Bad Lyrics in Prog
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Topic: Bad Lyrics in Prog
Posted By: ~Rael~
Subject: Bad Lyrics in Prog
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 17:36
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I am going to use one band to illustrate the worst of this plague on prog. Aryeon. Now, I'm sorry if I offended some Ayreon fans, but the lyrics he writes are just plain awful. It seems like this is the case with a lot of prog bands, and it seems as if it is most prevailant in prog metal. Now, I single out Aryeon because they seem the worst. Bad lyrics, for me, our lyrics that take away from the music. They are bad enough to make me cringe when I hear them. Maybe it's because I'm an English major and have read a lot of poetry, but I don't think this is the case. My dad, who hasn't read more than a few poems in his life, agrees. Now, don't get me wrong. I like Ayreon. But the lyrics make it hard. I have there newest album and "The Human Equation" (I think that's the name of it). I got to like THE, but it took some work. I don't know if I will accomplish the same thing with 001011001110101001. I've only listened to the first CD, which has its moments, but I hope the second CD is better, especially lyrically, but I'm not holding my breath on that count. Now, I don't want to pick only on Ayreon, so I wil risk making other people angry by listing some other bands I find this trend in, and again, my definition of bad lyrics is only when it takes away from the music. I don't read lyrics and anlyze them, it is pretty much what I hear. So, those bands are Dream Theater, Symphony X, Thought Chamber, The Flower Kings, and to an extent Evergrey, though I only have one of thier albums. I can't be alone in this thinking. ------------- I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress . . . |
Replies:
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 17:47
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They're pretty bad but what did you expect from a symph-prog-metal uber-pretentious superproject? To be honest the my main problem with Ayreon is the generic and inoffensive (despite being glossy and masterfully crafted) music. The whole thing's a little overblown, so you have to be ready for some cheese. I do like THE to a certain extent, but no more than 3 stars... I'm much more turned off by the D&D-styled power metal sagas... and dronings about The Lord a la Neal Morse. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 18:43
... are the reason why non-english bands are so popular. 
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: TheCaptain
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 18:56
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Yes, there are some awful lyrics that sometimes make me cringe mostly brought on by TFK. Seriously "With a heart bigger than America" is a pretty awful line. Unless this is making fun of the stereotypical American's girth (highly unlikely) this is pure garbage. Granted nothing could replace America to make this an acceptable line... Anyway, I have a somewhat hard time paying attention to the lyrics of any song because I usually care far more about the music. Try to focus on everything else and eventually the words will lose all meaning.
------------- Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 19:10
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Oh please, Arriving UFO and Circus of Heaven are pure cheese IMO.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 19:24
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there are some pretty terrible lyrics, but some pretty incredible ones as well. when the lyrics are bad its easy to ignore, when they're great they're hard to ignore.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 19:37
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I find prog has produced some very bad lyrics .To pretentious perhaps? Luckily I don't listen to any prog involving dungeon and dragons. I find the lyrics really depend of the context of the song,on paper they maybe excellent but if there's some dated instrumentation and vocal melody it can very easily offend my soul. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 19:47
But DT are americans and their SFAM lyrics are awful. I know a typical american would put the blame on the canadian though....
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Posted By: OzzProg
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 20:01
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Lyrics are absolutely meaningless to me. As long as the lyrics sound nice, and fit well with the music. Some lyrics don't mean anything at all if you analyze them carefully, but during the actual event of listening, they just seem to flow and create peace in your mind. I view the vocals as an instrument, and words are nothing more than a musical expression that can be played on this instrument. A good example of this would be Aisles of Plenty by Genesis; the lyrics are meaningless, but just sound so damn cool in the song. A example of lyrics that detract from the music would be Circus of Heaven by Yes, even though it would be a terrible song no matter what the lyrics were, they just seem to make it WORSE! -------------  |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 20:04
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^ based on your avy you must have great taste never liked the lyrics on Cynic's Focus, so self-involved |
Posted By: martinprog77
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 20:32
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i don't care about lyrics ,what really matters in prog is the music besides,if a want poetry i would buy a book instead of listen the mars volta  ------------- Nothing can last there are no second chances. Never give a day away. Always live for today. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 20:43
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My friends, many prog lyrics -- going back to the early days -- can be pretentious, indecipherable, inane, and probably about 40 other adjectives I could list.
However consider the alternative: popular music.
At least our prog bands are making an attempt to write something beyond the usual drivel. It may not work out so well sometimes, but let's give 'em some credit for at least trying.
