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poslednijat_colobar
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 31 2008
Location: Bulgaria
Status: Offline
Points: 394
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Posted: November 25 2008 at 05:21 |
Load is everything else,but prog rock!
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trackstoni
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 23 2008
Location: Lebanon
Status: Offline
Points: 934
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Posted: November 25 2008 at 12:02 |
None of these albums are progressive , except for the first 4 albums . Heavy Metal Rock by all means , with SOME inclination to Progressive in some Songs , specially for the Black Album and Master of Puppets , and maybe Ride the Lightning //////
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Tracking Tracks of Rock
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: November 26 2008 at 15:17 |
trackstoni wrote:
None of these albums are progressive , except for the first 4 albums . Heavy Metal Rock by all means , with SOME inclination to Progressive in some Songs , specially for the Black Album and Master of Puppets , and maybe Ride the Lightning //////
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No, there's lots of actual Progessive Rock on the first 4 albums.
It's Progressive METAL - how hard is that to understand?
There's almost nothing progressive on the Black Album - just ballads, Nu-Metal and some thrash. The Black Album just sounds better than previous albums because of Bob Rock's shiny metallic production. The songs are much less progressive as a rule than Kill 'Em All.
Ride the Lightning is probably the first Progessive Metal album proper, with MoP being the absolute benchmark and pinnacle of Progressive Metal composition - but KEA has moments of PROG, a la King Crimson.
Edited by Certif1ed - November 26 2008 at 15:21
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: November 26 2008 at 15:24 |
Certif1ed wrote:
trackstoni wrote:
None of these albums are progressive , except for the first 4 albums . Heavy Metal Rock by all means , with SOME inclination to Progressive in some Songs , specially for the Black Album and Master of Puppets , and maybe Ride the Lightning //////
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No, there's lots of actual Progessive Rock on the first 4 albums.
It's Progressive METAL - how hard is that to understand?
There's almost nothing progressive on the Black Album - just ballads, Nu-Metal and some thrash. The Black Album just sounds better than previous albums because of Bob Rock's shiny metallic production. The songs are much less progressive as a rule than Kill 'Em All.
Ride the Lightning is probably the first Progessive Metal album proper, with MoP being the absolute benchmark and pinnacle of Progressive Metal composition - but KEA has moments of PROG, a la King Crimson. |
If you mean that Kill 'Em All is progressive in the sense that it far exceeded anything that was heard in metal at the time, then yes, you're right. Otherwise I agree with you 100%.  Also, I'd like to thank the person who resurrected this thread. It gave me a few laughs going back and reading some of the things some people had posted. 
Edited by birdwithteeth11 - November 26 2008 at 15:26
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obiter
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 05 2006
Location: Donaghadee
Status: Offline
Points: 116
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Posted: November 26 2008 at 22:23 |
So is any band that does anything new or different progressive?
I suppose Norwegian Death Metal also progressed Metal but does that make it "progressive". If so, then Kill Em All and Master of Puppets qualify.
oh whoops my head just disappeared up my own backside. i never knew my navel looked like that (from the inside).
There's a voice in my head saying "just vote and run away":
OK I voted: I don't reckon any are progressive
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An té nach mbíonn láidir ní folláir dó bheith glic
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 00:22 |
seems like this band, above any other, needs to be eliminated from this website
sticks out like a sore thumb, why not add all metal bands then, or every single rock band for that matter
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 Time always wins.
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BroSpence
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 05 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2614
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 00:31 |
St. Anger is the least proggy. They tried hard to ditch their influences with that one. Bad riffs, and uninteresting song structures. Their lyrics focused much more on personal problems than outside political/societal issues. Although to be fair, that is where they were at the time, and needed to get through.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 03:29 |
obiter wrote:
So is any band that does anything new or different progressive?
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Not necessarily.
obiter wrote:
I suppose Norwegian Death Metal also progressed Metal but does that make it "progressive". If so, then Kill Em All and Master of Puppets qualify.
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I think there are plenty of Death Metal bands here - Death, for example.
The reasoning that if a subgenre of Metal progressed the Metal genre, then that subgenre is progressive is fatally flawed: Progressive music is easily identifiable in that it is inherently progressive. How that identification is made is much trickier, and is usually decided on a per-band basis, not a per subgenre basis.
Kill 'Em All "qualifies" for many, many reasons.
