Reflections on the Russia’s invasion of Ukraine

jamesbaldwin wrote: @Nick 1. This IS an alanine thread, as it foolish to think it could turn into anything other than what it has. There is nothing wrong with calling the thread (not you) asinine, nor wishing for it to be closed. --- I disagree. I would never call a thread "asinine" and would never ask to close it. In fact, after 5 years of visiting this site, it is the first time that I realize that some threads undergo a closure and some messages are deleted. 2. Victims blaming is a thing, and I find it more disturbing for you to be thinking otherwise.  --- I dont think otherwise. Victim blaming is a very bad attitude. And I haven't done any "victim blading". I have never written that it depends on a Zelensky's fault that Putin invaded Ukraine. You will not find anything like this in what I have written. I criticized Zelenskij for how he is reacting to the invasion, i.e. for spreading fake news to terrorize Europe, offending and threatening Europeans for not wanting to go to war against Russia. Moreover, some month ago, I read this: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy 3. I never denied that Crimea is believed to be Russian by some. All I did was argue your ridiculous statement (and that is not meant as an attack or insult) that “to all intents and purposes” Crimea is Russian.  ---I mean this: Crimea is not recognized as part of Russia, but it is ruled by Russia. It is already part of the Russian political and military administration. It's a fact. Right or wrong, but a fact. To take it away from Russia, it needs a war. @Steve Whatever an undemocratic pro socialist stance means, it's a long way from anything I've written. (The only undemocratic socialist position that in some respects has brought well-being to its people is that of Cuba. But it has just one serious flaw: the non-democracy.) Zelenskij was a comedian until a few years ago: I don't see the evil in saying it. Nobody knows what will happen to him and how he will be remembered in history. 80s

No, your socialist anti democratic stance was exposed when you discussed terms of surrender for Ukraine when the population is not interrested in doing any such thing. You totally disregarded the will of the people. Democracy is about the people making choices, not outsiders or onlookers suggesting capitulation when the populous is not interested. This in itself is not evil to me, but it is what it is. It's your political view of what's better for the masses in opposition to what they want, if you realize it or not. Zelenskyy, rightly or wrongly, will be remembered long after you and I are dead. At least in the free world. In Russia, he will be vilified. But still remembered. You said more about Zelenskyy than just being a comedian, but that's not worth bickering over. I'm done. Carry on.

Edited by SteveG - March 17 2022 at 17:56

jamesbaldwin wrote: nick_h_nz wrote: jamesbaldwin wrote: tszirmay wrote: There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. I've writen: <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">In my opinion Zelenskij is proving to be an unreliable and dangerous politician because every day he sends false news (Chernobyl), creates provocative videos (Paris bombed), asks for NATO to enter the war, offends Europe which should show pride and go to war etc.</span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> </span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> This is a political opinion. It is easy to understand. But your anger (hatred? what?) at me prevents you from understanding it, and so it seems that you cannot distinguish political opinion from propaganda. You can try to distort what I say in many other ways, but you can never make an intelligent speech that shows that I do propaganda: I don't I do it. </span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> </span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> Your problem with me is just this: I do not align with the anti-Russian war propaganda that is rampant in the West. And by not lining up, you accuse me of doing anti-Ukrainian propaganda. However, unless you and others reach the goal of having this thread shut down, I will no longer respond to your allegations, and will continue to post my own or others' opinions. In Italy, for example, the discussion on whether or not to send weapons to Ukraine is heated, and there are nonviolent pacifist positions that I think are very interesting. </span> The bold print here seems reasonable enough to shut this thread down. As others have said, and as I believe myself, you are clearly intelligent, but not doing yourself justice. You claim your words are distorted, but I’ve seen you distort others words more than I’ve seen them distort yours. You’ve certainly distorted mine. But maybe you’re unaware you’re even doing so? I can’t I,whine you doing it maliciously, so I think because of your own stubborn dogmatism you are misconstruing the opinions of others, and making inferences that you perhaps shouldn’t. I don’t believe anyone has the goal of having this thread shut down, but you have proved enough that it was perhaps not a good idea to reopen it. Your political opinions are indeed easy to understand, but they are just that - opinions. And they are rather simplistic ones. As yo7 admitted in discussion about Crimea, that region’s history is complex, yet you seek a simplistic solution, and defer to one opinion of, if I remember rightly, the wife of a good friend, as “proof” that your opinion is meaningful. You’re right that no one can ever make an intelligent speech that shows that you “do propaganda”, because I don’t think anyone thinks that at all. However you do seem to erroneously believe that you’ve been unaffected by propaganda, as your political opinions certainly seem to imply that. Or maybe I’m inferring incorrectly from your words, in a similar way to that in which you’ve inferred incorrectly from the words of others. You accuse people of anger and hatred towards you, and I’ve not seen any of that. Frustration and pity, perhaps - but not anger and hatred. As someone else has said, stop playing the victim. And if you’re not, then think about how to re-word your posts so as not to appear that way. No-one is bullying you, and why should people not respond to your allegations with those of their own, so long as it is in a calm and polite manner? Your views are of a minority, and while that doesn’t make them wrong, it’s obvious that a lot of people won’t think them right. Why do you say I distorted what you think? Explain it to me. I have read two of your messages, the first in response to mine, the second I do not remember in response from whom, I quoted them and it seems to me that you said you are in favor of the third world war. If I misunderstood you, tell me why, so we understand each other better. I know many Ukrainians, Milan is full of Ukrainians, there is a large community. I gave you the example of a friend of mine's wife to explain to you that it is not true that all Ukrainians think that Crimea is an integral part of Ukraine. Many of Ukrainians I know, they expected Russia would try to take back Crimea years ago and were not astonished at that invasion, knowing Crimea was half Russian (if not more) and half Ukrainian. That's all. Most of them hate Putin and agree with Zelensky, but some have not loved Zelensky since he was elected. For the rest, I deduce that you have not read all the messages, otherwise you would have seen that, after criticizing Zelenskij (page 7), Steve said I'm undemocratic: Whatever reason you have to malign Zelenskyy can only be born from your anti democracy, pro socialist stance. To freedom loving people, he is a hero in an era when so few exist Last post on page 7. Then, on page 8: Easy Money accused me of Blame the victim in this way: I hope we do not get anymore of this 'blame the victim' nonsense from the previous page. Reminds me of when people say a rape victim was just 'asking for it'. I find such thinking to be extremely disturbing. The Dark Elf wrote: I've asked for this asinine thread to be closed, but I guess things have to get out of hand before that happens. I know be it. And Tszirmay accused me of propaganda (besides having fun of me because I always say "I"... who knows, maybe it's true due to my poor English... consider that in Italian the subject "I" is almost always implied , so it is rarely used) There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. ------ In the end: I am not interested in being a victim, I am interested in being able to keep this thread open and discuss with respect, but if it is impossible to peacefully discuss the war in progress, ok, I'll make up my mind.  Still I hope it can be done. Finally, Nick, I have never accused anyone of making propaganda.  I do not publish anything that comes from Russia, both because it is very difficult to find it in Europe (the two main Russian sites have been closed) and because I prefer to read the arguments of Western intellectuals that I believe independent and free, and I do it with both right-wings and left-wings. Speaking of those on the left, I would like to point out that I do not know any Marxist intellectuals who are in favor of Putin, the Marxists despise Putin to the highest degree. My favorites are nonviolent pacifists like Ilan Pappé and Noam Chomsky, the two I have posted here. I hope I explained myself with the correct words.

Lorenzo, before I disappear into the ether, I would like to state one thing that may be helpful to you. I do not see see a pro socialist anti democratic stance as good or bad but only a mindset. As a former diehard socialist myself, I believe I know of what I speak. Socialism is much more than the belief in a set of dictates and principles. It is also a way of thinking, talking and acting outside of any tracts written by Marx. If someone determines that a certain action is for the good of the people, even if it goes against the general consensus of that people, than that is a socialist anti democratic mindset. In other words, an authoritian person or body knows what's best for the people as they themselves can't make that decision. In some cases, that decision can be for the general good, so it's not always a negative thing. In some cases that authoritarian decision is detrimental to the common good. That's what I meant by a pro socialist anti democratic mindset. Its not always good or bad, it just is what it is. So, good luck to you in you future posts.

Edited by SteveG - March 17 2022 at 16:12

Just curious, how many other people in this thread have friends and relatives in or very near this war. For example:
My girlfriend (Basia), has cousins in Ukraine who are now missing and can't be located.
Basia's mother lives in Poland near the border of Belarus where there is some troop activity. In a few weeks Basia is supposed to go to Poland to help her mother get through a serious operation. She will be there for a month.
Basia also has many friends in Russia and elsewhere in Eastern Europe.
One of my best friends is working 16 hour shifts processing refugees in Vilnius.
My friend Luba has parents and many friends in Russia.
Anyone else?

Edited by Easy Money - March 17 2022 at 14:34

nick_h_nz wrote: jamesbaldwin wrote: tszirmay wrote: There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. I've writen: In my opinion Zelenskij is proving to be an unreliable and dangerous politician because every day he sends false news (Chernobyl), creates provocative videos (Paris bombed), asks for NATO to enter the war, offends Europe which should show pride and go to war etc. This is a political opinion. It is easy to understand. But your anger (hatred? what?) at me prevents you from understanding it, and so it seems that you cannot distinguish political opinion from propaganda. You can try to distort what I say in many other ways, but you can never make an intelligent speech that shows that I do propaganda: I don't I do it. Your problem with me is just this: I do not align with the anti-Russian war propaganda that is rampant in the West. And by not lining up, you accuse me of doing anti-Ukrainian propaganda. However, unless you and others reach the goal of having this thread shut down, I will no longer respond to your allegations, and will continue to post my own or others' opinions. In Italy, for example, the discussion on whether or not to send weapons to Ukraine is heated, and there are nonviolent pacifist positions that I think are very interesting. The bold print here seems reasonable enough to shut this thread down. As others have said, and as I believe myself, you are clearly intelligent, but not doing yourself justice. You claim your words are distorted, but I’ve seen you distort others words more than I’ve seen them distort yours. You’ve certainly distorted mine. But maybe you’re unaware you’re even doing so? I can’t I,whine you doing it maliciously, so I think because of your own stubborn dogmatism you are misconstruing the opinions of others, and making inferences that you perhaps shouldn’t. I don’t believe anyone has the goal of having this thread shut down, but you have proved enough that it was perhaps not a good idea to reopen it. Your political opinions are indeed easy to understand, but they are just that - opinions. And they are rather simplistic ones. As yo7 admitted in discussion about Crimea, that region’s history is complex, yet you seek a simplistic solution, and defer to one opinion of, if I remember rightly, the wife of a good friend, as “proof” that your opinion is meaningful. You’re right that no one can ever make an intelligent speech that shows that you “do propaganda”, because I don’t think anyone thinks that at all. However you do seem to erroneously believe that you’ve been unaffected by propaganda, as your political opinions certainly seem to imply that. Or maybe I’m inferring incorrectly from your words, in a similar way to that in which you’ve inferred incorrectly from the words of others. You accuse people of anger and hatred towards you, and I’ve not seen any of that. Frustration and pity, perhaps - but not anger and hatred. As someone else has said, stop playing the victim. And if you’re not, then think about how to re-word your posts so as not to appear that way. No-one is bullying you, and why should people not respond to your allegations with those of their own, so long as it is in a calm and polite manner? Your views are of a minority, and while that doesn’t make them wrong, it’s obvious that a lot of people won’t think them right.

Lewian wrote: SteveG wrote: I believe that one person here would be happy with the war if Ukraine was a communist state and they were protecting their right to be socialist. Should we be prohibited from stating these feelings based on that person's implied socialist agendas? You do realise that this is a personal attack rather than engaging with his arguments and opinion, don't you? (Of course nobody forces you to engage with his arguments and opinion but why then are you here?)

I'm here because I constantly hear a never ending diatribe as to why and how NATO are responsible for the Ukraine war, how Zelenzkyy is a comedian and clown no better than Putin and many other things repeated ad infinitum. And these things in my mind are wrong. If someone stated their opinion one time or had to back up their opinion with multiple posts, than that would be acceptable. Not this constant propaganda machine. As for a an insult, yes it's insulting. But it's also how I truly feel. There is no character assassination in my mind. Just disgust over a never ending opinion that's been beaten to death. 

Edited by SteveG - March 17 2022 at 12:09

Lewian wrote: I don't agree with Lorenzo but I do believe he is treated unfairly here.

Not only here and in the previous Ukraine thread, but Lorenzo was also provoked in unrelated threads related to his stance related to the topic in question. I'll refrain from mentioning the name of the "provoker". But fact is fact.

Edited by Archisorcerus - March 17 2022 at 11:53

Lorenzo was definitely treated unfairly in the original Ukraine thread, and things definitely became far too personal there. There was offensive and insulting language that has no place in this forum, and Lorenzo was definitely attacked for his views. But I think he has had a far fairer hearing this time around. Perhaps I have missed some posts, but I honestly haven’t seen any unfair posts here. In fact, Lorenzo has at times (intentionally or not) shown more disdain for the views of others, than I’ve seen others show his. There seems to be a certain intransigence to some people’s views, that I think is understandable. Personally I don’t think, after the previous blocking of threads regarding discussion on Ukraine, that any should have been re-opened. But while this is still open, I see no reason why Lorenzo’s opinions cannot be rebutted? As I say, I may have missed some posts, but what I’ve seen have not been unfair (or worse, offensive, insulting and personal, as they were in the previous thread).

nick_h_nz wrote: jamesbaldwin wrote: tszirmay wrote: There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. I've writen: In my opinion Zelenskij is proving to be an unreliable and dangerous politician because every day he sends false news (Chernobyl), creates provocative videos (Paris bombed), asks for NATO to enter the war, offends Europe which should show pride and go to war etc. This is a political opinion. It is easy to understand. But your anger (hatred? what?) at me prevents you from understanding it, and so it seems that you cannot distinguish political opinion from propaganda. You can try to distort what I say in many other ways, but you can never make an intelligent speech that shows that I do propaganda: I don't I do it. Your problem with me is just this: I do not align with the anti-Russian war propaganda that is rampant in the West. And by not lining up, you accuse me of doing anti-Ukrainian propaganda. However, unless you and others reach the goal of having this thread shut down, I will no longer respond to your allegations, and will continue to post my own or others' opinions. In Italy, for example, the discussion on whether or not to send weapons to Ukraine is heated, and there are nonviolent pacifist positions that I think are very interesting. The bold print here seems reasonable enough to shut this thread down. As others have said, and as I believe myself, you are clearly intelligent, but not doing yourself justice. You claim your words are distorted, but I’ve seen you distort others words more than I’ve seen them distort yours. You’ve certainly distorted mine. But maybe you’re unaware you’re even doing so? I can’t I,whine you doing it maliciously, so I think because of your own stubborn dogmatism you are misconstruing the opinions of others, and making inferences that you perhaps shouldn’t. I don’t believe anyone has the goal of having this thread shut down, but you have proved enough that it was perhaps not a good idea to reopen it. Your political opinions are indeed easy to understand, but they are just that - opinions. And they are rather simplistic ones. As yo7 admitted in discussion about Crimea, that region’s history is complex, yet you seek a simplistic solution, and defer to one opinion of, if I remember rightly, the wife of a good friend, as “proof” that your opinion is meaningful. You’re right that no one can ever make an intelligent speech that shows that you “do propaganda”, because I don’t think anyone thinks that at all. However you do seem to erroneously believe that you’ve been unaffected by propaganda, as your political opinions certainly seem to imply that. Or maybe I’m inferring incorrectly from your words, in a similar way to that in which you’ve inferred incorrectly from the words of others. You accuse people of anger and hatred towards you, and I’ve not seen any of that. Frustration and pity, perhaps - but not anger and hatred. As someone else has said, stop playing the victim. And if you’re not, then think about how to re-word your posts so as not to appear that way. No-one is bullying you, and why should people not respond to your allegations with those of their own, so long as it is in a calm and polite manner? Your views are of a minority, and while that doesn’t make them wrong, it’s obvious that a lot of people won’t think them right.

jamesbaldwin wrote: tszirmay wrote: There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. I've writen: In my opinion Zelenskij is proving to be an unreliable and dangerous politician because every day he sends false news (Chernobyl), creates provocative videos (Paris bombed), asks for NATO to enter the war, offends Europe which should show pride and go to war etc. This is a political opinion. It is easy to understand. But your anger (hatred? what?) at me prevents you from understanding it, and so it seems that you cannot distinguish political opinion from propaganda. You can try to distort what I say in many other ways, but you can never make an intelligent speech that shows that I do propaganda: I don't I do it. Your problem with me is just this: I do not align with the anti-Russian war propaganda that is rampant in the West. And by not lining up, you accuse me of doing anti-Ukrainian propaganda. However, unless you and others reach the goal of having this thread shut down, I will no longer respond to your allegations, and will continue to post my own or others' opinions. In Italy, for example, the discussion on whether or not to send weapons to Ukraine is heated, and there are nonviolent pacifist positions that I think are very interesting.