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 20:46
| see: Emerson Lake and Palmer |
Posted By: Soul Dreamer
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 20:52
Completely agree with this post. The only time I get turned off by lyrics is when they are offencive as in cursing, swearing etc...meaningless lyrics make for fine vocals see Yes... ------------- To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica) |
martinprog77 wrote:Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 20:56
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Ayreon's 1010100010101010010101010101010100000000001111111111110000000000 album is one of the more recent examples of absolutely atrocious lyrics as pointed out in the OP's post. And before someone comes in and says "But it's about the concept of the album", so what? the lyrics are still terrible regardless. ------------- 
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Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 21:02
| Not defending Mr Lucassen, but he does write rock operas, which means they have to tell a story- don't know of any rock operas that have deep and meaningful lyrics. |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 21:12
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There are 3 kinds of lyrics:
Lyrics that whose meaning is a driving force of the song, as in most folk / singer-songwriter
Lyrics that sound good but have little or no bearing on the song other than their sound. (Actually I would argue most of the music I listen to other than folk)
Lyrics that actually ruin the song.
I have almost bought Aryeon's Human Equation many times, but then I sample it and the lyrics to something like "Love" will come on....my spine twists, and I just can't do it.
I would argue that why Genesis is the king here is that Gabriel's vocals serve both #1 and #2 while the harmonies of Yes, which may be musically more pleasing, the lyric sits firmly in category #2 only.
Now great lyrics, and a musically unlistenable voice....that's a tough nut to crack....modern Dylan, VdGG (ducks and runs) ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: rpe9p
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 21:29
| I really dislike a lot of Spock's Beard's lyrics and I find that they detract from the music. I am not a huge fan of their music anyway, but my friends who are say they love the lyrics, which I dont understand. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 21:35
As I see it, in Spock's Beard's case, that they detract from the music isn't really a bad thing.  ;) ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Jake Kobrin
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 21:53
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I was listening to Beardfish this week. The lyrics are just dreadful, which is too bad because the music is really great. I'm luckily able to ignore the lyrics...
------------- http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Neil-Kobrin/244687105562746" rel="nofollow - SUPPORT MY FATHER AND BECOME A FAN Jacob Kobrin Illustration |
Posted By: ~Rael~
Date Posted: February 23 2009 at 22:24
This is really perfect. Unfortunately, Aryeon goes into the third. I envy the people who can ignore the lyrics. But I just can't, especially when they are so easy to understand. And to some of the people who asserted that lyrics, when it comes down to it, mean nothing. . . I have to really disagree. Lyrics are poetry, even if the lot is bad poetry (whatever "bad" poetry is). ------------- I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress . . . |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 02:37
In a post about bad lyrics you write: "I repeat myslef when under stress". Is that a joke? |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 02:44
Before GFTO, when Yes's lyrics were usually incomprehensible, they could also be intriguing. But I just cannot stand hippy preaching. "There's no doubt, NO DOUBT!" "You've got to want to succeed!" etc. etc. It makes me want to scream "No future for you!!!" |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 02:48
Aisle of Plenty makes a lot of sense, especially when you realise much of it is made up of puns on the names of British supermarkets, like Tesco and Safeway! And rattling off the names and prices of store products is pure poetry. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 04:23
Even after all these years, I'm still asking myself, were Yes being tonge in cheek when they wrote 'Circus of Heaven' or had they become so divored from reality, through their stardom, and excusrions across topographic oceans, that they genuinely believed, they were penning something of merit? If the latter, I am dissapointed. Genesis also wrote some dire lyrics after Gabriel left. 'All in a mouses night' is laughable, and most of the 'And then there were three' album is awful, lyric wise. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 04:57
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Bad Lyrics ? They're a real no-brainer. Check out these immortal lines from ELP's 'Love Beach' as penned by Pete Sinfield "When I finally marched from Sandhurst, I'd learned to put my fellow man first" "Yes it's great now you're a full-time nurse, but do be careful with the air-raids getting worse" "If you made the first eleven, then you'd be sure to get to heaven" "I want to hold you and enfold you beyond reason, climb on my rocket and we'll fly" "Now I've got a different plan, for you and me beside the deep blue sea" Is there worse out there in Progland ? ------------- 
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Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 05:57
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Bad lyrics in Prog? That's almost redundant to me. ------------- Bigger on the inside. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 07:00
Holy sh!t..  That's bad.
Love Beach has never been on my 'to get' list, but after reading that, I think I will get it... ..and burn it, and jump up and down on it, and drive my car over it.... 
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 07:17
"Continents united Against the common foe The first and last occasion But the fools would never know Alpha and omega The first-born and the last The vast dome of Atlantis Cracked and shuddered beneath the blast" "all the world now join hands as one; the first time since the world has begun" http://www.freesmileys.org">  http://www.freesmileys.org">
------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 07:25
Jim, you really need to work through your Pallas issues!
Those lyrics aren't that bad...apart from the bit about all holding hands, sharing a Coke with the world and teaching it to bloody sing... Ok pass the sick bucket.. 
