Did Classical Music influence Prog?
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Topic: Did Classical Music influence Prog?
Posted By: deafmoon
Subject: Did Classical Music influence Prog?
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 07:43
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Strange as it may seem, I believe so. If we examine: the long forms, changing sections, form structure of establishing themes, solos, theme illusion and recapitulation and reiteration of theme; they all seem to be inherent in the very best that prog has to offer. Look at Close To The Edge, Gates Of Delirium, Karn Evil 9, Dogs, Suppers Ready, The Colony Of Slippermen, Thick as A Brick. All of them have the many qualities of classical music that was created by the masters. For an easy relaxing listen to exemplify my point; listen to Schubert's Unifinished Symphony. It's only two movements and the theme is stated up front in the melody early on and weaved in and out of the total 25 minutes combined of the two movements. The standard form of symphonic style was four movements, so because Franz Schubert only wrote the two movements before he died at 31 years old; it was simply titled Unfinished.
Some actually suspect it wrote only the two sections intentionally; but I disagree, as the recapitulation and reiteration of the theme in the first movemnt is eluded too, but never resurfaces with power, as was Schubert's style, in the last movement.
What say you on this topic of classical music and it's influence on classic prog?
PS - If you haven't ever listened to classical music, you owe it to yourself to at least check out Beethoven's 5th Symphony, Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony, Mozart's 40th, Stravinsky's Rite Of Spring and Dvoraks New World Symphony. There are many many other fine works that you can dig into for yourself. Afterall, to know where Prog is going you should know where it came from. ------------- Deafmoon |
Replies:
Posted By: progmetalhead
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 08:20
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp#definition - http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp#definition
 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112 Colt - Admin Team MMA 
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Posted By: The Switch Blade
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 11:22
Yes.
------------- http://last.fm/user/theswitchblade |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 12:03
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Does the Pope sh*t in the woods?
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Pale Ale
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 12:19
The Short answer to this is yes. I can think of quite a few progressive pieces that are easily linked to classical music from the top of my head. Five bridges suite, and Pictures at an exhibition immediately come to mind. However I think that you can go further, that mordern classical composers such as Stravinsky, Reich and Stockhausen had a more immediate affect on the likes of Zappa, Eno, Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk, Can etc ------------- Please check out my page http://www.myspace.com/thenadaistas |
deafmoon wrote:Posted By: splyu
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 12:27
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What I'd find more interesting (as the answer to the original question is pretty obvious) would be to discuss which classical composers had (or may have had) an influence on which particular band. For example, I'd imagine that Genesis were quite influenced by British composers such as Vaughan Williams, Delius, Bax, and also by French ones like Debussy, Ravel. (I think I saw Tony name-drop a few composers in some interview... there were a few Russian ones as well IIRC, probably Tchaikovsky and / or Rachmaninov, or Prokofjev) Mike Oldfield was very strongly influenced by Sibelius and also by the "minimalists" Steve Reich, Philip Glass and Terry Riley. He also liked (and probably still likes!) Stravinski, Vaughan Williams, Rodrigo, Holst, Delius and Debussy. etc... |
Posted By: SentimentalMercenary
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 12:32
I was one of the collaborators on this Wikipedia page  It's still a mess, but we all agreed over there that classical music is at the very foundation of prog. Prog only strayed away form it in newer genres as time went by. I'd even say that there are genres covered by PA that have a thinner link to vintage prog than classical music! ------------- Those who promise us paradise on earth never produced anything but a hell. - Karl Popper |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 12:35
My thoughts exactly...there are lots of resources here to learn about prog. Feel free to avail yourself of the time people have spent compiling them. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 13:53
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Classical music influenced
Everything
In terms of western music of course. ------------- 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 13:56
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I'm going to stick my neck out and say "No" - I don't believe Prog is anywhere near as influenced by Classical Music as most people think it is, want it to be, or wish it was.
Sure there are one or two bands who took direct influence from classical composers for some of their music, and a number of bands who were in turn influenced by those bands, but the majority of Prog bands (from all subgenres) have little or no Classical Music influence at all.
In this I do not mean the use of melotron and string synths to emulate an orchestral sound, or the expansion of simple 12 & 16 bar "pop" song format into extended forms where the middle 8 becomes a succession of longer interludes and diversions (practically little more than extended jams), but where the structure and complexity of the music follows techniques that would instantly be recognisable as "classical music" if arranged for an orchestra or ensemble instead of a what is essentially still a "beat-combo". This excludes all those Royal Philharmonic Orchestra Plays The Hits Of... type albums, which are merely rock songs played by an orchestra and still cannot be called Classical Music.
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Posted By: JD
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 15:16
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No, classical music didn't influence prog. But you can be sure it was at least one of the catalysts for the beginnings. It's hard not to believe so if you listen to classical music with any regularity. And not in the fact (as was previously mentioned) that prog bands cover or snip classical references. But in the mood and ability to challenge the mind with the music.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 19:30
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This certainly ain't as clear cut as it first appears methinks. Although both Jon Lord and Keith Emerson have scored symphonic works exploiting orchestral resources (i.e the classically trained penguins) neither had formal training in the discipline. Most of the prog I have heard that cites inspiration from classical music is restricted to: textural (using orchestral instruments or impersonating same via synths) quotation (assimilating themes and melodies out-with their context) pastiche (faux fugues, rondos, boleros etc but using rock vocabulary) If classical music were to be a significant influence on prog, much of the core pulse of the latter would require to be compromised, leaving us with a critter that we might not recognise as 'rawk' in any of its current guises. You could also make a convincing argument that the opposite is more prevalent i.e. rock music could be deemed to be a significant influence on the minimalist composers of 'systems music' (Glass, Reich, Riley, La Monte Young) Time for my nap now. ------------- 
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Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 20:13
| Are you serious? I thought classical music was acknowledged as being one of the main influences on prog? |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 20:18
Depends on what "Prog" and what "Classical Music" we're talking about, methinks. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 20:25
RIO/Avant Garde Prog and 20th Century/Contempory of course
 The rest are pastiche or faux-classical. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 20:25
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 20:53
...even then I think you have to be both careful and selective in what you consider to be classical influenced or merely derivative - not all Avant Garde Prog is directly influenced by Contemporary Classical music (there - I can spell Contemporary when I try).
