VDGG, why the world loves them or hates them?
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=59421
Printed Date: July 20 2025 at 03:51
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Topic: VDGG, why the world loves them or hates them?
Posted By: MikeyPikey
Subject: VDGG, why the world loves them or hates them?
Date Posted: July 09 2009 at 23:30
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It's no secret that VDGG is a band that gets lots of, "I just can't get into them," and, "I don't understand the hype." So being a huge fan of the group, I would just like to here the reasons that people do or don't like them. I don't want to argue with anyone, I'm happy that everyone can have their own opinions with what music they do and don't like, I would just like to get a better understanding of what goes through people's heads with this particular group. On a side note, I would like to mention that I've grown up in the U.S.A and that even after initially listening to bands like Rush, Pink Floyd, and Genesis, I have allowed myself to adapt to the likes of more "wierd" and intriguing bands like that of the Krautrock, R.I.O, etc. Some of my favorites include VDGG, Henry Cow, Can, Magma, Captian Beefheart, and you get the picture. |
Replies:
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: July 09 2009 at 23:36
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It's pretty much obvious, well at least for me, and you pretty much said it in the last paragraph. It's sometimes way too dark or chaotic for the average prog fan who listens to Floyd, Yes and Rush(to name a few). The theatrics of Hammill are totally an acquired taste also. I liked them, not that much, but I do enjoy their music every now and then. |
Posted By: Phideaux
Date Posted: July 09 2009 at 23:58
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I have had van der graaf generator albums since I was a small kid. I sort of liked them. Nothing to write home about, but also some cool tunes. I FAR MORE preferred the 80s Alt Rock Hammill -- PH7, Future Now, Sitting Targets, Black Box. I think it was Black Box that made me really appreciate Hammill and thus Van der graaf. To this day I think of Vdgg like Absinthe or Cognac. You certainly wouldn't want to chug it at a barbeque, but when you sip it slowly and on an appropriate occasion it is like a perfect essence. The first three albums are magical and twisted. There is some angel dust on those tapes and I think the band themselves were concerned by the spirits their music conjured. When taken with the "band" tracks from Hammill albums thru Nadir, there is a DARK Frightening energy in the music. Genesis sometimes gets there with Salmacis and Trespass, but ultimately lost their dark edge when their vocal pitch went a bit higher. For me the last great vdgg album was Godbluff. Certainly there were amazing and excellent songs on the subsequent albums, but Godbluff was a dense wasteland battlefield of incomprehensible music, not "songs" per se. There was menace and magic and death and madness in those songs. I didn't feel that madness in the last two albums of the classic period. For me, the VDG album that followed (Zone...) was basically songs by Hammill, but the shock was gone. Now, years later, after thousands of listens of Yes, ELP, Genesis, I started to crave something darker and with heavy substance and I found those early albums to fit the bill. I finally "GOT" them. It took many years, but now I am a hardened fan. I feel those albums are scarier than any by Sabbath, Crimson's metal period (red). Anyway, enough from me, I'll just await my exorcism... |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 00:43
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First there is Hammill's voice, which is an acquired taste, and many will never like it. He really lives his songs, which make Hammill or VdGG concerts so very special. Some people think he is overdoing it, and maybe they are right, but VdGG have a twisted sense of humour too; don't take them too seriously! Most of VdGG's music and lyrics are very much tongue in cheek. The band is also not afraid to go into total cacophony sometimes (especially on "Pawn Hearts"), and some people don't like cacophony either. Third, but not last:: Although the musicians are excellent, they never show off in flashy solos. it is the group performance that counts. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: TealFoxes
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 02:33
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It's a shame one would deny a band like VDGG considering how wide their sound can vary. The Least - Pawn Hearts trilogy appeals on a whole different level than the Godbluff - World Record albums & even after that, they gave a more orchestral sound on the later line up. It's not only an aquired taste, but each of their albums require listens MUCH more than once or twice to uncover all the moods they evoke. I think their the definitive "put your headphones on, lay in bed at night time & let your imagination run wild" type band.
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Posted By: MikeyPikey
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 02:43
| One thing I find particularly interesting about the comments on this band is how people explain how there is no way to "move" to the band. Personally, I find their music to be VERY catchy and even groovy. I have had a friend in the past tell me he thinks they would have done much better without Hammil's voice. I found that odd because after listening to VDGG's music for so long...his voice just seems so natural to me. |
Posted By: Kazuhiro
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 02:51
| It is felt that the music of VDGG is wonderful. It is also true to have influenced Voivod and La Rossa. In john Lydon, having been indirectly influenced from Hammill is also true. However, I still have the element of the difficulty in the music character and directionality for Solo of Hammill. |
Posted By: Man Erg
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 03:04
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The thing that I have always loved about VdGG is the extremes.