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 07:30
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There are of course some unwittingly comedic Spinal Tap moments in the Sabbath catalogue: From the otherwise excellent 'War Pigs' Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses Bravo Ozzy, what rhymes with masses better than erm...masses ? -------------
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Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 12:29
I totally agree about 'All in a mouses night'. And 'Eleventh Earl of Mar' is not much better. Such lyrics seriously devaluate WIND AND WUTHERING (stupid album title, by the way) which is a shame, as 'Blood on the Rooftops' is a real gem: in all respects (lyrics included) one of the best Genesis tracks ever. But can we have a serious discussion about 'Circus of Heaven'? What is it exactly that irritates you so about this track? |
Posted By: Erpland316
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 15:43
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Silly lyrics can be used well such as Gong's Radio Gnome Trilogy. However, bands like Dream Theater (whom I don't like at all) have some of the cheesiest lyrics ever. Cheesy w**kfest music too! I have given them a chance too....heard every single album!
------------- "Science is all metaphor"-Timothy Leary [IMG]http://freespace.virgin.net/martin.jones10/amonpic.jpg">[IMG]http://imagegen.last.fm/red/artists/Yeti316.gif"> |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 15:46
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 15:57
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This is funny to me.
Most lyrics are bad without music accompanying them. Prog isn't the only genre of music that has had bad lyricists. What's the big deal about it? There ahve only been a hadful of truly good lyrics in rock muisc in my opinion, and more often than not, the music that accompanied it wasn't as good.
So if I would have to choose between bad lyrics and good music, or vice-versa . . . I'm choosing the former.
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Posted By: Erpland316
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 16:11
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Another band worth mentioning is Porcupine Tree. One has to admit their lyrics especially on FOABP are very cheesy. Mr. Wilson took the whole teenage angst/xbox loving thing way to far.
------------- "Science is all metaphor"-Timothy Leary [IMG]http://freespace.virgin.net/martin.jones10/amonpic.jpg">[IMG]http://imagegen.last.fm/red/artists/Yeti316.gif"> |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 16:17
Neal Morse era has great lyrics, but their new stuff doesn't.  ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 16:17
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^^ That was just a marketing ploy. Wilson moved PT to the Roadrunner label (the lonely teenage boy angst label) and he wrote an album that catered specifically to that market segment. Derek Shulman should be drawn and quartered for Roadrunner, but for him it's all about making money now, he left the music waaaaay behind.
One post u[ to Erpland's post
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 16:19
No one seems to realize that FOABP is a concept record told through a teenager's point of view. The lyrics were written the way they were for a reason.
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 16:20
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Flower Kings have awful lyrics, and (even though I love Yes), their lyrics tend to occasionally get bad. Ex: - A song about how great Bob Marley is - Don't Kill The Whale - Anything else about Jon Anderson's hippy crap It seems to me that their newer albums tend to have worse lyrics. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 16:34
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There is a lot of really crap lyrics in prog (Yes, a lot of Dream Theater (but certainly not all), Beardfish, ELP, Rush etc) and then there's a lot of excellent lyrics (Marillion, Genesis, Van der Graaf Generator, Pain of Salvation etc) but the majority is just OK, with nothing special about them but hardly cring worthy. This is not anything special because most genres are like this, with a few really great lyricists, several really crap lyricists and many that are just OK.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 16:35
| ^DT's lyrics became crap once John Myung stopped writing. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 16:40
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^Voices has some of the best lyrics of the 90's, yet its a John Petrucci song. Myung only wrote 4 or 5 songs and, though very good, is probably given more credit than he's due.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: ~Rael~
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 17:00
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I agree that all genres have bad lyrics, so maybe it is unfair to single out prog. But for a genre that is loved by many for the intricate musicianship and complexity of song, the bad lyrics just seem to stick out even more. I mean, we all expect Nickleback's lyrics to suck the hard one, but there music does too, so it evens out. It isn't even for bands like DT and Symphony X, because like 'em or hate 'em, there is no doubt they are talented. And, as to my signature of "I repeat myself under stress," it is a joke, and a lyric used in a King Crimson song (can't remember which one, it's off of one of the blue/yellow/red albums) that gave me a chuckle. Edit: It might be from the song "Elephant Talk." ------------- I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress . . . |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 17:15
? Jazz ? Classical ? Folk  ? Metal  ? I think prog is one of the very few musical genres interested in exposing at least some coherent ideas on the lyrics------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: MrEdifus
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 17:15
Exactly. They're not selling out by marketing to emo kids, they're writing in character as a critique or maybe even satire of emo kids. It's exactly the opposite. And as for your sig, Rael... it's "Indiscipline."
Also, for the record, there are many metal bands not listed on PA that actually write good lyrics. ------------- 
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 17:21
| Actually, I always felt that Flaw had pretty good lyrics. Too bad hardly anyone knows who they are. |
Posted By: OzzProg
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 17:58
Ok, well you are correct. If you deeply look into pretty much any lyric, it is meaningful / funny in some way or another. The point I was trying to make is that, in most songs you would hear, rattling off the names and prices of foods would sound absolutely terrible. However, in the certain context of Aisles of Plenty, it works wonderfully, making good use of the lyrics. ------------- |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 18:04
That's not really fair. I didn't say that other members of DT have never written a good lyric; what I in fact said was that after Myung quite writing, DT's lyrics haven't been any good. I'm assuming you don't agree? Petrucci had written all of his good lyrics by the time that SFaM was released, and Portnoy has always been too straightforward a writer for me to get into. Kevin Moore was okay, but he's no longer in the band, and James LaBrie could be really great, but he doesn't write frequently enough.