Master of Puppets is a Bona Fide Prog metal album, superior in many ways to Prog metal albums that followed it - most importantly in that it is one of the very few Progressive Metal albums that actually contains complex compositions instead of mere complicated ones.
Not only are both distinctly (one might say completely) different to everything that preceeded them in a very large number of ways, they also contain plainly identifiable elements of Progressive Rock music, including what is, to me, the most important feature - that the music itself is inherently Progressive, not a simple literal progression from what went before - although there is a case for MoP being a simple progression of RtL.
obiter wrote:
oh whoops my head just disappeared up my own backside. i never knew my navel looked like that (from the inside).
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That's quite a feat 
obiter wrote:
OK I voted: I don't reckon any are progressive
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The evidence says otherwise 
manofmystery wrote:
seems like this band, above any other, needs to be eliminated from this website
sticks out like a sore thumb, why not add all metal bands then, or every single rock band for that matter |
Apart from the fact that this is almost completely incoherent - assuming you're a native English speaker (if not, I apologise) - your reasoning here is non-existent and plain rude to all the people who think that Metallica should be here.
The reason that not all metal bands are added is because not all metal bands are progressive. Metallica WERE, just like Genesis WERE.
Edited by Certif1ed - November 27 2008 at 03:34
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 03:45 |
obiter wrote:
So is any band that does anything new or different progressive?
I suppose Norwegian Death Metal also progressed Metal but does that make it "progressive". If so, then Kill Em All and Master of Puppets qualify.
oh whoops my head just disappeared up my own backside. i never knew my navel looked like that (from the inside).
There's a voice in my head saying "just vote and run away":
OK I voted: I don't reckon any are progressive
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manofmystery wrote:
seems like this band, above any other, needs to be eliminated from this website
sticks out like a sore thumb, why not add all metal bands then, or every single rock band for that matter |
I am safe to assume you guys need to be directed to some background reading? i.e previous threads on the matter
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 10:14 |
Stool Man wrote:
The only album I've heard is Master of Puppets, but after I saw them live last month somebody (a huge Metallica fan, not a prog fan) recommended St Anger as the place to start for listening to the rest. |
This Metallica fan must be tone deaf. If you really like Master of Puppets, listen to Ride the Lightning, Death Magnetic, ...And Justice For All, or Kill 'Em All next.
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 10:19 |
manofmystery wrote:
seems like this band, above any other, needs to be eliminated from this website
sticks out like a sore thumb, why not add all metal bands then, or every single rock band for that matter |
We don't add all metal bands because not all of them helped build prog metal like Metallica did. Their first 4 albums and their newest one have all been complex, and had longer compisitions. Most prog metal bands (Ex. Dream Theater) have named Metallica one of their favorite bands. Without a doubt in my mind Metallica belongs here. They're not quite prog metal, but they have had such an infuence on the genre that they deserve a place in the prog related section.
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 10:28 |
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: November 27 2008 at 18:30 |
The prog metal category has to be cut up into 7 different descriptions and my ears have me placing more importance in the word metal than prog for any of the bands within that i've heard, and basically all I've said there is that I don't care for metal even if its labelled "prog" but that's my problem. That doesn't now mean that I believe former metal gods Metallica should be included on this site based on a few complex songs and the fact someone claims them as an influence. If there was a Prog Influences category then fine but hypothetically say the Dixie Dregs were influenced by, say, the Allman Brothers Band and say that said Allman Brothers had a few somewhat complex songs of there own then maybe.....see where we are here. Now I like the Allman Brothers but I don't want them thrown in here just so that I can review their work.
Edited by manofmystery - November 27 2008 at 18:31
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 Time always wins.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: November 28 2008 at 08:32 |
manofmystery wrote:
The prog metal category has to be cut up into 7 different descriptions and my ears have me placing more importance in the word metal than prog for any of the bands within that i've heard, and basically all I've said there is that I don't care for metal even if its labelled "prog" but that's my problem. That doesn't now mean that I believe former metal gods Metallica should be included on this site based on a few complex songs and the fact someone claims them as an influence. If there was a Prog Influences category then fine but hypothetically say the Dixie Dregs were influenced by, say, the Allman Brothers Band and say that said Allman Brothers had a few somewhat complex songs of there own then maybe.....see where we are here. Now I like the Allman Brothers but I don't want them thrown in here just so that I can review their work. |
They're not here "based on a few complex songs" - please review all of the reasoning rather than making such a snap assumption.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24439
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Posted: November 28 2008 at 09:06 |
manofmystery wrote:
seems like this band, above any other, needs to be eliminated from this website
sticks out like a sore thumb, why not add all metal bands then, or every single rock band for that matter |
Bands cannot be removed once added to the site. Sorry about that, but this is what the OWNER of PA wishes. I'm afraid that people who don't agree with this policy will just have to accept it, or find another place to hang out at.
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: November 28 2008 at 10:28 |
Certif1ed wrote:
manofmystery wrote:
The prog metal category has to be cut up into 7 different descriptions and my ears have me placing more importance in the word metal than prog for any of the bands within that i've heard, and basically all I've said there is that I don't care for metal even if its labelled "prog" but that's my problem. That doesn't now mean that I believe former metal gods Metallica should be included on this site based on a few complex songs and the fact someone claims them as an influence. If there was a Prog Influences category then fine but hypothetically say the Dixie Dregs were influenced by, say, the Allman Brothers Band and say that said Allman Brothers had a few somewhat complex songs of there own then maybe.....see where we are here. Now I like the Allman Brothers but I don't want them thrown in here just so that I can review their work. |
They're not here "based on a few complex songs" - please review all of the reasoning rather than making such a snap assumption. |
Going by what progrocker said here:
progrocker2244 wrote:
We don't add all metal bands because not all of them helped build prog metal like Metallica did. Their first 4 albums and their newest one have all been complex, and had longer compisitions. Most prog metal bands (Ex. Dream Theater) have named Metallica one of their favorite bands. Without a doubt in my mind Metallica belongs here. They're not quite prog metal, but they have had such an infuence on the genre that they deserve a place in the prog related section. |
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 Time always wins.
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WinterLight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 09 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 424
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Posted: November 28 2008 at 10:51 |
manofmystery wrote:
Going by what progrocker said here...
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Not exactly.
manofmystery wrote:
That doesn't now mean that I believe former metal gods Metallica should be included on this site based on a few complex songs and the fact someone claims them as an influence.
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progrocker2244 wrote:
Their first 4 albums and their newest one have all been complex, and had longer compisitions.
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My emphasis added in both quotations. I don't think any commentary on the discrepancy is necessary.
Edited by WinterLight - November 28 2008 at 15:47
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: November 28 2008 at 15:12 |
And if we are going to include all complex albums with long tracks we could put a lot of bands that aren't prog here. Frankly, I think that Metallica can only be justified as being here if there was an Influences category otherwise it's a little like the rock and roll hall of fame letting Madonna in, she was popular and influenced a generation of pop princesses but is that what rock is all about. Metallica is the band that turned down a bassist because he played too well for god's sake. Oh well, gotta run now and put on an album from my favorite grammy award winning metal band, Jethro Tull.
I do say, I enjoy this healthy debate and respect very much everyones passion and civility. Tell me this isn't fun.
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 Time always wins.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: November 29 2008 at 09:57 |
manofmystery wrote:
And if we are going to include all complex albums with long tracks we could put a lot of bands that aren't prog here. Frankly, I think that Metallica can only be justified as being here if there was an Influences category otherwise it's a little like the rock and roll hall of fame letting Madonna in, she was popular and influenced a generation of pop princesses but is that what rock is all about. Metallica is the band that turned down a bassist because he played too well for god's sake. Oh well, gotta run now and put on an album from my favorite grammy award winning metal band, Jethro Tull.
I do say, I enjoy this healthy debate and respect very much everyones passion and civility. Tell me this isn't fun. |
You're overlooking the fact that complexity and long tracks are not the only criteria for adding a band.
Metallica is also the band that took on a bassist because he was the best experimental metal bassist on the scene.
They are in Prog-Related, but it's self-evident that the music is Prog, not standard (or even simply elongated) metal.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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DatM
Forum Groupie
Joined: November 19 2008
Location: Berlin, Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 95
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Posted: November 29 2008 at 11:39 |
Metallica is kinda like pot...for many they were the gateway to harder dru...I mean, music...
Actually I think many thrash and metal bands showed prog leanings back then, which made a lot of metalheads like me check out Rush and other prog bands.
This is why DT made such an impact when they came out.
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