They can break your heart with beautiful melodies and lyrics.Scare the sh*t out of you or just put you into rapture, especially when they get into a 'groove'. I think that is when they are at their best,When they play as an 'organic' unit. Totally and utterly unique, ------------- 
Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb. |
Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 03:08
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I don't mind complex or dark music but VDGG's Pawn Hearts goes a few steps too far here for my taste. I think there's too little music on that album and too much out of the ordinary although I do understand why die hard proggers especially love that album. Personally I have more with Godbluff but to be fair and honest I don't think VDGG will ever by my cup of tea.
Lately I read a comment on our forum that stated the opinion that many listenings can make one to grow into them and love and apprciate it more. I severely doubt if that would work for me. But who knows ...? ------------- A day without prog is a wasted day |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 03:18
I'm a fan 
I think they over experimented in Pawn Hearts though. Would have been cool if they were still together from 1972-1974. Might have got some more goodies  ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: Phideaux
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 08:51
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there's a great (and long) album to be compiled from the solo hammill albums of 72-74. Black Room is amazing! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 09:03
I think this hits the nail for me. VDGG shift between the beautifully melancholic, and the psychotic and sinister. Clearly not everyone is going to like a group that can sound so unhinged at times. To say that they are an acquired taste is putting it very mildly. Their lack of guitar and solos generally may be an issue for some proggers to. If you consider flashy synth solos and shredding lead guitar work, to be a pre-requisite for good prog rock, then VDGG will profoundly let you down. But that's not me, so I love em! 
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Man Erg wrote:Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 09:07
I haven't acquired the taste yet. I think it is partly that I don't like Hammill's voice. I think that it is partly I don't like the saxophone playing at times when it sounds like they are strangling a cat. And I think that the lack of guitar and solos is probably another big factor for me, since I come to prog from the hard rock/heavy metal arena, and thus I am probably addicted to the sound of the guitar. ------------- 
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 09:11
Scott's sentiment is not exactly what I would say, but it's damn close enough. However, I do like some of their work, but I have to be in the mood to hear it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: rpe9p
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 09:40
| People say they are an acquired taste, but if you really dislike VDGG initially it is doubtful you are going to learn to like them. I think it is more the case that a lot of fans of the band had the same experience that I had. When I first heard the band, I thought "wow this is very different, its pretty good but I dont like it that much." Then, with more listens, I began to love hammills voice and the emotions their music creates and I really fell in love with the band. So, it was an acquired taste for me in that with more listens I went from just liking their music to loving it, but that does not mean that everyone who dislikes the band from the start can learn to like them with more listens. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 10:09
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It took me long to grow some liking for Peter Hammill's vocals. Although his singing comes often comes close to, or is actually, shouting, his vocal capabilities cannot be denied. The music can be harsh sometimes, but some of the cacophonies are really beautiful, at least to my humble ears. Sometimes it may be hard at first to let the music grow on you, but patience will be rewarded.To cut a long story short, more than twenty years after the first hearing, I have become a fan.
------------- 
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Posted By: Phideaux
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 10:26
| an interesting point brought up about solos and guitars and whatnot. I think interesting and captivating song writing is so much more important than the trappings of "progressive rock". The moogy synths playing Hammer/Powell-esque solos and the uber D-R-A-M-A guitar solo-ettes can be fatiguing. To hear something that achieves the same level of creativity and disorientation with a different palette is exciting and that's why I love vdgg. Plus, not being a twiddly musician myself, I'm probably jealous of the musos who can twiddle convincingly and thus gravitate to those whose talents are more harmonious with my own... |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 11:04
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If someone had told me, back in my teens, that I would end up loving a band with very little guitar, AND with saxophones, I probably would have laughed at them.