Every song written by John Myung has moved me in ways lyrically that no one else in the band is anywhere near. Every. Single. Song. He had no low point lyrically, as far as I am concerned. How is that overrated? It's just an opinion. I'm not proclaiming that he was the best songwriter in history, or even Prog history; I just feel that he was the best writer of all of the DT guys.
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Posted By: ~Rael~
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 21:13
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I think metal is one of the better genres for music, but maybe that's just because I can't understand them most of the time. I do like Lamb of God's lyrics though (for the most part). He is one of this rare screamer/growlers who enunciates, haha. And I recent that slam against roadrunner. I like a lot of bands on that label. YOU HAVE GREATLY OFFENDED ME. ------------- I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress . . . |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 21:37
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"YOU HAVE GREATLY OFFENDED ME." Then I can sleep easy. My work here is done.
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Posted By: Jake Kobrin
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 21:49
The lyrics of In Absentia are good. They're quite delusional and make little sense but I also enjoy the lyrics of the sky moves sideways. They're poetic at least. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Neil-Kobrin/244687105562746" rel="nofollow - SUPPORT MY FATHER AND BECOME A FAN Jacob Kobrin Illustration |
Posted By: the icon of sin
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 04:58
Didn't Geezer write most of Sabbath's lyrics? |
Posted By: Dalezilla
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 05:11
Wrong. You clearly haven't listened to other genres besides prog. There's a lot of absolutely beatiful lyrics in many genres. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 05:19
Well, it's tricky to have a serious discussion about it, as I've never worked out if it's supposed to be a serious song. However, in a nutshell, the sacharin sweetness of it all is just not my cup of tea. Where Anderson is saying how beautiful, amazing and wonderful the circus is, and his son replies that there were no lions, tigers clowns, toffee apples etc is just too much cheese on my toast for me. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to laugh or cry at that point. I love Yes, but it's little gems like this that probably contributed to the fall of the house of prog in the 70's. |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 05:46
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I agree with you, Blacksword, that by the time of TORMATO, Yes sounded awfully cheesy. You can hear it not just in the lyrics, but in Rick Wakeman's keyboard solos as well. (Rick sounds particularly ugly in "Don't kill the whale" which, however, has some great guitar!)
But don't forget there was a lot of cheese on GFTO as well. Take these immortal lines from "Turn of the Century": Roan shaped his heart Thru his working hands Work to mould his passion into clay Like the sun Does the sun feel passion? Does it mould clay? Is Roan like the sun in any way? And also, I think that both "Circus of Heaven" and "Arriving UFO" are a kind of self-parody. "Arriving UFO" is the humorous counterpart of "Wonderous stories" (a track I've always intensely disliked), and in "Circus of Heaven" Jon Anderson mocks his own past attempts at writing epic ""poetry"" (the word should be put between at least double inverted commas), as you can see in: For what seemed only just a moment in time Seven solemn flying silvered regal horses rode by Seven golden chariots in tow, a wonder to behold The Seven Lords of the Mountains of Time The fact that his little son complains there are "no clowns" could even be seen as a critique of 1970s progressive rock as a whole! Most of it had become far too pompous (cf. ELP's WORKS Vols. I/II). In many ways, bands like Madness, Ian Dury and the Blockheads and even Kid Creole and the Coconuts injected rock music with a spirit of fun that proved more than welcome! Yes would benefit from the same re-vitalised spirit when they recorded the excellent DRAMA. (Tellingly, without those prime cheesemongers Anderson and Wakeman.) Of course it's true J.A.'s little boy sounds awfully sentimental... My guess is that he had actually spoken the same words when the Andersons visited some over-flashy circus. A pity Jon wasn't able to record the little chap when his words sounded more natural and spontaneous... |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 06:43
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There is a hilariously bad Flower Kings lyric which I'm trying to remember, something about horses I believe, anyone know?
A lot of their lyrics are bad but that can probably be forgiven as they're not native English speakers.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 07:20
Good points there, fuxi. 