...and many purists and ClassicFM listeners would not regard Contemporary as being "Classical Music" ------------- What? |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 20:58
| Sure - I'm basically with you by the way - an influence from classical music, while not non-existent, is overstated, I think in most progressive outfits. Certainly in most of the "prog" I enjoy, jazz is the overwhelming influence. |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: August 29 2009 at 21:03
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Yes, of course Prog is influenced by Classical. So many prog artists have had classical training, and there are significant differences in the prog approach to rock than in the blues approach - structure, tonality, etc. This is not to say that Classical is the only influence, though. Rock, at its core, is blues, and we see plenty of that in Prog, notably in Heavy-Prog and Proto-Prog bands. There is also a Jazz influence, and a Raga influence, and a Celtic influence, etc. as well. At the same time, let's acknowledge that Classical is a broad category. Beethoven is not the same as Stravinsky. To run down specific instances of influence would be a matter of identifying the influences of individual musicians in Prog. Is the Classical influence seen everywhere? Probably not. Is it seen in many prominent artists? Most certainly. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 04:07
| If you can hear classical influences in prog, that doesn't mean the composers used them. We are all using the 12 note western music system, mostly with themes in one key. The mathmetics show us a lot of possible chordprogressions and they may re-occur in a different musical genre. The symphonic sound can be explained as an urge for the musician to fill up the part of high pitch spectrum of the music, which was kind of empty when they played bluess. What I just want to say is that prog a very different mindset, not like classical music. Good prog is about breaking the rules and good classical music is about using the rules in a nice way. Connection isn't alway correlation. |
Posted By: PinkPangolin
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 04:20
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Isn't all music influenced by all music??? To really understand the answer you need to go back to the beginning of time when man discovered music - then work out what happened ever since - a lifetime's project for somebody there!! Was there a "Prog-caveman"?  pp |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 04:26
Prog-caveman had the same mental capacity as modern humans and were within all probability musical. Evidence of a flute like object found at a dig of a Neanderthal site has suggested that even our closest evolutionary cousin was musically inclined. Given that the equal tempered scale was some 25,000 years away, any music they made would have been atonal, microtonal, possibly polyrhythmic and certainly not based around 16-bar blues ... pretty Prog if you ask me.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: PinkPangolin
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 04:44
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Yep, Dean - I think it must have Prog - I mean everything they did was with care and they were less distracted - look at those cave paintings - they were cool works of art Hey! Was that flute from the ancestor of Ian Anderson? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 04:48
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I haven't seen a cave-painting of a flute player standing on one leg, but the caves at Lascaux were closed when I last visited the Dordogne. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 05:15
How many Prog artists have had formal classical training?
No one in Genesis,
No one in Floyd,
No one in Jethro Tull,
No one in ELP,
No one in VdGG,
No one in Gentle Giant,
No one in the Moody Blues,
No one in Camel,
No one in Henry Cow,
No one in Rush,
Not Jon Lord of Deep Purple - he studied acting,
Only Tony Kaye in Yes (not Wakeman - he never finished the course), Tony Levin in King Crimson, Karl Jenkins in Soft Machine,
RJ Godfrey in The Enid,
Pierre Moerlen in Gong, Holger Czukay in Can,
Christian Vander in Magma,
Most current and past members of Dream Theater (though I don't think Rudess finished the course)
... of those that had formal classical training in playing an instrument, how many had training in composing? ------------- What? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 06:34
Some prog is and some isn't but generally prog rock is a fusion of styles, and takes elements from almost every genre of music there is, from blues to folk to jazz and dare I say it even pop (I know I'll be strung up for that last claim..  )
It's easy to see the classical influences in some bands like ELP, The Enid, Renaissance etc, but in terms of composition, the likes of Yes, Genesis, VDGG, Tull and KC all have classical influences, even if not obviously so. Quite typically, these artists - especially in their longer works - will have themes which are reprised later in the work, in a different form; perhaps in a different key, at a different tempo, perhaps underpinned with a bit of dischord and counterpoint. You can hear this throughout Close to the Edge, Suppers Ready, Thick as a Brick to name but a few. Listen to most classical works and you'll hear this obvious principle at work, and generally it was not an approach to song writing that pop or blues based rock acts would follow, with some exceptions I'm sure. In terms of the complexity of composition in classical music, it was inevitable that prog acts would draw on classical music influences when composing their more complex pieces. Someone mentioned that classical music formed the besis of all western music, and I would agree with this to some degree. Was it not Mozart who worked out that repition of themes in music always went down well with an audience? Presumably, this idea formed the basic principle of the verse/chorus/verse chorus song structure we see in most rock and pop music. Now, we all like t think of our favourite musicians as being utter geniuses, who have had years of classical training, but in truth they were just good musicans, who probably had some piano lessons in their youth and then practiced their arses off, until they reached the standard required to make the music of their choice. So, yes, I would acknowledge some major classical influence on prog rock, but lets not lose sight of the fact, that these guys are rock musicians, not classically trained virtuosos..