The more prog I discovered, the more I took to the VDGG formula. I still love guitars as much as the next rock/prog fan, but it's partly the fact that VDGG can make the wonderful noise they do, whilst avoiding any rock cliche - in terms of composition - that I like them so much. They are in my top 3 prog bands alongside Rush and Genesis. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 11:29
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Sorry to wreck your premise, but since I haven't tried them I have no opinion.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: RaphaelT
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 11:56
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Whether you love or hate VDGG it really depends on what you value the most in progressive rock - if it is just guitar crying on the mellotron background, then you may not get the knack ot it. If it is guitar with mellotron and also anything else - give VDGG a try ------------- yet you still have time! |
Posted By: Tsevir Leirbag
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 12:32
Very true! I saw them live at Montréal yesterday evening, I was amazed, it was a fantastic show! ------------- Les mains, les pieds balancés Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers, Un marin mort, Il dormira - Paul Éluard |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 12:56
AFAIK, every band with more than half a dozen fans gets the love-hate deal, just the more accessible ones get less of it than the rest, which is to say Genesis and Camel are spared, VDGG, Giant and KC bear the brunt. I love their essential style and loved it from the first time I heard it, Hammil's strong vocals, the organs-saxophone combination. But I find I can't really 'binge' on VDGG, their songs seem to run together after a while, I don't know why this is so but it happens everytime I settle down for VDGG. 
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 13:44
I loved them from my first listen of Pawn Hearts, and that one is still my favorite of all their albums (though Still Life comes very close). It's hard for me to explain why, because when I listen to Hammill sing I always think that it would be very easy to dislike the band because of his voice. And yet, I love it. I love the lyrics, being mostly introspective angst ridden type stuff..........which is not too different from my own lyric writing. The wild and sometimes cacophonous music really works for me (even though I'm a symph prog lover primarily, I've always enjoyed the more avante side of prog as well). Honestly the lack of solos never really registered for me until other people pointed it out. My own music always contains guitar solos (I'm a guitarist, after all  ) , yet for some reason I never really notice the lack of it........though there is a good amount of acoustic guitar, and I assume the songs are mostly based on that since Hammill wrote 98% of the material.The other thing is that VDGG just sounds SO 70's. Even their 2000's albums! |
Posted By: Isa
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 13:46
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Three main reasons I used to have a problem with the band. 1. Vocals, the "sliding" up to and down from the notes. An obvious and all too common problem for most people, definitely an acquired taste, as it was for me. I love them now though! 2. The music at times seems to move too slowly, making it a tad bit boring, a problem my brother has with the band. A lot of mid-tempo tracks with not much power. 3. The somewhat obscure instrumentation and composition compared to most of the other prog giants. Personally none of these bother me much anymore, and number 3 makes me appreciate them even more. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 10 2009 at 15:49
Some albums are easier than others to get a better feel for his voice. In a way some of the earlier ones are really intense (Silent Corner Empty Stage), and they will often alienate a listener ... it's hard to understand something like St. Bernina or Red Shift ...
Try listening to the album "Skin" which is a bit softer, but also more emphatic and detailed and a bit smoother ... and after that one can start catching Godbluff or Still Life ...
You have to remember one thing ... and it matters not if this is VDGG or Hamill solo ... he's a poet first ... and the music is there to color the poem ... that's it ... it has absolutely no other connection to "song" or "composition" (in a manner of speaking) ... and most of the music is more about the "feeling" than it is a pre-defined format or style.
And you know what? Go look at the best writers in the past 500 years. Or painters. Or composers? What did they do?
Exactly the same thing!
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Posted By: Tsevir Leirbag
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 23:22
I can't tell you why some people hate it. It's just FABULOUS! 
They're even better live! ------------- Les mains, les pieds balancés Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers, Un marin mort, Il dormira - Paul Éluard |
Posted By: Progologue
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 23:39
| Some of the songs on World record, Still life, Godbluff, H to he, Quiet zone are excellent. VDGG are a pretty fun witty band from 1975-1978. Enjoyable jazzy prog band. Their early 70s are more serious. H to he is very good. Pawn hearts is ok. Lighthouse keepers seems to drag on alot after the great first 5 minutes, but I find half the album to sound like filler. Man erg is the album highlight and theme one is a cool bonus track |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 15 2009 at 13:35
| I find it odd that some people consider VdGG too "out there", I have never considered them to be a little jazzy and more poetically based, but not weird or strange the way I initially heard zeuhl and RIO/avant. |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: July 15 2009 at 15:33
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I love them because of:
1. The great compositions. You don't hear much about that, but they were IMHO not any less in that than most of the big names. Compositions come first with me, and they were good in it.
2. Because of Hammill's intense way of singing. I have the feeling that there's almost no middle ground. Love or hate, indeed.
3. Because of Hammil's intelligent lyrics.
4. Hammill's stage presence.
5. Because of the playing. By Hammill? Yes, but it's not just Hammill, I also like for instance, David Jackson's saxophone , background vocals (for instance in "Killer"), Guy Evans organ...
6. The obstinacy of the band. I still remember a VDGG concert that I visited, and someone asked for a request, and Hammill answered that he would not play requests, because "that's not the kind of troupe we are".