'Turn of the Century' does have some dodgy lines in it, but overall I think it's a very heartfelt story Anderson is trying to tell, and musically its near perfect for the Yes formula at the time. I like to think of Circus of Heaven being parody. It's awkward to think of grown men in one of my favourote bands taking that seriously. Generally speaking I'm not a big lyrics man anyway, but when they really stand out, and a song is built so much around the narrative, dodgy lyrics can be really off putting for me. Yes have never really been coherent song writers in terms of their lyrics, imo, but Anderson has often been able to use words, to perfectly fit the musical accompanment. Close to the Edge, as a case in point, is meaningless to me as a concept; indeed knowing what it's about, may strip the piece of its mysterious charm. But, Andersons voice becomes another instrument in the band, and the words he chooses, for their sound, become part of the rhythms and melodies. It's a classic Yes formula. I remember reading that Chris Squire looked forward to being there when Jon Anderson was interviwed, and asked about the meaning of his lyrics. Squire said, after the interviews neither HE nor the interviewer were really any the wiser
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 07:38
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There was a documentary on Yes some years back in which Chris Squire made it clear he didn't have a clue what most of the lyrics were about & frankly didn't care as long as they 'sounded good' -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 07:43
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^^^ Makes you wonder how many Yes fans invested hours of their time, trying to analyse all those lyrics, trying to find depth and meaning..
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 08:03
| Jon Anderson extracts the michael from his own lyrics in "Going for the One" ("but they're so hard to find in my cosmic mind"). |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 08:06
Hey! Leave my husband alone  ! |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 10:19
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Metallica's first album.
-------------  |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 11:47
| The funny thing is there's an American philosophy professor who takes Anderson's lyrics very seriously indeed. Bill Martin is his name, if I remember it right. (He also plays bass guitar and wrote liner notes for the latest series of Yes reissues.) He's written a big fat book on the subject. He takes CTTE, for example, and starts interpreting the lyrics in the light of Plato, Nietzsche, St. Augustine and what-have-you! Just goes to show that for some "academics" anything goes! Now will someone PLEASE rearrange my liver? To the solid mental grace? |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 12:51
Whoa!!  Hold on there Fuxi. You can't just jump all the way to liver rearrangement. There's a whole series of steps toward that type of enlightenment. It takes a lifetime and many of us never attain full liver rearrangement.
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 12:59
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Not quite true; full liver rearrangement does not have to be a distant goal. There is a well-trodden shortcut, involving lots of booze and unhealthy food. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 15:35
With some lyrics people will argue heavily whether they are bad or good. Here a nice example:Some Questions about Hats"Can one wear uncanny hats?Can one weather hats? Can one wear feather hats? Concentrate on irate hats Radiate from hats When sated, vacate hats Doors of open water elicit ooh & aahing Can the wet attract a hat? Can hats favor fire? Can a hat aspire to higher things? Can one pit hats against vicious things? Pernicious things? Liquorice fish with wings? Can hats favor fire? Can a hat aspire to higher things? Can one dismiss hats as simple things? Vapid things? Scant, evanescent things?" Now are these bad or good lyrics? Or what? -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 16:14
| ^ Good. Witty and quite imaginative. |
Posted By: ~Rael~
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 17:43
Maybe as Primus song. Probably works better as a song, or some bizzare grammatical exercise. And I am really surprised people were saying Genesis's "Wind and Wuthering" (an excellent title, it does mean something) song lyrics are bad. They are some of the best, in my opinion, even "All In a Mouse's Night." Sure, its goofy, but I still find it clever. Please explain why the lyrics of "The Eleventh Earl of Mar" are so bad, because I find them very good, way above the norm. And, to me, "Blood on the Rooftops" is one of the lamer songs on the album, though still good. The best, by far, is "One for the Vine," a song I put in my top ten, musically and lyrically. And "Blood on the Rooftops ------------- I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress . . . |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 17:55
Haha. It's kind of funny you should say that. The original title was Metal Up Your Ass. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: February 25 2009 at 17:58
Well, I've got to say that they're very deep. But when deep unlocks a true inner meaning, I like it. That seems to me like it involves thinking, but doesn't get you anywhere once you do the thinking. Genesis is a good example of great, deep thought-provoking lyrics. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 00:45
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I think people often confuse crap lyrics with lyrics they don't like. There is a difference, Most of the lyrics I have heard in prog I think are good. Even some of the fantasy stuff is decent as long as it doesn't get too dragon and wizard laced. I mean, hell, aren't works such as the Iliad or A Midsummer Night's Dream considered literary masterpieces? It's all made up fantasy sh*t. If you think prog lyrics are bad, you really need to listen to more mainstream music. I mean after all, it's fun to see how many euphemisms for sex you can think of. Seriously. about 80% of the prog lyrics I have heard fall into either the good or great category. And btw , I love the message in SIT by Beardfish, so bite me you hairless land mammals!! |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 02:42
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Here comes the bishop, all dressed up
he's got eyes in the back of his head One wave of his funny old stick - there's a band of light across your eyes! I'm sorry people, but as far as lyrics go, this is plain terrible. The story is set early in the 18th century, isn't it? My grasp of Scottish history is not that strong, but one thing I DO know is that, in those days, no-one would have spoken of a bishop's "funny old stick"... As for ONE FOR THE VINE, it's got a delightful main melody (although I'm always put off by the rattling percussion during that instrumental bit in the middle) but, once again, the lyrics are amateurish. The point of view keeps changing from the third person singular to the first, and back again - makes me wanna shout to Phil: Come on man, MAKE UP YOUR MIND. But it must be added that such lyrics are by no means as awful as Jon Anderson's hippy-dippiest moments. |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 02:49
Nothing wrong with fantastic themes as such. For example, I thoroughly enjoy "Broadway Melody of 1974" or "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight". It's nonsense, but DELIGHTFUL nonsense, thanks to Peter Gabriel's wit. |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 03:05
I wonder if the author of these lyrics was inspired by a well-known poem by Langston Hughes which is also full of rhetorical questions. Somehow, the cadence seems similar: What happens to a dream deferred? Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun? Or fester like a sore-- And then run? Does it stink like rotten meat? Or crust and sugar over-- like a syrupy sweet? Maybe it just sags like a heavy load. Or does it explode? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 04:41
I couldn't agree more about 11th Earl of Mar. The lyrics are among the worst the band ever penned after Gabriel left. I reckon Banks was the main culprit. His lyrics were bland at best, and awkward and cringy at worst. I'm quite surpised other members of the band didn't point out how bad the lyrics were, to whoever wrote them. It must have been obvious that lines like 'funny old stick' and 'riding along on the crest of a wave' were simply not good enough. |
Posted By: Gustavo Froes
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 07:46
No they're not.
