dont like arguing about the rediculus hate for prog metal, so this will be my last post here!
If you dont like one band, move on! There are so many subgenres of PM I literally find it hard to beleive that it's impossible to hate all prog metal in the first place! -------------
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 17:50
Let's keep this discussion above the "barely civil" level folks.  |