Unique and intense band
 |
Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: July 15 2009 at 16:03
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Honestly I think that a lot of the problems people have with VDGG stem from the fact that it is a very unorthodox way of doing music. Most of the prog bands of the 70s were Prog Rock bands, and even though they were very much progressive bands they had a fairly evident inheritance from straight-up rock as well. When you listen to Genesis and Yes there's a lot of complexity but also a number of moments that anyone can dig. It might take repeated listenings to really "get" an album but there are usually a few catchy, more straight-forward bits that lure you in until you reach that point. VDGG never really had those qualities. They haven't really really got any guitar at all, which is obviously a huge stroke against them in such a guitar-dominated medium. Also from what I've heard they generally seem to lack that ability to reel people in. There usually isn't a whole lot to "bait" the listener, as it were, or ease them in gently, but rather they're just plunged into a world of intensity and chaos, which can be quite intimidating to the casual listener. In short, I think the reason why VDGG is often disliked is because they are unapologetically anti-mainstream and really haven't got any interest in building bridges to make themselves more accessible. I love them, but it is very easy for me to see why other people wouldn't enjoy their music. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 15 2009 at 20:01
I think you are right, I can't think of many songs that "go easy" on the listener. There are a lot of things that can either turn you off of them or catch you instantly. If you happen to dig the saxophone (guilty) then it gives you something to hold on to until you are used to the rest, the same could be true for the drums or keyboard, and to some people, Hammill's vocals, they are addicting after getting into VdGG. I think they are one of those bands that, if you do not like it after listening to a few records, you should leave alone for a while. You can't force yourself into liking them. |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: July 15 2009 at 20:18
Guitar isn't important. Not many bands have a nice guitar and style anyway. VDGG have several great melodies. If they had albums in 72, 73 and 74 and 78, 79 etc they'd probably be the best prog band ever imo. The only album i don't care much about is pawn hearts, but the other have some great tunes. Hamills voice is awesome and way better than Gabriels imo. ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 00:25
I'd disagree. Guitar is basically the hallmark of rock music; I'd say that it's an incredibly important factor, at least as far as people's tastes are concerned. I guess that was kind of the point of my post: VDGG aren't really a progressive rock band so much as they are just a progressive band. At least, in the earlier days. When you listen to albums like Still Life they've got a bit of a rockier, more mainstream feel (though still not much of one). I think that what you say makes sense if you're coming at it from a prog perspective, but I was thinking more of a "Why do people in general dislike VDGG? Why could they never match the popularity of their contemporaries?" They do have some amazing melodies and upon repeated listenings probably have some of the catchiest vocals of any prog band, but I find it usually takes a couple of listens to get at them. Most of their melodies aren't things that grab the listener right away because he/she is too overwhelmed with what's going on to pick it out, or is too busy trying to compute Hammill's vocals. If you've listened to a fair bit of prog it might grab you at first but if you're coming from a less experienced angle you probably won't be able to take it in. Again this applies more to earlier stuff than later stuff. The anthemic Pilgrims, for example, might be the band's most accessible song, or at least one of them. |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 01:03
vdgg are great. I wish they wrote more albums. They missed the greatest years in music 1972-1974. They are a very jazzed up rock band with classical moments, which is what prog rock is to me. Great writers of melody. I'm not fussed about guitar. It's just another instrument and rock music should be about many instruments. Guitar dominated music is more simply thought out and isn't jazz based. If a song is progressing, the only way it can do that is through melody which will grab you and improve with each listen. How can a song progress if the melody is very simple and there's a flashy guitar solo or there is some unheard of experimenting in the song such as fart noises lol. The main thing is that the melody isn't progressing, so solos and experimenting is needed to make it better but it will never be great ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 01:12
Oh I agree with you completely (except for Pawn Hearts... that one's brilliant, man  ). They are by far one of the top prog acts out there IMHO. I just don't have any difficulty in understanding why most people wouldn't be fans.
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Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 01:48
Dunno. Pawn hearts doesn't seem to have the genius melodies that we hear in H to he, Godbluff, Still life, World record, Quiet zone. Lemmings and Plague just seem to plod on with half decent melodies although the start is cool(similar to 2112 epic by rush, cool at start, but just ok for the next 15 minutes), but I miss the spine shiverring moments of the other vdgg albums. I think they were more concerned with experimenting with jamming and storytelling in pawn hearts . Man erg is the song which really meets their standards and style though. Nice song from start to finish with a cool part in the middle ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: Kestrel
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 02:14
Agreed. While it is hard for me to understand how anyone couldn't like Genesis or Jethro Tull, I can completely understand why they wouldn't like VDGG or Gentle Giant. They are just completely off the wall compared to most pop/rock music. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 02:58
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Hmm, , why i dont love em' as much as King Crims, Gentle, Genesis ?