They're actually the only reason why this song exists,sice it closes the album as an exact reprise of the opening track.If however you do find it so cool,you should leave it aside and listen to Dancing With the Moonlit Knight more often.
Lyrics are very important in prog.
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Posted By: fusionfreak
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 07:53
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Many interesting points of view so far.I sometimes pay attention to lyrics but I don't care about quality.If music and sounds are great I'm really happy.Some lyrics are funny by the way:"I like bananas cos they got no bones,I like marijuana cos it gets me stoned!"(Bananas by Man). ------------- I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world of searchers with the help from crimson king |
Posted By: ~Rael~
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 08:04
Since when has tense change been a rule in a poem? Since when has poetry had rules at all (aside from be Modernism)? Plus, the tense change makes since. "Fifty thousand men were sent to do the will of one. His claim was phrased quite simply, though he never voiced it loud, I am he, the chosen one. In his name they could slaughter, for his name they could die. Though many there were believed in him, still more were sure he lied, But they'll fight the battle on. Then one whose faith had died Fled back up the mountainside, But before the top was made, A misplaced footfall made him stray From the path prepared for him. Off of the mountain, On to a wilderness of ice. This unexpected vision made them stand and shake with fear, But nothing was his fright compared with those who saw him appear. Terror filled their minds with awe. Simple were the folk who lived Upon this frozen wave. So not surprising was their thought, This is he, God's chosen one, Who's come to save us from All our oppressors. We shall be kings on this world. Follow me! l'll play the game you want me, Until I find a way back home. Follow me! I give you strength inside you, Courage to win your battles-- No, no, no, this can't go on, This will be all that I fled from. Let me rest for a while. He walked into a valley, All alone. There he talked with water, and then with the vine. They leave me no choice. I must lead them to glory or most likely to death. They travelled cross the plateau of ice, up to its edge. Then they crossed a mountain range and saw the final plain. Still he urged the people on. Then, on a distant slope, He observed one without hope Flee back up the mountainside. He thought he recognized him by his walk, And by the way he fell, And by the way he Stood up, and vanished into air." The bold is basically dialogue, or thoughts of the main character (except the first which is the original king), though there are no quotes. . . maybe that threw you for a loop, but no rule says there need to be quotes. It's pretty clear what the intention is. The tense shift has a purpose, and it is not a particularly hard poem to understand. The cyclical story of these lyrics is ingenious. The way this poem (as it works very well alone, without music) is structured is brilliant. There is nothing "amateurish" about it. ------------- I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress . . . |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 09:27
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I need you and you need me Also I need to be free Free as the word free can mean To stand secure outside this dream Starstruck moonman looks so blind You're still a slave within your mind I just love Kahn's Space Shanty, but the opening lyrics are plain awfull....
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 10:02
Hey Fuxi you have to read more about Genesis, the song was composed by Tony Banks, not Phil.
And BTW they are professional musicians not professional writers. ------------- |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 10:15
Genesis W & W is based loosey on the a novel called Wuthering Heights written by the late novelist Emily Bronté, most of the album is a Genesis interpretation of that novel, except Blood on the Rooftops that is a Hackett composition.
If you haven't read the nook here's a summary that ilustrates most of the titles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuthering_Heights - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuthering_Heights
The Eleven Earl on Mar is base on
While the eleventh (by some counts) holder of the title, Isabel Douglas count on Mar, was alone at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kildrummy_Castle - Kildrummy Castle , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Stewart,_Earl_of_Mar - Alexander Stewart entered it and forced her to sign a charter on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_12 - August 12 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1404 - 1404 yielding the earldom to him and his heirs. She revoked the charter later that year, but on marrying him, she gave him the earldom for life with remainder to her heirs. The King confirmed her last action the next year. More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Mar - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Mar
As we can see Genesis Lyrics is always funded in old britannia.