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 06:37
 well said Andy  ------------- What? |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 08:12
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The answer would be yes. Try giving "The Planets" by HOLST a spin. MARS, THE BRINGER OF WAR is pretty much THE DEVIL'S TRIANGLE from King Crimson's ITWOP. See for yourself, you may not believe it at first. Yes it is very strange to hear this. The center section of the piece is duplicated on LUCIFER'S FRIEND- SUMMER DREAM from Where The Groupies Killed The Blues. And it is exact in notation. Next we have a piece which (I can't remember the title), which if you just let this beautiful record play in it's entirety, you won't miss it. It is the intro for NO OPPORTUNITY NECESSARY from Yes-Time AND a Word. Also a piece called Joybringer which turns up again, note for note on MANFRED MANN'S EARTH BAND....SOLAR FIRE album. If you listen very close you will hear many other excerpts or hooks and lines in prog that have been directly taken from HOLST The Planets. I can't remember them all. But every progger should purchase a copy of this recording just to see and hear many of your favorite bands pieces that are contained within. It makes this listening experience of "The Planets" an adventure for a source of true entertainment and education in music. Buy it and see for yourself. HOLST, The PLANETS was like a bible (so to speak), for many progressive rock bands from the early 70's that laid the musical foundation for all. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 08:46
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 11:45
Sorry for nitpicking, but Lindsay Cooper did have formal classical training. She studied at the Dartington College of Arts and the Royal College of Music in the late 1960s. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 12:14
not nitpicking Pat - I was too lazy to check every member's credentials - only those of Frith and Hodgkinson, who I assumed where the primary "composers" in the formative years of HC.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: unclemeat69
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 14:30
I think Kerry Minear came fresh out of conservatory when he joined GG and he had studied classical music Composition as well (of the top of my head). And several of the first wave prog-bands (GG, VDGG, Yes, KC, Magma) admitted listening to classical composers back in their heyday (early 70's) ------------- Follow your bliss |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 14:52
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Well, about classical training, Robert Görl had a classical training. He was the drummer of DAF.  |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 15:00
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Act I by Beggars Opera :-) that's it
------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 30 2009 at 21:52
 Great piece! |
Posted By: camilleanne
Date Posted: August 31 2009 at 05:06
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Yes.
------------- The planet is fine the people are f**ked. -George Carlin- |
Posted By: valravennz
Date Posted: August 31 2009 at 06:19
The best post so far...------------- 
"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence" - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: August 31 2009 at 06:29
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Classical music obviously influenced some of the prog around. Many examples have already been stated.
More interesting though, is it's influence in the early stages of the development of prog. Like most music proto-prog was a result of the music that came immediately before, i.e. (modal) jazz (Davis, Brubeck, Coltrane) and modern classical music, most notably Stockhausen. And of course, ROCK!
A sigificant amount of proto-prog can also be directly traced back to the folk music of the early 60's (Dylan - Byrds - Jefferson Airplane).
Also, (movie, televison) soundtracks (Peter Gunn...) and Broadway musical scores. Sci-fi movies introduced space music a.s.o.
But the influence from classical, apart from modern classical? I don't see the link. It couldn't be further removed from it. On the contrary, rock influenced classical music! Nonetheless, it's true that the core of prog is capable of absorbing all the genres that predated it (such as classical).
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Posted By: aspinosa
Date Posted: August 31 2009 at 08:22
| whithout doubt prog was mainly infuenced by classical music and jazz music, stravinsky's Firebird is the best piece ever created in 20th century... |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: August 31 2009 at 08:24
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Please dont use "training" and "Education" as a value stamp on Art.
Van Gogh had very little education, still he is an OK painter, same goes for Music.
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: SentimentalMercenary
Date Posted: August 31 2009 at 10:15
Great post.Also, my girlfriend being a classically trained musician, I can tell why most of our "favourite musicians" gave up on classical training. They break your back there (after they broke your hands and fingers of course). Those few who make it dont get out like they were when they got in.
This being said, the fact that most prog rock musicians didnt complete a classical training does not mean that they have not been influenced by classical. Classical clearly influenced the early symphonic prog bands in terms of composition. That is obvious to me. ------------- Those who promise us paradise on earth never produced anything but a hell. - Karl Popper |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 31 2009 at 15:17
I wasn't.
I was just pointing out that the claim that many of our prog artists had classical training was not a valid argument.
Also, Van Gogh actually had fair amount of training, including studying at the Royal Academy of Art in The Hague. ------------- What? |
Posted By: bartje
Date Posted: August 31 2009 at 16:21
| That is a wonderful post- so true and gives this website even more dignity than it already has. Check out Mahler Symphonies&-Lieder -and lots more Stravinsky- etc etc etc - prog did emerge from the womb of classical music and became it's own art form! |
Posted By: Relayer Duos
Date Posted: August 31 2009 at 18:03
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I think some of us are diving too far into comparing end results to really figure this out. Let's think of prog at a fundamental level as simply making music. If we look at all our loved classical composers they are actually doing the exact same thing, simply creating music for the world to enjoy. One argument that seems to reoccur often is that fact that prog was derived from the blues/rock/jazz, which would therefore mean it is not based in classical roots. If you look at Stravinsky or Stephen Reich's music, does it seem to be based in 'classical music'? Penderecki's masterpiece "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima" not only sounds like it's not based from any legitimate classical composer, but doesn't even look like it if you study the score (because it's primarily pictoral symbols). These composers are are legitimate composers whose work is praised in the classical community. The difference between them and Beethoven, Brahms, or Bach, is that they use a different vocabulary in their music--they take very musical concepts and ideas and bring them into the world of sounds with very unique and new sounds. If the sound of 24 violins all playing their very highest note at set intervals screeching away (Threnody) is accepted, why can't music based on rock vocabulary be revered the same way? Likely it will never be revered at 'classical' music, per say, but that doesn't mean they are all that different. Maybe proggers aren't actually drawing their musicality from classical music--maybe they're drawing it from the same source.
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: August 31 2009 at 20:03
| If you have any training or have studied music, you can see the many similarities between progressive and classical music. Also, it should be considered that many prog musicians, like Rick Wakeman for example, are trained in classical music, so the influence indeed shows in their compositions and arrangement. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 31 2009 at 20:29
"He [Rick Wakeman] initially studied piano, clarinet, orchestration and modern music at the Royal College of Music, but he left of his own accord after a year and a half in favour of work as a session musician." - wikipedia (and in many other sources too)
1˝ years of a 4 year course does not qualify as being 'trained in classical music'. I'm not taking anything way from Wakeman's skill in playing, composing or arranging. I do not deny that what knowledge he learnt in that time was sufficient to be applied to the music he produced with Yes and that helped elevate that music to a new level, but Yes were developing longer multipart song structures (on The Yes Album) before Wakeman joined and he isn't credited with anything on Fragile and only 'Siberian Khatru' on Close to the edge ------------- What? |
Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 02:08
Ha! What rubbish!
Beethoven broke ALL the rules in his day, as did Haydn, Stravinsky, etc. A very long list!