I dont find the singer very interesting, he simply bores me a little, besides of that, i actualy dont know why.
Nothing to do with no guitar - i love Stravinsky and Ben Webster ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 11:38
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One of my favorite prog bands, its hard to say why one love em so much thire music is yust perfect for me, i got all thire album and they are all great, toghter with KC the ultimate prog band. ------------- 
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 12:23
and for me there are lots of spine shivering moments on "Pawn Hearts". the "Maelstrom" section of "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers", for example, with the thundering pianos. Hammill singing "Would you cry if I died"? is another one. the "How can I be free?" part of "Man-Erg". the final section of "Lemmings". the triumphant ending of "Plague", wikh Banton doing a perfect imitation of Robert Fripp's guitar on his organ. and many, many more -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 12:57
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Quite unique as a band. I love them, if only for Hamill's voice and tyhe wonderful weirdness and off the wall approach to music which certainly jars sometimes, and makes it understandable why people won't go near them. I still regularly play The Wave during one of my Saturday night drinking/music sessions. I love that track and the intensity of Hamill sets him apart from a lot of other vocalists.  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 15:45
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It took me three tries to appreciate them. At first, I found them a bit slow and lugubrious (Godbluff was my first listen). Then a while later, I tried out "H to He...", and was bored by the lack of guitar, and again the slowness of the material.
Then I decided to investigate Peter Hammill himself. All at once, I bought a few classic Hammill albums, along with a few early VdGG albums. My verdict is that in order to appreciate VdGG, you have to accept and understand Hammill. He'll make or break it for you. His delivery, his lyrics, and his dark outlook are a huge part of what makes them tick. Once I became a Hammill fan, then I was easily able to digest the VdGG stuff. Even now, though, I prefer the solo albums to the band albums, for the most part. Although Pawn Hearts blows my mind. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 18:32
I am a bit amazed that you speak about the "slowness of material" on "Godbluff"".unless you come from Speed Metal: what is slow about songs like "Sleepwalkers" or "Scorched Earth"? and I would not call "Undercover Man" or "Arrow" exactly slow either. Van der Graaf Generator certainly don't try to impress the listener with flashy runs on their instruments, but to call the songs "slow" is a bit off the mark. and if you listen to the nuances of the instrumental play you will notice that the lack of flashy runs is definitely not due to the lack of skills on their instruments. being a keyboarder myself I certainly can detect what a fine player Hugh Banton is. and Friede, who is a drummer, says the same about Evans ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 18:46
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The slowness of VdGG? Well, not as slow as the first Black Sabbath. |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 20:13
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All this talk about of lack of guitar , but , for me I find it hard to get enthusiastic about any band that does not have a dedicated rhythm section of at least bass guitar and drums, and by dedicated, I don't mean a multi-instrumentalist who might pick up a bass some of the time - that's not a dedicated rhythm section.
So without a permanent and specialist bass player, you have an incomplete rhythm section and , dare I say it, an incomplete sound. I'm a little surprised that some of our existing or past band members out there have not mentioned - what I might call an inadequacy in the bands complement. I looked at the bands latest live release in this regard and remain dismayed . Call me old fashioned........ ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 21:06
He used the bass pedals on the organ doesn't he? ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 22:16
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Depends on the album, Nic Potter was around up until The Least... And seriously, the lack of permanent "just" bass player ruins the songs for you despite the top notch songwriting? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 22:23
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Yes, Equality, because rock snobs are the worst type of snobs. :P ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 22:31
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I've tried very hard, because there is definitely some magic that they capture that I wish I could really just appreciate. But it's hard. Hammill's voice is not pleasant, and the instrumentation is not either. I'm open to alot of music, but they just don't quite work for me. Yet.
The best reasons I can come up with are when I listen to Discipline's Unfolded Like Staircase. Everything VdGG does, they do, but on pitch, and with a more sonic awareness. It's like VdGG are poets trying to be musicians and Discipline is the reincarnation with musicians trying to be poets. And that doesn't quite capture it, but it points in the right direction. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: XunknownX
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 23:02
| Real art devides. |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: July 17 2009 at 02:14
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My comments above are made in the full knowledge of the roles played by Hugh Banton and , for instance, Nic Potter , in the bands history esp. in the recording studio.
