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A Dramatic Turn Of Events vs. Clockwork Angels
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Poll Question: which album do you prefer?
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Sacro_Porgo View Drop Down
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    Posted: October 19 2021 at 12:50
Released in consecutive years, both kind of "return to form" albums for their respective bands, though one marks a new beginning and the other marks the end. Which do you prefer?
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they both mark the end ;p
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Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Released in consecutive years, both kind of "return to form" albums for their respective bands, though one marks a new beginning and the other marks the end. Which do you prefer?

For Rush, their "return to form" came two albums earlier, with Vapor Trails.

My vote goes to Rush, anyway...
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I guess Rush but pretty much a pass all around. 
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I don’t know anyone who considers “Clockwork Angels” a return to form, though I guess you are one such, since that’s what you wrote. Most people who listen to Rush would point to their return to form as having occurred at least one or two albums prior.

The funny thing is that ADToE was definitely a return to form for me (probably top five), but it was short lived, as I found the following, eponymous, album incredibly disappointing, and it’s easily one of my least favourite DT albums. I do very much like The Astonishing, though - so I guess the self-titled album was just a misstep…. 
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Rush I guess. 
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I don’t know anyone who considers “Clockwork Angels” a return to form, though I guess you are one such, since that’s what you wrote. Most people who listen to Rush would point to their return to form as having occurred at least one or two albums prior.

The funny thing is that ADToE was definitely a return to form for me (probably top five), but it was short lived, as I found the following, eponymous, album incredibly disappointing, and it’s easily one of my least favourite DT albums. I do very much like The Astonishing, though - so I guess the self-titled album was just a misstep…. 


Over on The Rush Forum, Clockwork Angels is often considered a return to form after the kind of uninspired, boring blues rock of Snakes And Arrows and the compressed-to-all-heck modern rock of Vapor Trails. Not that those albums are totally despised, but CA is generally more well regarded than anything since Power Windows. At the very least, it's considered a return to their prog heyday, as a concept album with multiple 6 and 7+ minute mini epics.
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I guess DT, but neither of these albums clicked with me.
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Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

I guess Rush but pretty much a pass all around. 
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Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I don’t know anyone who considers “Clockwork Angels” a return to form, though I guess you are one such, since that’s what you wrote. Most people who listen to Rush would point to their return to form as having occurred at least one or two albums prior.

The funny thing is that ADToE was definitely a return to form for me (probably top five), but it was short lived, as I found the following, eponymous, album incredibly disappointing, and it’s easily one of my least favourite DT albums. I do very much like The Astonishing, though - so I guess the self-titled album was just a misstep…. 


Over on The Rush Forum, Clockwork Angels is often considered a return to form after the kind of uninspired, boring blues rock of Snakes And Arrows and the compressed-to-all-heck modern rock of Vapor Trails. Not that those albums are totally despised, but CA is generally more well regarded than anything since Power Windows. At the very least, it's considered a return to their prog heyday, as a concept album with multiple 6 and 7+ minute mini epics.

IMO, the writing on VT is better than S&A and CA. Not one throwaway. Songs like "Freeze" and "Earthshine" hark back to GUP and PoW better than anything on the next two albums.

So what happens if they discuss the remixed Vapor Trails? Then does it get the accolades? Big smile
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I don’t know anyone who considers “Clockwork Angels” a return to form, though I guess you are one such, since that’s what you wrote. Most people who listen to Rush would point to their return to form as having occurred at least one or two albums prior.

The funny thing is that ADToE was definitely a return to form for me (probably top five), but it was short lived, as I found the following, eponymous, album incredibly disappointing, and it’s easily one of my least favourite DT albums. I do very much like The Astonishing, though - so I guess the self-titled album was just a misstep…. 


Exactly my sentiments as well, with the exception of the fact that I didn't like The Astonishing. To me, that was the only true dud in DT's discog
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Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I don’t know anyone who considers “Clockwork Angels” a return to form, though I guess you are one such, since that’s what you wrote. Most people who listen to Rush would point to their return to form as having occurred at least one or two albums prior.

The funny thing is that ADToE was definitely a return to form for me (probably top five), but it was short lived, as I found the following, eponymous, album incredibly disappointing, and it’s easily one of my least favourite DT albums. I do very much like The Astonishing, though - so I guess the self-titled album was just a misstep…. 


Over on The Rush Forum, Clockwork Angels is often considered a return to form after the kind of uninspired, boring blues rock of Snakes And Arrows and the compressed-to-all-heck modern rock of Vapor Trails. Not that those albums are totally despised, but CA is generally more well regarded than anything since Power Windows. At the very least, it's considered a return to their prog heyday, as a concept album with multiple 6 and 7+ minute mini epics.