------------- |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 10:23
Why are you saying that Dancing with the Moonlit Knight is nonsense??, really you have to read more, if you read the lyrics careful it is not at nonsense, unless you think that Mythology is nonsense: hope that these links ilustratres you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selling_england_by_the_pound - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selling_england_by_the_pound
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_With_the_Moonlit_Knight - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_With_the_Moonlit_Knight
BTW did you know why the Title album is Selling England By The Pound is?
I will give you a clue : Britain in the early 70's Labor Party.
i think that if you critic the lyrics by the way they write mabye it's a fair opinion based at they maybe haven't a professional training as writers, but let me tell you that their lyrics are always very deep in very interesting themes.
------------- |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 11:21
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Rael -
1. Poetry has followed "rules" since the days of Homer and the epic of Gilgamesh. 2. The lyrics of ONE FOR THE VINE may seem poetical, but they are definitely not "poetry". No poet would write anything as awful as "terror filled their minds with awe". (You can believe me, translating poetry - and prose - is my job.) But I'll grant you this: the way Phil Collins sings certain lines (e.g. "This is he / God's chosen one / who's come to save us from / all our oppressors") is so exquisitely beautiful one forgets how awful the words are! (In my opinion, this is true about MAD MAN MOON as well. I couldn't care less about the lyrics, but the song always brings tears to my eyes.) Alberto - 1. I didn't say Phil wrote ONE FOR THE VINE. 2. Although half of the title of WIND AND WUTHERING was borrowed (ineptly, if you ask me) from WUTHERING HEIGHTS, and two compositions on the album derive their titles from the closing words of Emily Bronte's novel, WIND AND WUTHERING is not an interpretation of WUTHERING HEIGHTS at all. (Incidentally, I adore WUTHERING HEIGHTS.) 3. When I say the lyrics to DANCING WITH THE MOONLIT KNIGHT are "nonsense", this is not meant negatively. "Nonsense poetry" is a wonderful genre, Peter Gabriel's lyrics are obviously related to the grand old British tradition of Lewis Carroll and Edward Lear, and I love him for that. "Nonsense poetry" often has hidden political or emotional meanings. I'm gonna have to leave it there for a while; too busy to add any more comments the next few days, I'm afraid. Take care! |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 14:55
You bring up a really good point. Mainstream music almost always has worse lyrics than prog. Prog, even if occasionally weird, is always better than simple "I love you" in pop music. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Eraserhead
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 14:57
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As much as I love Pain of Salvation, Daniel rapping "f**k you right down to the core" in Spitfall always made me squirm.
------------- In heaven, everything is fine |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 17:22
I'd say the first disc of 6 Degrees had some excellent lyrics, but there's been non since. The implication in your first post was that Myung was the only good lyricist in DT and that since he's stoped writting there's nothing good with DT's lyrics anymore. There's actually an element of truth in that (IMO) but I think its more of a coincidence than Myung having an effect on the others. By the end of Scenes... Myung had only written 4 songs in the bands 50+ repertoir. They are fantastic songs but it only suggests occasional flashes of brilliance rather than a distinct talant for song writting, or we would have seen more of them and he'd still be writting. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 17:31
That's one of my favourite short songs. Love it. Gets a lot of playtime since I made a Dagmar Krause compilation with that on it which I keep in my car's CD player. it's witty. And just for fun since you mentioned hats. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 17:42
Your not thinking of Elaine are you? "Here she comes again, smiling like a horse" ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: ~Rael~
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 17:50
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Poetry has certain goals, but not rules. It used to, and they are unwritten rules at that. I don't care how much you have translated in your job--poetry is a completely subjective art form. Just because you think it is bad doesn't make it so. I don't care if you like it or not, but to say it isn't poetry is idiotic. How could something be poetical and not be poetry, unless you are describing prose as being poetic? And you did say Phil Collin's wrote the lyrics. Maybe not directly, but if you are going to deny that you clearly implied it, you're being difficult for the sake of difficult. ------------- I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress . . . |
Posted By: Abrawang
Date Posted: February 26 2009 at 22:35
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Good thread. But it's about time somebody cited a few lines of doggerel from Still You Turn Me On;
Every day a little sadder
A little madder Someone get me a ladder It lacks the high falutin' pretension of some of the others but sure makes up for it in childishness. ------------- Casting doubt on all I have to say... |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: February 27 2009 at 02:07
Not here to argue
 just to defend Moonlit Knight and SEBTP. There are so many quintessentially English references in the lyrics you almost have to be English to get them, IMO."Knights of the Green Shield Stamp and shout": yeah, nonsense on the surface, but if you know what a Green Shield Stamp is/was, you get the selling reference - the stamps were given away in supermarkets etc, housewives saved up books of them and could cash the books in for tacky free gifts like kettles and toasters.