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong , but Hugh Banton seems to me to be an organist/kbd player first and foremost, and without wanting to sound too flippant people, last time I looked it was pretty difficult to play a keyboard instrument and a bass guitar at the same time and do justice to either. Regarding the use of pedals, as atmospheric and mellow bottom-endy as pedals may be, they don't cut the mustard in ' rhythm section ' terms imo. It was one of the disappointments for me of THE DOORS, esp. in live performance [ yes, i'm aware they used session players on some albums e.g. ' The Soft Parade '. They must have realised something ] ! In this regard, most drummers I know prefer to drive the rhythm with the augmentation or assistance of a bass. Perhaps then, the many VdGG enthusiasts out there could be asked whether they consider the band has a complete rhythm section and if so , what it is comprised of. If not, what do they consider is missing . They could be asked, but will they respond ? ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: Kestrel
Date Posted: July 17 2009 at 02:32
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To me, Evans is such a confident drummer that a permanent bassist is superfluous. It is hard for me to describe in words what exactly that means, but hopefully someone else does.  Side question: Does the song Sleepwalkers have bass guitar? I can't tell...
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: July 17 2009 at 03:31
they are mostly not supposed to be pleasant. I would rather have a singer who is able to capture what the lyrics are about than a singer who sings everything pleasantly. Hammill's voice can be very pleasant, I assure you of that, but only when the topic is right for it.. have a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHP_tZHyFAg - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHP_tZHyFAg still not convinced of his voice? then nothing ever will convince you ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: July 17 2009 at 08:00
Well, Banton actually plays bass on the studio tracks, I think all the one's after Potter, but I'm not completely certain. I don't miss it in any case. Live, he actually did play bass on at least one song (on the DVD released a while ago of the Godbluff show). As far as guitar, there is guitar on nearly every song..........either Hammill's acoustic (early 70's) or electric (mid to late 70's) or Fripp (on The Emperor in his War Room solo and the entire Pawn Hearts album). In any even, I don't notice any lack in that area or bass guitar for that matter. Also, Potter played on H to He, about half the tracks, with Banton playing the bass on the rest. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: July 17 2009 at 08:11
For the sake of the Peace and good will, ill put Pawn Hart on when i get home  ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 17 2009 at 08:18
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This is one of those bands I can't get into. Sure there are one or two decent songs. Overall, I find the music bland and the vocal texture bothersome. Some bands just click with people. And I also find with the music coming out today, it's more difficult to get into older Prog bands that I am not already a fan of, regardless of their importance. ------------- 
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: July 17 2009 at 08:21
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I love VDGG, but I guess many people will dislike it because of arrangements and the sound. They sound raw. They sound sharp. They're nowhere near smooth symphonic layers of mellotron melted with guitar solo. They sound like forcing to put bones of a dinosaur, a pig, a human and a rhino into a unique skeleton. But I like it. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 17 2009 at 13:05
If you want voices to be pleasant VdGG is the wrong address for you. Hammill wants you to feel the feelings the songs are about, and those are rarely pleasant feelings. The right attitude to listen to Hammill's singing is to let him take you on a ride on the emotional rollercoaster called life. And there are a lot of unpleasant feelings on that ride. If you are not ready for that, beware of VdGG. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 17 2009 at 22:20
I agree with this post, not only in relation to VDGG but in general. I love pleasant singing where it's appropriate but I don't go looking for a pleasant/unpleasant voice, whether the singer's treatment of the material is convincing or not is more important to me. I want to ask a question to all VDGG fans at large: how many of you are reminded of Halford in the 70s when you listen to Hammill...or rather, does Halford remind you of Hammill, depending on who you heard first? The first thing that struck me when I heard VDGG for the first time was that he sounded so much like my metal God Halford, but in a completely different context and that was reason enough to keep visiting VDGG for me.
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 01:26
Must be because you haven't been paying attention.
