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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32592 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2011 at 16:55
Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

The lack of Gun Laws clearly acts as an enabler for cases like this. He probably did steal it from his parents. Or get someone to buy it for him which as it is would have been no more difficult than getting Cigarettes or Alcohol under age.


I'm puzzled as well.  Blaming the lack of gun restrictions seems odd to me when what you should be condemning is an individual's actions, not a government's lack of action (since the latter can never control the former anyway, as you yourself have just pointed out).
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Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-13110039

American gun law strikes again.

No, stupidity of parents, friends, and specially stupidity and evil of the shooter strike again. 

Under your line of thought, nobody should ever take drugs because they're illegal, right? Yet so many people do! How bizarre! Let's make guns illegal and none will ever die by a gun... except all those who face criminals who obtain guns anyway. 

The UK must be the perfect society I guess... 

Nope but the U.K has about a tenth of the shooting stories that come out of America. Of course murder will always be a problem in any society but having more weapons available to the public makes stories like this much more numerous 
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LOL, please keep this to the libertarian thread folks.

EDIT: wait, I thought this is the Shred LOL


Edited by harmonium.ro - April 18 2011 at 17:01
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Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

The lack of Gun Laws clearly acts as an enabler for cases like this. He probably did steal it from his parents. Or get someone to buy it for him which as it is would have been no more difficult than getting Cigarettes or Alcohol under age.


I'm puzzled as well.  Blaming the lack of gun restrictions seems odd to me when what you should be condemning is an individual's actions, not a government's lack of action (since the latter can never control the former anyway, as you yourself have just pointed out).

Of course the kid is the main part of this story. But with guns readily available to any U.S citizen can anybody really claim that it doesn't enable and make stories like this more likely and numerous?
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32592 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2011 at 17:06
Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

The lack of Gun Laws clearly acts as an enabler for cases like this. He probably did steal it from his parents. Or get someone to buy it for him which as it is would have been no more difficult than getting Cigarettes or Alcohol under age.


I'm puzzled as well.  Blaming the lack of gun restrictions seems odd to me when what you should be condemning is an individual's actions, not a government's lack of action (since the latter can never control the former anyway, as you yourself have just pointed out).

Of course the kid is the main part of this story. But with guns readily available to any U.S citizen can anybody really claim that it doesn't enable and make stories like this more likely and numerous?


I don't think you were around when we had this discussion about gun laws.

Washington DC had a strict gun ban.  Homicides skyrocketed.

Chicago tried it too.  Same result.

During the discussion about gun control, I brought up Switzerland, which has unusual gun laws.  Pretty much everyone carries a weapon there, yet crime rates are much lower.  Hmm.
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The T View Drop Down
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Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-13110039

American gun law strikes again.

No, stupidity of parents, friends, and specially stupidity and evil of the shooter strike again. 

Under your line of thought, nobody should ever take drugs because they're illegal, right? Yet so many people do! How bizarre! Let's make guns illegal and none will ever die by a gun... except all those who face criminals who obtain guns anyway. 

The UK must be the perfect society I guess... 

Nope but the U.K has about a tenth of the shooting stories that come out of America. Of course murder will always be a problem in any society but having more weapons available to the public makes stories like this much more numerous 

The UK is about a tenth of the US
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The reason gun violence is so low in the United Kingdom is because firearms in general aren't as well established in your society as they are here.  London police don't even carry firearms for chrissake.
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Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

The lack of Gun Laws clearly acts as an enabler for cases like this. He probably did steal it from his parents. Or get someone to buy it for him which as it is would have been no more difficult than getting Cigarettes or Alcohol under age.


I'm puzzled as well.  Blaming the lack of gun restrictions seems odd to me when what you should be condemning is an individual's actions, not a government's lack of action (since the latter can never control the former anyway, as you yourself have just pointed out).

Of course the kid is the main part of this story. But with guns readily available to any U.S citizen can anybody really claim that it doesn't enable and make stories like this more likely and numerous?


I don't think you were around when we had this discussion about gun laws.

Washington DC had a strict gun ban.  Homicides skyrocketed.

Chicago tried it too.  Same result.

During the discussion about gun control, I brought up Switzerland, which has unusual gun laws.  Pretty much everyone carries a weapon there, yet crime rates are much lower.  Hmm.

Definitely interesting examples and they do show admittedly that gun control can work counteractively and firearm freedom can work well. 

However I am still unconvinced and hold up the argument that in the U.S there are lots of stories that could be easily prevented with more regulations on firearms. School shoot-up and rampage story are numerous and show that the freedom to arms works very negatively.
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2011 at 17:26
Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

  School shoot-up and rampage story are numerous and show that the freedom to arms works very negatively.

Actually that's not so accurate and it proves your argument wrong. Minors are not allowed to buy guns in most (or all?) states, yet the school shootings occur. Why, oh why? Oh wait maybe is not that there is no regulation after all... 
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Points: 32592 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2011 at 17:28
Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

The lack of Gun Laws clearly acts as an enabler for cases like this. He probably did steal it from his parents. Or get someone to buy it for him which as it is would have been no more difficult than getting Cigarettes or Alcohol under age.


I'm puzzled as well.  Blaming the lack of gun restrictions seems odd to me when what you should be condemning is an individual's actions, not a government's lack of action (since the latter can never control the former anyway, as you yourself have just pointed out).

Of course the kid is the main part of this story. But with guns readily available to any U.S citizen can anybody really claim that it doesn't enable and make stories like this more likely and numerous?