That's because they were "Progressive"! Maybe not "Rock" (but they'd never heard of rock then, or electric guitars), but that's what "classical" and "Prog" have in common, or used to have, anyway.
Keith
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Posted By: XunknownX
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 05:15
silliest question ever
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Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 05:47
Ah, so I see you're putting down someone else's opinions here too? ------------- 
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Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 06:29
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I would like to add the extra theme to this debate.
Maybe many of the US prog bands have far less classical influence (not all, I know) and are more routed in rock, blues, jazz.
Whilst many European prog bands are much more classically influenced and routed in rock and classical, and maybe less blues and jazz.
Maybe this is where the debate could find some 'reason' or explanation?
It would seem reasonable, to me, for the above to have some general merit.
On the "Yes" (classical) side, many here have included Genesis, Yes, ELP, VDGG, Crimson, PFM, Enid, and many more whos "classical" (at least from the birth of the symphony onwards) influence is obvious. Mostly European bands.
On the "No" side, the inclusions are along the lines of Rush, Dream Theatre etc. whos "classical" influence is indeed dubious. Mostly US prog bands.
One last item for this debate is "Classical".
If we determine this to mean the classical era and onwards, which for mostly classically influenced bands seems reasonable, we are going to compound the debate when it comes to less classical and more rock/blues influenced bands who often quote influences by Bach, Paganini etc.
What do we mean by Classical?
If we include Bach, Paganini and the other vituosi pioneers, then that backs up the "Yes" camp.
If we don't include that, the chasm open up again (and we have a debate agaon).
But I am immediately humoured, by suddenly remembering the band Gryphon (anyone else?) and their use of the Crummhorn from a much earlier musical era., so I am in danger of blowing my argument out of the water before I finish my posting. LOL!
Ah fun! I nearly passed the beers around!
Keith
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Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 06:39
I don't think "Did Classical Music influence Prog?" is an opinion.
Keith
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Posted By: Hyardacil
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 09:28
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So... did classical music influence prog? ... No, apparently obviously not.... ------------- "I am sitting in your eyes..." |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 10:41
That's a cover of a classical piece and does not demonstrate any influence of classical music on ELP's original music, let alone on Prog. Similarily, Eno's cover of The Lion Sleeps Tonight (Wimoweh) does not show that Ambient Electronic is influenced by Do-Wop.
And I acknowledge that ELP were one of those bands, 'Pictures' does not prove that but "The Three Fates" does.
------------- What? |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 11:02
I'm of the opinion that we're working so hard to define something that is not really there ...
All music, in general, is a progression, or extension of the very things that we learned as youngsters, and the one thing that I would like to see written in here before I die, is the thought be accepted that the majority of these people that we happen to like and appreciate, are, for th emost part, very well educated musicians that know what they are doing with an instrument ... and sometimes they want to stretch that chord and sometimes they want to break that chord and sometimes they want to _____ that chord ...
All in all, though, there are schools of thought out there ... for example, the krautrock scene came out of a film/theater/arts that was doing some serious experimentations and free form jams, NOT based on chords or musical concepts ... I just saw a comment from Mani Neumeier about those experiments ... and it said "forget the clock, forget the time" ... and he is a drummer! And that tells you that at least some people were looking for MORE in music, than just what everyone knew out there ... and by eastern music concepts and ragas, they know/knew that more could be done ... also remember that one master instrumentalist and raga player, Ravi Shankar was one of the guest instructors at the Berlin Conservatory ... where many of these musicians also came from (Can, Embryo the most notable) ... and you know that these people knew music and notes.
Europe has a massive history of music and the arts, and they tend to respect it a lot more, and even rock artists are given more exposure and allowed to do things ... one can easily see to the success that folks that are more classically minded like Mike Oldfield, Vangelis, Riuichi Sakamoto, Klaus Schulze and experimental, and how they can get some amazing responses over there, and they can't even do a show in New York! ... check out Klaus Schulze with Lisa Garrard ... and that is all free form and improvised ... and that is something that American audiences are not capable of enjoying a whole lot ... I would imagine that the 3 minutes orgasm and song (I also call it iTunes) is the main reason for it ... classical music is dead in America ... and will be until ... they learn to give the new "composers" the credit they deserve, and should be getting ... Farnk Zappa included (for example) in this list.
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Posted By: Rank1
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 11:50
| I hate to be simplistic but of course Classical music had an influence on progressive rock just like Classical Indian music had a influence on prog. You hear it early on with proto-prog bands like the Beatles "For No One" and "Love You To" on Revolver. You hear it on the Doors also. And who did the Beatles influence most of the early Progressive Rock bands. I |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 12:03
I agree - all Prog definitions should come with the disclaimer "Prog Rock may contain some, all or none of the following..."
The act of living is an education - all musicians have learnt something about music by virtue of having learnt to play an instrument - some musicians can extrapolate that knowledge, while some cannot see further than what they have learnt. Some musicians can be technically skilled but lost in composition, or improvisation - for them a bum-note cannot be resolved because it deviates from the written score, while others can modate to a different key to resolve the error. In Classical music, improvisation such as that is not permitted, in Jazz it is possitively encouraged. In Prog we see a middle ground - where improvisation is more when the pieces are written than in a live environment (perhaps the real parallel to Classical music). Eg. A prog musician is more likely to play "What if..." games in the studio than on stage.
The simple act of listening to a piece of music is an education - to be able to recognise a motif repeated at some later point, to recognise that a refrain is a response to the previous refrain, that the placement of a note is a resolution to a previous note or set of notes, comes from just listening. That can be taught parrot-fashion, so that blind fact can be repeated without understanding of the fundamental reason why such a thing did happen, or could happen - education is meaningless without understanding.
Rock music is built around very simple rules - a set of rules for time signatures, number of bars, key signatures, chord progressions etc. Breaking those rules may be inspired by what happens in the non-Rock music world, but to keep it Rock it must adhere to those rules to some lesser degree or it will no longer be Rock, but someother musical form - even Avant Garde Prog has to maintain a level of Rock or it just becomes Avant Garde Music. Prog pushes those rules as far as it can without breaking the fundamental concept that it is still Rock and not electrified orchestral/jazz/folk/electronic music.