That's truly the worst advice you could come up with, moshkito. Silent Corner... is probably the easiest soloalbum to get into. Its got a full band and magnificent guitarplaying by Spirit's Randy California (you know, for all the rockers), and you are reccomending stuff to progrock-fans here. Starting with Skin would be the wrong advice to almost anyone I guess, and definitely to someone who's already a fan of some kind of experimental rock. What's so hard to understand about Red Shift? Its spacerock and just about as catchy as Hammill gets. H to he... is obviously the safest album to start with. Its got guitar and bass (not that i care), a singalong antem like Killer, a stunning ballad, none of the harsh vocals Still Life is full of and nothing too extreme like Arrow or A Plague... + its filled with classics. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 01:31
I agree completely..Killer and House With No Door are what really grabbed me and made me a fan. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: July 20 2009 at 08:03
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Lodij van der Graaf
Date Posted: July 21 2009 at 03:56
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Van Der Graaf Generator, why does the world hates them? I think it's because they really don't want to serve the world with their music. They seemed not purposely make a music to attracts the world, like most of the other acts. They just plays what they wanted to play, composes songs what they wanted to compose. It's relentless, Peter Hammill is really an idealistic. He won't care whether the world will like his works or hate 'em. Van Der Graaf Generator, why does the world love them? Because they made music that considered GREAT by men wise enough to interpret it. And in addition, their history is quite unique as a band. VDGG divided into 2 (now 3) sagas. First is The Least - Pawn Hearts saga, second is Godbluff - World Record saga, and third is present saga. The style of each period is differ from one another. The first saga was the more chaotic and loud style, while the second one borne more balanced and kicking arrangements. Here is the essential Van Der Graaf Generator: 1st saga: Pawn Hearts 2nd saga: Still Life 3rd saga: Trisector The relationship between their frontman, Peter Hammill, and the band is even more bizarre. One familiar with 'em must be understand how Peter Hammill and VDGG are very hard to separate. And it so hard to be judged wheter that was Peter Hammill's or VDGG's. For instance, Peter Hammill's Nadir's Big Chance saw Peter worked all together with VDGG members. Maybe one judge an album was Peter Hammill's because of it's labelled under Peter Hammill's name written upon its cover. |
Posted By: AtlantisAgony
Date Posted: July 25 2009 at 20:13
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I initially didn't like VdGG either, like many others here. Now they're one of my favorites. I think the lack of melodic 'hooks' is an important factor. There's not many (upon first listen) cool riffs or pleasant melodies to get you interested, at least not in high rated albums like Pawn Hearts or Godbluff (which tend to be checked out first when you're new to the band). I was about to give up when "Pilgrims" from Still Life popped up in my playlist. That one fueled me for revisiting the mentioned albums. After listening to Godbluff for some time, things started falling into place. "Scorched Earth" for instance started to become pretty damn catchy, "The Undercover Man" a beatiful yet powerful piece. A funny thing is that I find the most obscure things to be catchy about the band. For instance I find myself humming that strange little accoustic guitar intro to "Lemmings" (!), or the crazy sax-drum interplay in "Cogs", or in "Still Life" when Hammill sings "... and ultimately passing away time" calmly and then just sort of speaks "... which no longer has any meaning" before the drums, heavy organ and aggressive sax break loose. That just fits so perfectly with the lyrics. There are tons of more examples like these. But I bet not many of them seem particularly special (rather, they'll probably seem weird) to someone not familiar with the band. ------------- proggity prog prog |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: July 26 2009 at 05:00
I have to disagree about there not being many immediately cool riffs on "Pawn Hearts" or "Godbluff"; on the contrary, it was the abundance of cool riffs which attracted me immediately. I did have problems with the voice at first though ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: The Sleepwalker
Date Posted: July 26 2009 at 12:42
There seem to be a lot of people who say that Van Der Graaf Generator does not have catchy hooks or riffs. I have never really understood that, I actually think VDGG has made lots of catchy stuff. To name a few; The Necromancer, Killer, House With No Door, the first part of Lost, S.H.M, Kosmos Tours and (Custard's) Last Stand from A Plague Of Lighthouse Keepers, Scorched Earth, Sleepwalkers. I really have had some of these songs in my head for days, and I think VDGG has made some very extraordinary, but at the same time catchy riffs. ------------- 
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Posted By: Kestrel
Date Posted: July 26 2009 at 12:55
I totally agree. I love it when VDGG gets into a groove, especially the build up to the sax solo on Sleepwalkers or the middle of Still Life. Prog that makes me want to dance!
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Posted By: AtlantisAgony
Date Posted: July 26 2009 at 13:21
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I think VDGG has lots of catchy riffs and grooves too, I guess what I tried to say was that for a new listener it might not always appear that way. And the rough soundscapes and odd instrumentation might also put some off. Anyways, when talking about catchiness, 'Arrow' must have one of their best rock grooves (after Hammill sings "How swiftly comes the arrow!", about 5:28 into the song.) Its almost funky with the clavinet and all! ------------- proggity prog prog |
Posted By: Lodij van der Graaf
Date Posted: July 27 2009 at 02:51
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The has ballads! "House with No Door", "Man-Erg", "Undercover Man" etc.