"Aisle of Plenty" is a sarcastic reference to supermarkets too - the pun is aisle/Isle, comparing England to one huge Walmart where everything's for sale. Manic Street Preachers borrowed the idea for Everything Must Go.
"Battle of Epping Forest" is IMO lyrically superb. It all refers to organised crime gangs like Ron& Reg and others. There were plenty of Mick the Pricks fresh out the nick in real life, believe me. The shops that need aid are those that haven't paid is a reference to protection rackets, there were plenty of real-life Bethnal Green Butchers and if they disagreed on a gangland boundary the bloodshed was very often only too real. The song attacks the media glamourisation of crime - again echoed by the Manics on Archives of Pain.
Maybe 'cos I'm a writer and not a musician, I don't think lyrics are unimportant in prog. Why eat cornflakes when you can have steak?
My favourite lyrics tend to be by Tull, Caravan, Genesis, some Floyd and many other more obscure bands. IMO the best writers are usually to be found in non-prog bands - Weller, Davies, Nick Jones, Strummer and so many many more.
As to what's bad... I'm not judge or jury but I do find Jon Anderson's stuff of very little value - the voice may as well be an instrument for all the meaning I get out of them. And anything about dungeons and dragons, boy meets girl and how tough it is to be in a touring band leaves me cold. ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: stewe
Date Posted: February 28 2009 at 05:14
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Worst lyrics I've ever heard came from Magenta and Unitopia... they recylce cliché, simple and cheesy phrases to create songs absolutely wtihout any meaning. Slightly advanced student of English could write it better. That's what I call bad lyrics. Many lyrics in prog are aquired taste. Actually I like the way Yes took them, even though often being nonsensical, they are imaginative, original, complicated, playful, suiting perfectly to the whole sound and phrasing. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/trevorrabin/?chartstyle=basic10" rel="nofollow">  <a href="http://steveer.ic.cz" rel="nofollow" |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: February 28 2009 at 06:33
Isn't Close to the Edge actually a concept album about Buddhism? Anyway: Ian Anderson's lyrics > Jon Anderson's lyrics I think that philosophy professor would have a heart attack if someone informed him of that! ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 28 2009 at 07:29
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As far as I know, CttE was loosely inspired by Herman Hesse's book Siddharta, which of course was about the Buddha. As regards the general issue, I've heard my share of bad lyrics (some of them belonging to Italian bands... I always tell Micky he's lucky not to understand what they sing), but also some great ones. Those of you who love nonsense poetry (and I do) would do well to learn Italian and get an earful of Franco Battiato's lyrics - pure genius. |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 12:00
This is it, Rael! You should read someone's words carefully before you react to them. 1. Lyrics which SEEM poetical (as I said before) can very easily not be poetry. A case in point is the whole of TALES FROM TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS. 2. About Phil Collins I wrote the following: "The point of view keeps changing from the third person singular to the first, and back again - makes me wanna shout to Phil: Come on man, MAKE UP YOUR MIND." I did this, of course, not because I assumed Phil wrote the lyrics in question, but because he SINGS them. The fact that ONE vocalist is employed (singing in the same voice throughout) makes sloppy lyrics sound even more confusing than they seem on the written page. 3. Any kind of poetry I've ever seen, including the most modernistic (Ezra Pound, Tristan Tzara, what-have-you), follows rules (strict or loose, written or unwritten), otherwise it isn't poetry but gibberish. By the way, the words in your "signature" are not from "Elephant Talk" but from "Indiscipline", although Adrian Belew actually said: "I repeat MYSELF when under stress." Interdisciplinarily yours, Fuxi |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 12:08
Thanks very much for that! I knew about "Isle of Plenty" but I never knew about those stamps, even though I've been listening to SELLING ENGLAND since 1975! (I only settled in England in 1996.) I still think PG's lyrics are "nonsense", though, but only as a LITERARY GENRE. There are so many parallells with Lewis Carroll's work. If you read "The Hunting of the Snark", for example, that's full of political references as well. Wish someone would publish "The Annotated Genesis"! |
Posted By: Gustavo Froes
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 12:14
Funny you said that,there's a very nice site on the web that goes by that name,only instead of Genesis is Lamb Lies Down On Broadway(without THE).It's a very interesting and complete analysis of the album,thouh I guess if you don't like Peter's lyrics,The Lamb must be an awfull album,mostly.  |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 12:17
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I adore PG's lyrics!
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Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 12:40
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Before I hide again in my cave, let me stress once again (for those who are still awake) that "Nonsense" is an honourable genre with a long pedigree. Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonsense_verse The "Annotated Lamb" is here (a pity there's nothing on SEBTP, though): http://www.bloovis.com/music/lamb.html Love on ya! jv |