From Progression Magazine
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Topics not related to music
Forum Name: General discussions
Forum Description: Discuss any topic at all that is not music-related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63941
Printed Date: August 15 2025 at 23:20
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Topic: From Progression Magazine
Posted By: Windhawk
Subject: From Progression Magazine
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 11:40
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"Others (sites) (though tempted, I won't name
names) are profit driven enterprises run by .journalistically ignorant computer jockeys, whose notion of
content is glitzy graphics festooning bloated archives of unedited
laymen's opinions". - from the editorial in Progression #58 A shot aimed at our mor or less dear site methinks. It's a good thing that Progression magazine has some competition these days I'd say. Whatever one might feel about letting laymen voice their opinions rather than more or less educated journalists, that one was a cheap shot. Furthermore, with some experience from serious journalism myself I'll have to say that descriptions such as this one is a rather good example of a low quality journalistic analysis - as far as journalistic traditions go much closer to The Sun or Daily Sports than The Time or The Guardian to put it that way. In short - I'm not impressed by such a cheap shot from a person who thinks of himself as a serious journalist. Especially when he, accordiong to some sources of mine, tries to get other to go along to add weight to his personal stance here. What to do about it? I subscribe to Classic Rock's prog mag these days. A tad superficial and glitzy, but a good read. For those who desire more thorough reading catering for artists less known there's also a very good magazine called Acid Dragon. The latter a really affordable publication as well. I'd recommend current Progression subscribers to check out those alternatives. Those who love Progression - of which I know there are quite a few - some letters or emails to the editor complaining about the journalistic lacks of such a cheap comment might come in handy. When that is said: This doesn't mean that I regard this website as perfect by any means. There's quite a lot of positive but also negative points about this website. The same goes for all other websites though. But if you're out to mark your own or others superiority over another publication/website/whatever, good journalistic traditions demands that you point of what's good and not good in a rather more analytical fashion. Then again - the main negative point of this website is that everybody can write reviews. Some are good, some are not. Good ones may be badly written and bad ones may be rather well written. But on the positive side I'd point out the fact that everybody -can- in fact voice their opinion. In the Progression magazine on the other hand, a chosen few gets to voice their opinion. Using a rather elaborate system trying to make subjective opinions come acoss as objective. Personally I find that approach rather shallow, as well as old-fashioned - a system made for the elitist few to tell the masses what's good or not and hiding the subjectivity of the very personal reasoning behind the opinions and ratings. Some prefer it that way though, and it is a highly established way of doing reviews - one which the music business loves and have utilized and used to their advantage since the sale of music to the public on recorded formats became a sustainable business venture. A sidetrack there, but also an example of everything that's lacking in the truly shallow and rather cowardly snide remark in the editorial of the latest Progression magazine. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Replies:
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 11:54
| As a subscriber (and I took out a 2-year subscription, no less) and a reviewer who is both a non-musician and a non-professional journalist, I am definitely going to write to the mag's editor, as I believe Assaf will be doing as well. Sour grapes it may very well be, but such a cheap shot deserves a response nonetheless. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 11:57
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He's just upset because sites like this are making his mag irrelevent. We'll likely be here prospering and adding new members long after he's folded the tent. And frankly, we have many, many people at this site who are every bit as knowledgable as his "experts" are. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 12:00
Sounds good Raff, set him straight!  ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Raff wrote:Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 12:02
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Secterism, it is called when someone tries to split a community by claiming they are the only one worthy carrying the torch. This type of activities was rididuled in Life Of Brian in the scene where the Liberation Front of Judea vs. those other liberation fronts of Judea. Hilarious, but also very true. I am old enough (only slightly younger than a dino) to remember those communists in various Western European countries who divided themselves into various fractions. All of them claimed to be the only "true" just like the editor of Progression magazine. Is it possible to make a progression from Life Of Brian to a community where we all listen to music, discuss it and then each of us review our albums for each other ? I think so. That's why I am here......... although I am off course much, much more "true" than the rest of you peasants in PA.
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Posted By: avestin
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 12:04
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Well written Olav, I am a subscriber and am hurt by these comments; I was surprised to read this unsubstantiated, shallow and in fact cruel criticism which is based on shallow and superficial glance at PA. PA has it's issues, yes, but to write such nonsense, and not checking your facts goes against the high journalistic standard he so highly regards and protests to posses. I will be writing a letter to him about this, like Raff is. ------------- http://hangingsounds.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - Hanging Sounds http://www.progarchives.com/ProgRockShopping.asp" rel="nofollow - PA Index of prog music vendors |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 12:05
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Do we have glitzy graphics? ------------- 
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 12:06
| Music "journalism" snobbery is just so laughable. I'll bet for every album that magazine reviews I can find 5 better reviews on this site. Why "they" think they have some monopoly on describing a piece of music, I don't know. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 12:08
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Yes we do. My avatar. ------------- |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 12:10
Do you count ads of cartoon lesbians or offering you a free ipod/laptop/gold in them thar hills graphics?? ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 12:15
...of course he could be writing about some other user-content driven web archive dedicated to Prog Rock... ------------- What? |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 12:21
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I don't believe I've ever read that magazine. Now I know I never will.