IMO, the writing on VT is better than S&A and CA. Not one throwaway. Songs like "Freeze" and "Earthshine" hark back to GUP and PoW better than anything on the next two albums.

So what happens if they discuss the remixed Vapor Trails? Then does it get the accolades? Big smile

Remixed VT is generally preferred over there, but still doesn't have the reputation of CA. To be fair, VT is generally considered far better than Roll The Bones, Presto, and Test For Echo regardless of the mix. So in the sense that the 90s were pretty hit or miss for Rush, and in the sense that they literally came back from a nearly career-ending hiatus to make it, VT is a great comeback for the band. It's just that CA goes further to return to the glory of their golden years in its scope and execution.

EDIT: I should also add that, while the synth era (roughly Signals through Hold Your Fire) is loved by many, the general consensus over there (and most places I find) is that Rush's golden period was from 2112 through Moving Pictures, give or take Signals since it still had Terry Brown on production duties.  It's that era of more direct influence from British prog like Yes and Genesis which Clockwork Angels recalls better than anything since Moving Pictures itself. And that's why the album is so well regarded and considered a return to form.


Edited by Sacro_Porgo - October 19 2021 at 22:29
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Voted for Clockwork Angels because I remember that album better, but for once I miss the 'Both' option.

CA was a return to form indeed.
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Dream Theatre - A Dramatic Turn Of Events is a solid DT album , my vote Rush only ok
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I vote for DT here, although for me their previous album is far better - Black Clouds And Silver Linings. This was a return to form after the very disappointing Systematic Chaos...

I bought Clockwork Angels because I heard so many positive comments, but was very disappointed. I think there was one song about a garden that may have been ok? It's up there with CTTE as albums that do nothing for me despite trying hard with them....
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I prefer both (the remixed) Vapour Trails and Snakes and Arrows to Clockwork Angels. I’ve always wondered if it would be looked on somfondly and be so acclaimed if it hadn’t been the final album. Everyone knew that was what it was, and it kind of imbued a special affection because of that. I’m not saying it’s a bad album by any means. But I do think it’s status is elevated somewhat by virtue of how it came to be.

I would also think that the views of a Rush forum might be quite different from those who are not. I don’t know any Rush superfans, or even any who are enough of a fan to be a member of a forum or group dedicated solely to Rush. So from my point of view, I have never encountered anyone (until now) who has considered Clockwork Angels a return to form, and from other comments here, I guess I am not alone in having that (anecdotal) experience.

There is no right or wrong answer, of course. Everyone likely has a different idea of when Rush lost form, and when they returned to form - and obviously there will be some who insist Rush never returned to form, because they never lost it (or, conversely, because they never had it).

The same goes for ADToE for DT. This was certainly a return to form for me, but for some fans it is where the band completely lost the plot, and it is apparently unlistenable. We all hear and experience different things. So I’m definitely not having a go at anyone who has a differing opinion, so much as expressing my surprise as (until now) I’d never realised anyone considered Clockwork Angels a return to form!
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I prefer both (the remixed) Vapour Trails and Snakes and Arrows to Clockwork Angels. I’ve always wondered if it would be looked on somfondly and be so acclaimed if it hadn’t been the final album. Everyone knew that was what it was, and it kind of imbued a special affection because of that. I’m not saying it’s a bad album by any means. But I do think it’s status is elevated somewhat by virtue of how it came to be.

I would also think that the views of a Rush forum might be quite different from those who are not. I don’t know any Rush superfans, or even any who are enough of a fan to be a member of a forum or group dedicated solely to Rush. So from my point of view, I have never encountered anyone (until now) who has considered Clockwork Angels a return to form, and from other comments here, I guess I am not alone in having that (anecdotal) experience.

There is no right or wrong answer, of course. Everyone likely has a different idea of when Rush lost form, and when they returned to form - and obviously there will be some who insist Rush never returned to form, because they never lost it (or, conversely, because they never had it).

The same goes for ADToE for DT. This was certainly a return to form for me, but for some fans it is where the band completely lost the plot, and it is apparently unlistenable. We all hear and experience different things. So I’m definitely not having a go at anyone who has a differing opinion, so much as expressing my surprise as (until now) I’d never realised anyone considered Clockwork Angels a return to form!