I don't think you were around when we had this discussion about gun laws.

Washington DC had a strict gun ban.  Homicides skyrocketed.

Chicago tried it too.  Same result.

During the discussion about gun control, I brought up Switzerland, which has unusual gun laws.  Pretty much everyone carries a weapon there, yet crime rates are much lower.  Hmm.

Definitely interesting examples and they do show admittedly that gun control can work counteractively and firearm freedom can work well. 

However I am still unconvinced and hold up the argument that in the U.S there are lots of stories that could be easily prevented with more regulations on firearms. School shoot-up and rampage story are numerous and show that the freedom to arms works very negatively.


Let's look at one example you named:

School shootings.

We already have laws that say:

1) You cannot buy a gun until you are 18 (and then, it is only a rifle, not a handgun, for which you must be 21).

2) You cannot bring a gun on campus.

That's two laws right there that show it is illegal to shoot up a school.  Yet we have school shootings anyway.

In my opinion, these laws are work against innocent people.  If every teacher in a school were armed and trained in the use of a firearm, how many kids would attempt to open fire in their schools?  If one tried, how far do you think he'd get?
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Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

  School shoot-up and rampage story are numerous and show that the freedom to arms works very negatively.

Actually that's not so accurate and it proves your argument wrong. Minors are not allowed to buy guns in most (or all?) states, yet the school shootings occur. Why, oh why? Oh wait maybe is not that there is no regulation after all... 

The only state which permits the purchase of any long arms under the age of 18 is Vermont, where the legal age to own a rifle or shotgun is 16.  You still have to be at least 21 years old and are required a 5-day background check before being eligible to purchase a handgun in all states.
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We've also said this countless times before, but if people want to acquire a gun for criminal purposes, they would most likely be able to acquire one regardless of legality.  Stricter gun laws only make it more difficult for us law-abiding citizens to own one, or in my case, to use one for recreation and competition.

Edited by NecronCommander - April 18 2011 at 17:32
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Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

  School shoot-up and rampage story are numerous and show that the freedom to arms works very negatively.

Actually that's not so accurate and it proves your argument wrong. Minors are not allowed to buy guns in most (or all?) states, yet the school shootings occur. Why, oh why? Oh wait maybe is not that there is no regulation after all... 
Being underage for something makes it still very acquirable. There is a major difference between finding and buying an illegal product and getting something you aren't of age for. Underage people manage to buy Cigarettes and alcohol very easily and it would be exactly the same for guns.
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Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

  School shoot-up and rampage story are numerous and show that the freedom to arms works very negatively.

Actually that's not so accurate and it proves your argument wrong. Minors are not allowed to buy guns in most (or all?) states, yet the school shootings occur. Why, oh why? Oh wait maybe is not that there is no regulation after all... 
 
No it doesn't prove his argument wrong. Tosh! If you allow all adults to carry arms then it is much easier for youngsters to get hold of a gun whether they can buy guns or not
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If you want to put the whole USA, Switzerland, rest of the world thing into perspective:
What that graph doesn't show is the high figures for Switzerland, FInland and France are predominately suicide, whereas the USA is mix of suicide and homicide and the homicide per 100,000 people for the USA are between 20 and 200 times higher than any other country on the graph. (for example intentional gun related homicide is 132 times higher in the USA than in the UK ... not 5 times)


Edited by Dean - April 18 2011 at 17:37
What?
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Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

  School shoot-up and rampage story are numerous and show that the freedom to arms works very negatively.

Actually that's not so accurate and it proves your argument wrong. Minors are not allowed to buy guns in most (or all?) states, yet the school shootings occur. Why, oh why? Oh wait maybe is not that there is no regulation after all... 
Being underage for something makes it still very acquirable. There is a major difference between finding and buying an illegal product and getting something you aren't of age for. Underage people manage to buy Cigarettes and alcohol very easily and it would be exactly the same for guns.

Underage people find drugs very easily even though (most) parents don't keep a stash of crack at home... 
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Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

  School shoot-up and rampage story are numerous and show that the freedom to arms works very negatively.

Actually that's not so accurate and it proves your argument wrong. Minors are not allowed to buy guns in most (or all?) states, yet the school shootings occur. Why, oh why? Oh wait maybe is not that there is no regulation after all... 
 
No it doesn't prove his argument wrong. Tosh! If you allow all adults to carry arms then it is much easier for youngsters to get hold of a gun whether they can buy guns or not

It does. There is a law. But it's not effective. That's all I'm saying. Like most prohibitive laws. 
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Maybe we're just bad shots?
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Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by topographicbroadways topographicbroadways wrote:

  School shoot-up and rampage story are numerous and show that the freedom to arms works very negatively.

Actually that's not so accurate and it proves your argument wrong. Minors are not allowed to buy guns in most (or all?) states, yet the school shootings occur. Why, oh why? Oh wait maybe is not that there is no regulation after all... 
Being underage for something makes it still very acquirable. There is a major difference between finding and buying an illegal product and getting something you aren't of age for. Underage people manage to buy Cigarettes and alcohol very easily and it would be exactly the same for guns.

Underage people find drugs very easily even though (most) parents don't keep a stash of crack at home... 

The illegal markets of drugs and firearms aren't really comparable. The mass demand for drugs is much higher than for firearms. 
Of course there would still be a black market for guns as there is in every country but a monitored firearms law would make shooting cases much less numerous. 
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Maybe the reason you Brits have such a low gun crime rate is because you guys seem so purportedly anti-firearms.
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