Great idea, piss off the biggest online community on the web in your own niche market. Brilliant. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 12:24
Bingo. I'll laugh when all people in positions like that are irrelevant and nonexistent in a few decades. ------------- 
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 12:28
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I'd be disappointed. I think that Progression Magazine is an excellent source for everything progressive rock. It is the only magazine where I absolutely enjoy reading all of the ads. I love the interviews of both prominent and unknown prog musicians. I take their reviews with a grain of salt, but I do the same with the reviews here on PA. -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 15:09
I have to say I agree with Scott - even if I didn't like the guy's remarks a little bit. I believe there should be room for both of us - PA and Progression - as well for any other website dedicated to progressive rock in all its forms, and liking one should not mean disliking the other. Unfortunately, it seems that some people go for a 'gang-war' mentality (loved that definition, Doc  !), and the good old adage, "either you're with me, or you're against me". A sign of the times, I'm afraid. |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 15:30
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"< ="utf-8">"Others (sites) (though tempted, I won't name names) are profit driven enterprises run by .journalistically ignorant computer jockeys, whose notion of content is glitzy graphics festooning bloated archives of unedited laymen's opinions"." Truth kinda smarts when you put it that way, but I LIKE it this way. It makes it more fun.
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 15:42
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As someone already mentioned, journalistic training is over-rated, especially in terms of musical taste. I'm not the best writer, but it doesn't take extra schooling to write a good review. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 17:10
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ehhh... needless to say I didn't take this kindly when I read it and made my displeasure pretty clear... probably too clear in Micky-style. Probably not on this guys X-mas card list. Coming from one who profits from sales of a magazine ... is not the owner here entitled to profit for providing a service to fans of prog. The owner here has on occasion made the mistake of putting commerical concerns over the purity of the site. This yeahoo sure didn't know that and probably few non-collabs know that story... however the owner recognized his mistake and made sure that didn't happen again. the owner aside.. what I obviously took exception to was the napalming of the people here.. .sure some of the reviews are sh*tty.. not well written... or just attempts to manipulate ratings. However there are many great reviewers and reviews here. The members here in large are a younger sort here.... but as a wise- man once said... 'I'd rather spend time with a friendly young progger than an a****le... no matter who he is.. or how much he knows' sure the site has a lot of weaknesses... but it has a lot of strengths that more than make up for it. Number one are ... in addition to fresh young faces wanting to learn about prog.. we have some of the most knowledgeable.. and friendly people I've ever met. bahh.... it is sh*t like this... that really turns me off of being a 'prog fan' It isn't enough to just like the music... some people take that as license to piss on what they perceive to be things lesser. Be it other forms of music... or worse... other fans of prog. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 17:34
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How fitting today's banner ad is - on top of this page I read "Journalism is Dead". Great timing ;-) ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 20:30
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hah..... it should have read 'traditional (print) journalism is dying' ..
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 20:42
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Yes because having only one opinion from a obviously self-imporntant critic is such a better option.
Never ever look at the star values. Read how the person describes the music and its impression on them. It's the only thing that can lead you to music you like. Reviews like those at Pitchfork are usually unhelpful English majors jerking of in Microsoft Word. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 23:12
I do admit, however, that I put more weight on a review from AMG or something than I do from a random person on Amazon on here, but music journalists put far too much weight on editors and crap for something as subjective as musical taste. And besides the ones here that are just incoherent, usually reviews on Pitchfork or Rolling Stone are much more poorly written than ones here because they're trying too hard. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 23:34
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Those who brag about being able to write music reviews better than others just because they are trained in either music or journalism are really bragging about the ultimate jerk-off.
If you're such a great journalist go write about something that matters. Music is enjoyed by each person differently and I'd rather read a honest review of a layman than a pompous rant with no heart. There are good reviews and bad reviews both here and in that magazine. Writing about music, at least about this kind of music doesn't require a PhD in music or a MD in journalism but just a set of ears, a working brain and a pumping heart. ------------- 
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 23:54
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I prepare for the stones now...
Personally I'll still read/subscribe to progression. I find it a much more valuable resource in terms of the other things than reviews that it offers, namely the interviews with artists (and the CDs back when they came with them that is...). I really only use the reviews as a way to find out certain albums exist. As someone else said, every topic/niche/subject has its blowhards. Sticks and stones and all that...
Also, perhaps this is irrelevent but, wasn't there a thread in the get the word out section or somewhere where someone tried to plug Progression (someone I assumed associated with the mag based on what/how they were saying/they said it) and it was jumped upon as being spam? Mayve I'm making this incident up though.
Nevertheless I do find it an odd thing to complain about. I should probably go read the editorial to put it in context. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: December 31 2009 at 00:44
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No stones from me in that respect. They have reasonable good interviews and articles in Progression. Which is why an editorial attacking the issues mentioned here briefly is so sad to see. In all fairness other parts of the editorial do touch upon subjects of a less controversial nature, but the plug against websites, done in the manner as quoted, wasn't worthy of a magazine with an aim to follow good, old-fashioned journalism. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 31 2009 at 05:46
No stones at all from me, Dan. I subscribed to Progression during the last edition of NEARfest, and this is the second issue I've received - which means I'll get another six before my subscription expires, and I fully intend reading each of them from cover to cover, as I usually do. Indeed, I like the way they cover different genres from 'conventional' prog (just like Progressor, the site Olav and I write for, does), something that does not happen here in spite of the loud complaints about PA's inclusiveness. I also enjoy their features and interviews, and find it a really worthwhile publication for people who are into progressive music. However, I have no problem in saying that I took at least one of the points in that editorial personally - the one about reviews. As others have pointed out in previous posts, you don't need to be a musician or a journalist to write a good review - as quite a few people here and elsewhere prove quite well. |