Fair enough. To me it's the idea that CA wasn't a return to form that's surprising.  It's all I remember hearing about when it came out, and even progarchives has it rated as the best Rush album since Signals. But as you said, we all hear things differently. I was expecting more pushback from calling ADTOE a return to form, as a lot of people were very upset when Portnoy left. I justify that one more by the fact that it kind of feels like Images And Words 2 in places than it necessarily being better than what came before.
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Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I prefer both (the remixed) Vapour Trails and Snakes and Arrows to Clockwork Angels. I’ve always wondered if it would be looked on somfondly and be so acclaimed if it hadn’t been the final album. Everyone knew that was what it was, and it kind of imbued a special affection because of that. I’m not saying it’s a bad album by any means. But I do think it’s status is elevated somewhat by virtue of how it came to be.

I would also think that the views of a Rush forum might be quite different from those who are not. I don’t know any Rush superfans, or even any who are enough of a fan to be a member of a forum or group dedicated solely to Rush. So from my point of view, I have never encountered anyone (until now) who has considered Clockwork Angels a return to form, and from other comments here, I guess I am not alone in having that (anecdotal) experience.

There is no right or wrong answer, of course. Everyone likely has a different idea of when Rush lost form, and when they returned to form - and obviously there will be some who insist Rush never returned to form, because they never lost it (or, conversely, because they never had it).

The same goes for ADToE for DT. This was certainly a return to form for me, but for some fans it is where the band completely lost the plot, and it is apparently unlistenable. We all hear and experience different things. So I’m definitely not having a go at anyone who has a differing opinion, so much as expressing my surprise as (until now) I’d never realised anyone considered Clockwork Angels a return to form!

Fair enough. To me it's the idea that CA wasn't a return to form that's surprising.  It's all I remember hearing about when it came out, and even progarchives has it rated as the best Rush album since Signals. But as you said, we all hear things differently. I was expecting more pushback from calling ADTOE a return to form, as a lot of people were very upset when Portnoy left. I justify that one more by the fact that it kind of feels like Images And Words 2 in places than it necessarily being better than what came before.

In no dimension, no time and space, is Clockwork Angels better than Grace Under Pressure. Shocked

I know quite a few people who love the "synth era" and rate Signals and P/G as their best albums (even over Moving Pictures).
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Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I prefer both (the remixed) Vapour Trails and Snakes and Arrows to Clockwork Angels. I’ve always wondered if it would be looked on somfondly and be so acclaimed if it hadn’t been the final album. Everyone knew that was what it was, and it kind of imbued a special affection because of that. I’m not saying it’s a bad album by any means. But I do think it’s status is elevated somewhat by virtue of how it came to be.

I would also think that the views of a Rush forum might be quite different from those who are not. I don’t know any Rush superfans, or even any who are enough of a fan to be a member of a forum or group dedicated solely to Rush. So from my point of view, I have never encountered anyone (until now) who has considered Clockwork Angels a return to form, and from other comments here, I guess I am not alone in having that (anecdotal) experience.

There is no right or wrong answer, of course. Everyone likely has a different idea of when Rush lost form, and when they returned to form - and obviously there will be some who insist Rush never returned to form, because they never lost it (or, conversely, because they never had it).

The same goes for ADToE for DT. This was certainly a return to form for me, but for some fans it is where the band completely lost the plot, and it is apparently unlistenable. We all hear and experience different things. So I’m definitely not having a go at anyone who has a differing opinion, so much as expressing my surprise as (until now) I’d never realised anyone considered Clockwork Angels a return to form!

Fair enough. To me it's the idea that CA wasn't a return to form that's surprising.  It's all I remember hearing about when it came out, and even progarchives has it rated as the best Rush album since Signals. But as you said, we all hear things differently. I was expecting more pushback from calling ADTOE a return to form, as a lot of people were very upset when Portnoy left. I justify that one more by the fact that it kind of feels like Images And Words 2 in places than it necessarily being better than what came before.

In no dimension, no time and space, is Clockwork Angels better than Grace Under Pressure. Shocked

I know quite a few people who love the "synth era" and rate Signals and P/G as their best albums (even over Moving Pictures).


To me it's Power Windows that CA doesn't quite pass. I'm a synth era fan, but GuP has always left me a little colder than the two around it. All three rank over HYF for me though. Signals is my favorite of these, and it just misses my top three: 1. A Farewell To Kings, 2. Permanent Waves, 3. Moving Pictures.

Anyway it's all better than Roll The Bones!
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I don't see how ADToE is a return to form? Portnoy is gone, so that starts a new form not a return....If Portnoy comes back eventually, then you might designate that album a return to form.

Does not matter, Rush.

And I have ALWAYS been a massive fan of VT, that is the return to form album of the prog rock power trio, guitar, bass, drums.
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