I think that geographical analysis has more to do perhaps with population densities - in European there will be a greater catchment for that kind of artistic endeavour for a given area, so the cognoscenti of New York or LA will be just as "cultured" as their European counterparts, just not as populous. Two (American) artists that counter that view may be Diamanda Galas and Laurie Anderson.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 15:40
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Classical music is just as difficult to define as Prog Rock.
Classical music doesn't really exist unless one is refering to the classical era that led to the grandious works of the symphonic form, but it seems to be used to cover hundreds of years of different music that was played by an orchestra (remember, they used what they had, there were no guitar, bass, drums that we know today).
But anyone that wanders off the well beaten path of Pop music (where the listener really doesn't care about the talents of musician or composer) you enter, to a lesser or greater degree, into the world of more serious music where both the composer and the virtuoso have used each other to demonstrate their skills.
It matters not if the Heavy Metal guitarist or the Avante Garde Jazz player is being considered, they are all influenced by that world of hundreds of years of more serious music. Both composer and vituoso draw from all of that no matter if the form is approaching symphonic or plain simple rock (I put prog rock somewhere in between) or completely free form.
Any musician that has learned some music theory and considers it, and it's rules, either to conform to it or break those rules, would not be able to do that were it not for the hundreds of years of more serious music that created those rules and music theory in the first place.
In fact, they wouldn't have any instruments to use, were it not for the continuos pushing of boundaries of the composer and viruoso of the past.
Unless you want to debate "what is classical music", the influence is impossible to deny in Prog rock simply because it's NOT Pop music.
Keith
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Posted By: ianashleigh
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 17:17
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Elton John is the Classically trained Reginald Dwight who has made a career out of the 3 minute pop song. Richard Thompson trained at a stained glass maker where the owners had radio 3 on all day which influenced his guitar style.
I beleive that Rick Wakeman and Keith Emerson were clasically trained but most prog rock has its roots in both blues and jazz. The classcal influence is due to the extended pieces that typify prog rock and can be compared or contrasted with the symphonic movement strucures.
Personally, I like music or I don't. I am comfortable listening to JS Bach, heavy rock, prog rock , traditional English folk music or pop - it depends on my mood and who I am with.
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Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 17:57
Just because one has piano lessons, doesn't make one classically trained.
You speak as if Blues and Jazz somehow parallel Classical? Where do you think Blues and Jazz came from?
Blues came from the (at the time) more popular "classical" music (though it wasn't called classical then) called the Waltz.
Jazz came from the more Modern Classical composers.
Which is as it should be, we all like our own variety of music.
Keith
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 18:00
Keith Emerson also only had Piano lessons - not classical training. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 18:13
Exactly!
Ones' training doesn't determine which musical direction one takes. Plenty of Pop musicians were classically trained, as were Jazz players, as were Prog players, etc.
Players that have no training whatsoever, are still free to develope an understanding and/or love/hate for all forms of music, and they do, all the time.
The issue is the influence in Prog rock, which may have nothing to do with ones training.
Keith
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 18:30
------------- What? |
Posted By: lildabaduye
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 19:27
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This is one of those questions where each side has a strong point.
I was attracted to prog as a wee lass because of its classical leanings, and sometimes, borrowings. When I mention "classical" I mean traditional western, orchestral music, including Renaissance, Baroque, Rococo, Classical, Romantic, 20th Century. Also I think prog has a lot in common with jazz and with folk musics (of the world)
You can look at the "fugue", "fantasia", "sonata-allegro" or other classical forms and see how many prog artists use these forms to develop their musical ideas.
An obvious example is ELP with all of the classical motifs boorrowed and otherwised used (lessee, Bartok in "The Barbarian"; Mussorgsky, "Pictures at an Exhibition"; adaptation, "Knife Edge"; fugue, "Endless Enigma" and "Trilogy"; bolero "Abbadon's Bolero"; Chopin etude "Memoirs of an Officer..."; Mozart via Brubeck, "Rondo; and so on) ELP used jazz and blues too, listen to "Blues Variations" from "Take a Pebble" - even modal jazz in "Take a Pebble" or boogie woogie in Keith Emerson's hit record " Honky Tonk Train Blues". Folk leanings in ELP abound-- "The Sage" is a great example. So, they, especially, were frankly influenced in other musical forms.
But too, listen to other especially "symphonic" prog bands, and you can really see formal, classical structure (like the musical ABCBA arch) is used all the time. I would say, at least with foundational prog artists, they were mostly classically trained, if even for a short period of time (Rick Wakeman or Chris Squire come to mind for significant classical training) . I remember growing up in the 1960s and 70s, and most kids getting music lessons anywhere were getting a strong classical training, even in guitar, as their preliminary training. Guitar I mention because there are so many self trained musicians, who use books or get with friends to learn...
I would say that a lot of prog depends on classical, jazz, folk, for a variety of things: motif, structure, rhythms, etc.
Other prog, like prog metal, might not be so classically based. So it really depends on what you are listening to. But I think there is a great deal of agreement that this music was considered "progressive" because it endeavored to merge various musical influences into a rock context, sometimes wildly successful to less successful merging (well, there is a long list of lame music by great rock bands, I don't think I should start).
"Roundabout" is tops in the "wildly successful" songs. For those who either weren't around or don't remember, Roundabout was all over the am and fm radio for years. I heard Roundabout so often for so long., I had it memorized, and never owned Fragile. It really, as a song, opened the door for other prog bands to get prog hits. I mean, Kansas in the late 1970s, wouldn't have gotten Point of Know Return popular without the open door from Roundabout in the early 1970s. And there were other hits, like Karn Evil 9, or ""Wish You Were Here" that also broke amazing ground. A lot of prog did not get on the am pop charts, but stayed in fm land for the hardcore listener, because it wasn't so catchy. And a lot of prog bands got on the am pop charts in the 1970s only with less "proggy" -if that is a word!-songs, like "From the Beginning" or "Time" by the Floyd. I mean, "Tarkus", "Lizard" "Siberian Khatru" or a number of other prog hits did not go far on the am pop song charts. I don't remember hearing Tarkus at all on the am stations, but oh, boy the fm was loaded, so guess where I was)
I think a great question is whether prog artists (especially those who aren't adamantly striving to blend classical music into their rock) know, I mean really know, why they are doing what they are doing, in the sense of where their musical ideas come from, how they develop, and what they are using for their groundwork, and bottom line, what sounds good and right. I think, if we all examine our music that we make, we will probably find that a lot is from our personal musical experiences (what a concept) and much of our musical experiences, like childhood songs, here in the west at least, come from classical.
There are some books on prog that have come about since the late 1990s that really help explain the foundations of prog. I recommend that if you seriously want an answer to this endless question, get some of these materials and find out what the pros say about themselves, or about what musicologists say.
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Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 21:17
Well said!
Yeah, but not nearly as much fun as hashing it out here!
 Keith
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 21:59
I heard he fell over and broke his hip before he even made it to the woods. |
Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 01 2009 at 22:39
Thank you Dean,
Oh, Is Toyah ever allowed to withdraw the fingers?
Keith
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Posted By: ianashleigh
Date Posted: September 02 2009 at 15:46
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Elton John trained at the Royal Academy of Music that makes him classically trained in my opinion, he had more than a piano lesson.
I go back to my original point - music is for enjoyment not for putting in boxes and excluding or dismissing simply beacause it has been put in a random category by persons unknown. Who in this forum knows that Pete Sinfield (of King Crimson fame) wrote lyrics for Bucks Fizz (notably Land of Make Believe).
There is some pop that I thoroughly enjoy and there is some prog rock that I find unlistenable. If I like a peice of music, I like it I really don't care who its by or which genre it gets put in hence my very eclectic collection.
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Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 02 2009 at 17:09
I agree with you, I don't like all the genres etc. I don't believe people are like that, they're more like you and I, and have various musical likes accross the board.
I like Eltom John too, especially "Brown Dirt Cowboy" along with many other Pop artists. To Me, talent is talent, and I hope I can appreciate that an whatever level I can.
But....
The debate here is "Did Classical Music influence Prog?", so even though your opinion is most welcome, what's the argument here?
Oh, I hate to be so picky, but I need to clarify the "Elton John was classically trained". The correct perspective is, he won a junior scolarship for piano, at the age of 11 and attended until 17, but did not complete the subject, he dropped out.
Juniors get a 2 day a week attendance as part of their Secondary education, and this is not really that same as an University student attending full time at a tertiary level.
Hey, but he was a very good piano player, for sure.
Keith
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Posted By: SMSM
Date Posted: September 02 2009 at 18:12
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Progressive Rock is often modern classical music.
I state this because bands like Bowfire are often labled this, and get played on Arts Channels.
Unfortunately they do not play progressive rock bands whose material is often more complex and more interested in the music itself (and not the show), which the classical masters would approve of.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 02 2009 at 19:40
I honestly don't agree with this statement that I heard lots of times (I used to believe Wakeman would be considered a Classical performer in some time, but that's not truth), Progressive ROCK can't be Modern Classical or Neo Classical because of the ROCK component.
People tend to listen Neo Classical artists or bands and ask the Symphonic Team to admit them in Prog Archives, when as a fact both are two different species.
This is a misslabel, the only Bowfire I know is a Canadian string group that plays Jazz, Country, Bluegrass and some "Classical", with no Prog connection and not a real Classical enssemble either, they play some Classical pieces in their own style,.
And about Art Channells, I don't completely trust them, because they have to label the artists they program with pompous names to sell, I seen specials in Art Channels that consider Vanessa Mae Classical or Prog, and that's absurd.
Simply because Prog Rock is not Classical or Neo Classical.
It's undeniable that Prog has a Classical component and that certain Prog musicians like Emerson, Banks or Hackett have released Classical albums different to their Prog ones, but in the moment they blend Classical music with Rock, Jazz, Folk or whatever, it ceases to be Classical.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 02 2009 at 20:10
I used to believe this, but it's not completely accurate either.
Keith Emerson had Classical training with private teachers, he didn't studied in a conservatory, but he was trained in Classical Music by a certified teacher since the age of 8. I believe I read he had to take a test in UK to get an official certificate and he got it.
Lets remember that Jean-Luc Ponty only had to study 2 years in a Conservarory before he graduated and was awarded with the Premiere Prix, because he had studied violin with his father from the age of 5 to 15.
So, not studying in a conservatory doesn't mean you don't have classical formation, lets mention that some of the great masters only studied with other great masters and never in an official academy or Conservatory.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 02 2009 at 22:23
You are quite right, neither does it mean they'll play prog rock either!
This is quite true also, but not by choice. For the likes of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven, there were no conservatories to go to, even if they wanted.
Keith
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 02 2009 at 23:29
Not strictly acurate either. The École Royale de Chant was created by Louis XIV on 28 June 1696.and changed into the Conservatoire National Supérieur de Musique in 1795, if I'm not wrong in Germany there's an Academy of Arts founded in 1696, plus when we mention Classical, we incluude the Romantic era, when most of he countries had a Music School or Conservatory. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 00:21
Hey, I'm agreeing with you!
Anyway, you know very well the École Royale de Chant was a singing school back then, though well spotted to find that one!
My point was that most of the famous Music Conservatories were founded in the mid 19th Century, but the lack of them didn't stop the great masters (yes, I meant the Romantic era, mainly) from becoming some of the greatest composers ever, just the same as, training or not, it doesn't stop the great prog bands from doing their thing either.
I think it shows that the classical influence (assuming there is one) doesn't come from the musicians training, it comes from what they hear and are inspired by.
In fact, I would go so far as to say, that the most innovative prog bands do not have the classical training. In my experience (Royal Coll. Music & Trinity Coll. Music) it's a hinderence.
Keith
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 00:45
I love how PA discussions can take a plainly obvious one word answer and stretched it into 4+ pages of hardly related words. 
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 00:51
It makes it even better when the OP doesn't bother to use the search function to find out this topic has probably been done about 20 times olo |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 01:27
Also agree with you Keith
As Peter Gabriel said while placing the sole of his shoe on his ear "Inspiration comes from the soul".
Musical training is only a way for developing skills, the influence comes from what you listened, like and admire and ultimately from inside ourselves.
Just was pointing that there were Conservatories a long time ago, even before the ones I mentioned....Trivia facts
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 03:17
Yes, it's fun reading other opinions, isn't it!
Yes or No is most rewarding
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Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 03:18
Don't you just hate it when we wont let it lie!
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Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 03:23
Yes, I know, I deliberately discounted the Catholic Church!
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 03:50
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Good thread, and so what if its been done a million times before ?. Not all of us have been members for a million years. I just wanted to make my own distinction between influence and inspiration. About 10 years ago I submitted a novel for consideration to various UK Publishing Houses, and although some made some encouraging noises e.g. 'This is good but you need to polish it and identify clearly your target market' etc it was ultimately rejected. However one perceptive editor made the effort to write back to me and stated: You are clearly inspired by the author Martin Amis, it would be better if you converted that to carrying his influence as well. In other words I could imitate Martin Amis's style very well as a pastiche but failed to develop the genre of black humour writers to which he loosely belongs in any significant or unique manner. I think the relationship between prog and classical is very similar to this. With regards training, it is probably true to say that to make a credible contribution to my chosen writing genre, I would have to have studied in some depth other masters in this field both contemporary and historical. Otherwise, just like the prog musos inspired by classical, I would be restricted to taking photos of ghosts. -------------
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Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 05:23
And, of course I'm a newbie, and couldn't possibly have anything worthwhile to add to the debate. The "Seniors" know it all and have said it all?
I did wonder if Deafmoon, who started this topic, deliberately used 'influence' rather than 'inspired'. Maybe Deafmoon will comment?
Nontheless, a worthy analogy, and I do find it hard to listen to those prog musicians that are inspired by classical, especially when they are talented players (no names, as they tend to be everyones heros). I don't have a problem with talented composers, as I wouldn't regard them as very talented if all they did was write inspired music.
But I must add that the modern prog musicain is under a lot of presure to be a virtuoso, genius composer and not to be too influenced, so they still sound enough like an 'old favourite' to make a few sales. Wander off the well trodden prog path and one's liable to get an indifferent reception. Of course this is sadly true of most musical genres. However, with enough persistence, some break through.
Ah, the great Prog Rock or Progressive Rock debate!
Keith
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 08:27
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Hi, I've found the comments here very interesting. To my mind the question would be a similar one to - Did birds influence mechanised flight? Few, if any, Rock Musicians in the era that really formulated a great deal of the music that we love today grew up without listening to the Classics. Classical music, to me, is the only reason that we are able to love Progressive Rock and Progressive music as we do today. Without the Classics we would have had some form of music but nothing like what we know now. Most of the instruments that we love dearly today were honed and improved by and came from those Classical musicians and Composers. I don't believe that being a trained Classical musician and being influenced by the Classic have anything to do with each other. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 08:34
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Also - what I love about Prog Music is it's identity and the fact that the musicians who tend to play Prog tend to be a cut above the Pop world's musicians relating to skill. I really don't want to listen to a bunch of monkeys playing anything. What I revere about the Prog world is its virtuosos. I like listening to a man play who has sweated blood over his instrument to craft his skill into something fantastic - to me that is the basis for the name progressive. I love the Petruccis and the Portnoys of the world because they have put their all into their craft. To me there is no such thing as the term widely used on this site - musical w**kery.
To each his own - I suppose. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Lionheart
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 09:18
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I say yes, classical has an influence on prog. |
Posted By: Lionheart
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 09:18
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I say yes, classical has an influence on prog. |
Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 09:42
I was thinking about writing a post, but then I saw this one. You have said nearly all I wanted to say. Just a few additions: You don’t have to be classically trained to be influenced by classical music. Tony Banks has said that he loves to play Rachmaninoff. Peter Hammill has said that he and VdGG are influenced by modern composers like Ligeti and Messiaen – and all the members of the band are big fans of J. S. Bach. Hugh Banton has even released a recording of the Goldberg Variations. Sorry if this has been said before; I was to lazy to read through all the posts. ------------- He say nothing is quite what it seems; I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 09:48
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I tried and tried but I couldn`t find any classical influences in Guru Guru`s first album UFO.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 03 2009 at 10:26
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The difference between INSPIRATION and INFLUENCE in my opinion is the difference between The Musical Box and lets say Journey to the Centre of the Earth In the Genesis track, you can't listen references to any Baroque, Classical or whatever piece of music, but the structure is clearly Classical, with a defined intro, several parts well defined as Classical Movements and a perfectly structured Coda; all adapted for a few minutes, what defines the touch of a genius. Journey not only uses a Symphony structure, but adds clear references to Late Romantic pieces like In the Hall of the Mountain King from Peer Gynt is clear, this is influence, when they mix clear elements of something pre-existing. This is not criticism, I love both almost equally (As a fact rated both albums with 5 stars), despite my almost fanatic predilection for Genesis, but there's a difference from my perspective. Iván-------------
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 04 2009 at 04:09
Perceptive post certainly. I think what is clear is that influence is a largely unconscious or intuitive phenomenon. As you state, it is clear that Genesis have heard many of the musical structures that make much classical music so satisfying aesthetically. In their composing of the Musical Box they did not sit down in any pre meditated fashion to mimic classical structure. Instead they strove to arrive at a compositional design that provides them with the same aesthetic satisfaction as the aforementioned classical types. It does not matter if Genesis do not know the address of the quarry their materials were sourced from. (Training) What does matter is their (tasteful and subtle) rock sensibilities give this hybrid construction some new foundations and a nifty hoarding/facade. By way of contrast inspiration is a deliberate and knowing reaction to or choice of an identifiable source. This can be deliberately using sonata, fugue, rondo etc form without any significant deviation from the accepted norm as dictated by the past. It strikes me that you would have to study said techniques to some extent just so that you would be able to imitate them ? (Training) You also correctly point out that quotation can be used be it melodic outline, rhythm or harmonic/scale choices etc Short Version: Influence is a construction worker Inspiration is an interior decorator But yes, you are right, one should not be considered better than the other -------------
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Posted By: Quasar
Date Posted: September 04 2009 at 04:54
Whilst I agree with the last bunch of posts, in their perception, for me, originality will always be prefered to mimicry, (sorry Nice and ELP, great players, but you've never cut it for me). If one is going to take a shot at re-working (to be polite) an already great piece of music, one had better have something new to offer, and thrashing around on a Hammond isn't my idea of 'new'.
A virtuoso is not the most technically able, it's someone who uses that ability to do something new, and if one can't compose something new, be gracious enough to work with someone who can.
Keith
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 04 2009 at 11:23
Agree with the central idea, but not in the order.
I believe INSPIRATION is a personal and internal process, you take your own ideas, and also structures, ideas or sounds you heard before and blend them unconciously to create a final product, that's the case of Genesis, Peter and Tony blended their own ideas, followed a Classical structure and without quoting anybody, they released a unique product.
INFLUENCE is voluntary from my perspective, for example Triumvirat is clearly influenced by ELP, they not only took structures, but also a few musical ideas, in the case of Starcasttle is more obvious, they are clearly influenced by YES, they take the style, sound, structure,. musical passages and even voice of the singer.
But we agree in the general idea completely.
Cheers
Iván
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 04 2009 at 11:55
I really think that you make a good point about the individuality that is required to make music and make it creative enough to be noticed ... or it would not happen.
But there is one tangent here that is missed ...
No one in Genesis,
No one in Jethro Tull,
No one in ELP,
No one in Gentle Giant,
No one in the Moody Blues,
In all 5 of these, when I saw them, they were playing classical music as the intro to their shows ... as was Yes and so many other bands.
Training, is not necessarily the requirement and never was and rock music has shown that and has busted the bubble of pomposity surrounding the supposed value of studying and knowing music to that academic level and very few ... and I mean very few rock musicians are ever that knowledgeable but you and I can probably list millions that have given up on school because of their lack of open-ness and discussion.
Of note here btw ... might want to expand your list of folks that knew music ... some of the Canterbury scene folks are actually professors now ... in Germany it was not so much just Holger Czukay ... but many others who also were a part of many things involving the Berlin Conservatory of music ... who had one guest instructor there that went on to influence a lot of modern western music ... Ravi Shankar ...
There is also another school of music more prevalent in France and Germany and is one that I like to say is "visually" inclined and have used and worked with theater/film actors to help develop things in music via acting exercises, and this has a tendency to "stretch the feeling and music" (and take it away from the time/clock constraints) ... and this became known as "krautrock" later ...
There are as many different training avenues as there are people ... and an electric guitar is as good a method as an acting exercise, as a walk down the street ... but it all depends on the person's abilities and what he/she can do or not ... and sometimes there is time for school and sometimes you are 21 years old and going to school at the same time as trying to make it and pay for a child and a car ... is not pheasable ...
Thx |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 04 2009 at 12:07
Hi,
I once heard about a concert at the Hollywood Bowl ... Jean Pierre Rampal and Herbie Flowers ...
... I didn't see it, but a friend of mine had a recording ... and I can tell you one thing ... one knew notes, but he didn't know music or feeling! I can also tell you that the other blew him from here to smithereens ... and I thought that this man needed to go back to music school to learn the most important part of it alll ... how to feel it!
Ohh .. btw .. if I had a chance/choice to see a Rampal or someone like Ian Anderson ... I am almost sure that 95% of us would easily take Ian Anderson ... !!! And I personally think that Ian can do Back and Beethoven a heck of a lot better than Jean-Pierre will ever be able to do My God!
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 04 2009 at 22:31
And Siouxsie & The Banshees used Stravinsky's The Rite Of Spring ... and I've seen several metal and indie bands using O Fortuna a their stroll-on music ... classical music intro's aren't really an indication of anything.
I also believe this is true. Most musicians who learn an orchestral instrument also learn all the fundamentals of music - if a keyboardist had formal piano lessons, or a guitarist formal guitar lessons then they would have been taught some music theory. Self-taught (rock) musicians range from those who have taught themselves enough music theory to get by to those who could take formal examinations in the subject. In recent years modern non-classical music has become an acedemic subject, but 30 years ago it was not - and it is because rock, pop and jazz musicians have burst that bubble that the subject is now taken seriously.
and to name one - Fred Frith is currently a Professor of Composition, and has worked with classical percussionist Evelyn Glennie - he was not formally classically trained. But the list was to show that the number of (classically) trained musicians in Prog is not as numerous as many suppose it is, and nothing more.
The major players in the Prog world did not receive any formal classical music training beyond Grade 8 (in the UK system - I have no idea what the equivalents are in the rest of the world) - these are classified a amateur qualifications by the examining boards (grades 6-8 will count towards entry level into University) - while basic composition is covered in some of these grade theory exams, they are playing grades (that does not mean that the student would be able to compose a sonata or symphony, just they would understand the principles). To achieve these gradings the student will have learnt some classical pieces as a mater of course (it is a major part of the syllabus).
I suspect that these are the certificates Iván referred to Keith Emerson achieving at age eight. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 04 2009 at 22:43
interesting, good nose Dean, and a tidbit of info only available from an Englishman |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 05 2009 at 09:52
Flowers aquired his musical training in the RAF and spent 9 years in the RAF Central Band. He knows "notes" and can sight read music as a result - the "feeling" part came from modern jazz in the early 60s. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: September 05 2009 at 12:28
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I played Guru Guru UFO backwards at 78 RPM and still couldn't hear any classical elements. seriuosly though, I think many of these progrock/artrock bands made classical music more interesting. I' rather hear someone like Jennifer Batten or Al Hirt playing Rimsky Korsakoff's Flight Of The Bumble Bee than say, The Cleveland Symphony. ------------- |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: September 05 2009 at 13:31
| ^that must have been painful........backwards krautrock slowed down, should still give it a couple of stars because that is how we roll |
Posted By: Sacred 22
Date Posted: September 06 2009 at 22:13
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Did classical music influence progressive rock music? That's kinda like asking did the invention of the internal combustion engine influence the automobile.
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