------------- Grace is a name, like Chastity, like Lucifer, like mine!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 04:42
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Inasmuch as the public cannot recognise the charm, the beauty, even the outlines of nature save in the stereotyped impressions of an art which they have gradually assimilated, while an original artist starts by rejecting those impressions, so M. and Mme. Cottard, typical, in this respect, of the public, were incapable of finding, either in Vinteuil's sonata or in Biche's portraits, what constituted harmony, for them, in music or beauty in painting. It appeared to them, when the pianist played his sonata, as though he were striking haphazard from the piano a medley of notes which bore no relation to the musical forms to which they themselves were accustomed, and that the painter simply flung the colours haphazard upon his canvas. When, on one of these, they were able to distinguish a human form, they always found it coarsened and vulgarised (that is to say lacking all the elegance of the school of painting through whose spectacles they themselves were in the habit of seeing the people--real, living people, who passed them in the streets) and devoid of truth, as though M. Biche had not known how the human shoulder was constructed, or that a woman's hair was not, ordinarily, purple. Marcel Proust, Swann’s Way ------------- He say nothing is quite what it seems; I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 06:07
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When i have listened to VDGG for the first time i realised that it was very different compare to my favorite bands : Genesis, Yes and Rush. Dark, complex music that require more listening to appreciate. But i didn't say to myself : "I hate that music" I knew that it was different kind of prog and not bad in itself. Today i like the band when they played live, because they play their best songs. I still have trouble to appreciate a complete album from them, when they goes on playing some of their darker songs, but i enjoyed listening to the very original voice of Peter Hamill and the excellent keyboards.
------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: AtlantisAgony
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 06:24
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It was about the same with me. Compared to Genesis, Camel, Yes etc. their music seemed at times chaotic (of course with exceptions, but at the time I only had Pawn Hearts and Godbluff and those aren't known for being the easiest albums), unstructured, and lacking direction, but after repeated listens, things started falling into place. The music is really none of the mentioned. It's just highly complex. For anyone trying to get into the band, just keep trying! :p (and start with one of their easier albums, like H to He ("House With no Door"), The Least We Can Do is Weave to Each Other ("Refugees", "Darkness") or Still Life ("Pilgrims", "Still Life", "My Room")) ------------- proggity prog prog |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 04:56
| A lot of bands wanted to sound like Genesis of Pink Floyd... but I know no band that has Van der Graaf Generator influences... they have a lonely concept. The vocals might be to intense en confrontating for a lot of people out there. |
Posted By: Quasarsphere
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 12:37
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I heard two albums of VDGG: Godbluff, and Pawn Hearts. But I cannot become convinced to them. Because I heard so often very positive opinions about these albums, tell me what is most exciting there, and which works of Van Der Graff is most preffered for beginners.
------------- Quasarsphere - Ambitious Music Lover. Pozdrawiam fanów dobrego rocka z Polski. |
Posted By: AtlantisAgony
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 12:54
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I wrote some recommendations yesterday in my last post here: H to He ("House With no Door"), The Least We Can Do is Weave to Each Other ("Refugees", "Darkness") or Still Life ("Pilgrims", "Still Life", "My Room"). I think these albums (and the songs in parentheses especially) should be easiest to get into.
edit: I don't exactly get your other question. Do you mean which tracks off Pawn Hearts and Godbluff are the most exciting? Well, that depends, but in my book "Arrow" (past the free jazz opening) is an absolute highlight from Godbluff and "Man-Erg" is the high point on Pawn Hearts. I think to fully appreciate these albums take a lot of listening. What makes them so highly rated will either be revealed to you, or you'll hate them and consider VDGG overrated. That seems to be the only two options :p
------------- proggity prog prog |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 14:15
Hard to explain why I found it "slow" (and no, I don't come from a Speed Metal background, although I do enjoy punk a lot). I guess it's not the tempo itself as much as the song development. Their songs seem to take a while to unfold (or at least it seemed so at the time), and on my first and second tries at getting into them, I just didn't have the patience to wait it out and truly understand what they were trying to do. Their music doesn't offer too many easy entry points for the casual listener - though ultimately I think that has been to their credit. The fact that I appreciate them as much as I do now (now that I'm 40), whereas they bored me when I was 20, I think is a testament to their lasting value.
Bear in mind too, that my prior assessment of "Godbluff" was based on hearing just 2 of the 4 tracks (I forget which ones, sorry, but they were on a compilation CD), Now I have Godbluff again, and finally understand how amazing and dynamic it is. The only other album I'd heard prior to recently was "H to He" (I still don't understand why "Killer" is so highly regarded, but that's another topic). In any case, they're among my favorite bands to listen to today, along with Hammill's solo material. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |