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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 14:18
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Hundreds seeking refuge in a theatre in Mariupol were just bombed.
"Video shows Mariupol theater packed with women and children before it was destroyed"
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-march-16-2022/
In a violent action filled with atrocities, this may be the worst so far. Heartbreaking.

Edited by SteveG - March 16 2022 at 14:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 14:15
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The first thing that is clear is that it's for the Ukrainians to decide, and not for us, whether to accept one or more of Putin's conditions. One may personally hope for the Ukrainians to fight on or to concede, but it's Ukrainian lives on the line in the first place, and of course their country.

That said, here's what I think. I'm really in two minds about this.
For me the key question is really whether Putin would stop if these points, neutral Ukraine, Donbass region and Crimea to Russia, were to be fulfilled. If this were indeed the case, many lives could be saved by such an agreement, and for sure, while the Ukrainians may want to fight on for their own reasons, and they have the right to do it as it's their country, nobody in the West sitting safely at home in my view should say, better these people die because it is just not morally right to cede anything to Putin.

I don't expect Putin to be replaced in the near future, and neither do I expect the Russians to give up winning this war. Russia is, unfortunately, too big and strong to be effectively policed. The best that can be done against Russian aggression is to have the ability to defend oneself, optimally as a powerful alliance, strong enough that Russia wouldn't dare to attack in the first place. I very much hope that NATO is strong enough for this, and of course in Europe we should do all we can to make ourselves more independent of the US, or at least to contribute stronger to our own defense. Unfortunately this has not worked out for Ukraine, however I do think it is right to support Ukraine only as far as we can without becoming direct party of the war. There is in my view certainly a chance that Putin understands he cannot go further, but he has already gone so far that he probably cannot accept defeat there, meaning that he may be up for world war with NATO over Ukraine (as conceding there would kill all he stands for, inconceivable for him to allow at pretty much any price), but not beyond. The bitter pill to swallow obviously would be that he may get what he wanted (maybe less but still enough for him to celebrate it as a victory), and we will feel bad about this. Hard to take really but I can very realistically imagine worse to happen. At the end of the day, let's support the Ukrainians as far as they want to go, but for sure let's not try to push them further. And also, with all due respect, I wouldn't go to world war for them, as this would involve many other human beings in many places who haven't decided on their own that they want to be part of it. Too high a price to pay for NATO pride!

The risk is of course that Putin indeed may try his luck elsewhere if he is at least to some extent successful in Ukraine. I'm not as sure as Nick that this will be the case. The Ukraine had a special place in Russian communication before this year, Georgia and Kazakhstan can hardly be sold to the Russian people as "really Russian". I don't believe he will directly attack NATO. This in fact (and also any potential Georgian, Moldovan etc. advanture) becomes the less likely the more the Russians suffer in Ukraine, which of course is a very good reason to hope for the Ukrainians to fight on and to do as well as they can, and to help them there.

I don't know. Not sure whether I envy those who think they know what's right. You may look down on me for being so morally weak that I'd think Donbass and Crimea can be conceded to the aggressor to save lives, but here we go. Putin needs to be stopped and the world needs peace. I do have on my radar what happened in 1938 and I know there is no guarantee Putin will stop. I just give a narrowly larger subjective probability for avoiding further atrocities in case Putin's conditions are accepted for once (of course with a properly free and self governed remaining part of the Ukraine), Putin is not quite Hitler and 2022 is not quite 1938, but at the end who am I to know? Up to the Ukrainians to decide for themselves!

   
A very thoughtful and honest post. I can only add that it's up to the Ukrainians to decide what is right and support their decisions. Either to fight on or surrender. It is, as you said, their country and their choice.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 13:48
Hundreds seeking refuge in a theatre in Mariupol were just bombed.
"Video shows Mariupol theater packed with women and children before it was destroyed"
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-march-16-2022/

Edited by Easy Money - March 16 2022 at 13:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 12:37
The first thing that is clear is that it's for the Ukrainians to decide, and not for us, whether to accept one or more of Putin's conditions. One may personally hope for the Ukrainians to fight on or to concede, but it's Ukrainian lives on the line in the first place, and of course their country.

That said, here's what I think. I'm really in two minds about this.
For me the key question is really whether Putin would stop if these points, neutral Ukraine, Donbass region and Crimea to Russia, were to be fulfilled. If this were indeed the case, many lives could be saved by such an agreement, and for sure, while the Ukrainians may want to fight on for their own reasons, and they have the right to do it as it's their country, nobody in the West sitting safely at home in my view should say, better these people die because it is just not morally right to cede anything to Putin.

I don't expect Putin to be replaced in the near future, and neither do I expect the Russians to give up winning this war. Russia is, unfortunately, too big and strong to be effectively policed. The best that can be done against Russian aggression is to have the ability to defend oneself, optimally as a powerful alliance, strong enough that Russia wouldn't dare to attack in the first place. I very much hope that NATO is strong enough for this, and of course in Europe we should do all we can to make ourselves more independent of the US, or at least to contribute stronger to our own defense. Unfortunately this has not worked out for Ukraine, however I do think it is right to support Ukraine only as far as we can without becoming direct party of the war. There is in my view certainly a chance that Putin understands he cannot go further, but he has already gone so far that he probably cannot accept defeat there, meaning that he may be up for world war with NATO over Ukraine (as conceding there would kill all he stands for, inconceivable for him to allow at pretty much any price), but not beyond. The bitter pill to swallow obviously would be that he may get what he wanted (maybe less but still enough for him to celebrate it as a victory), and we will feel bad about this. Hard to take really but I can very realistically imagine worse to happen. At the end of the day, let's support the Ukrainians as far as they want to go, but for sure let's not try to push them further. And also, with all due respect, I wouldn't go to world war for them, as this would involve many other human beings in many places who haven't decided on their own that they want to be part of it. Too high a price to pay for NATO pride!

The risk is of course that Putin indeed may try his luck elsewhere if he is at least to some extent successful in Ukraine. I'm not as sure as Nick that this will be the case. The Ukraine had a special place in Russian communication before this year, Georgia and Kazakhstan can hardly be sold to the Russian people as "really Russian". I don't believe he will directly attack NATO. This in fact (and also any potential Georgian, Moldovan etc. advanture) becomes the less likely the more the Russians suffer in Ukraine, which of course is a very good reason to hope for the Ukrainians to fight on and to do as well as they can, and to help them there.

I don't know. Not sure whether I envy those who think they know what's right. You may look down on me for being so morally weak that I'd think Donbass and Crimea can be conceded to the aggressor to save lives, but here we go. Putin needs to be stopped and the world needs peace. I do have on my radar what happened in 1938 and I know there is no guarantee Putin will stop. I just give a narrowly larger subjective probability for avoiding further atrocities in case Putin's conditions are accepted for once (of course with a properly free and self governed remaining part of the Ukraine), Putin is not quite Hitler and 2022 is not quite 1938, but at the end who am I to know? Up to the Ukrainians to decide for themselves!

   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 12:07
More news from Slava working the refugee center in Vilnius:

Migration Dept opened three more refugee centers around country, so the one in Vilnius is slightly less crowded. From other hand, no one knows what will happen tomorrow. These days authorities organize Ukrainian refugees transfer from Moldova to Lithuania, Moldova is flooded by them and absolutely have no resources even for minimal support. Poland is overcrowded with almost 2 MLN of refugees. Germany asked Poland to stop transfer refugees there. 15% of Warsaw population in a moment are refugees from Ukraine.

Today the decision to recruit 270 more employees around the country has been done by Lithuanian Migration Dept (for now there are 500 + employees in Dept in total) what sounds as relief. But the recruitment takes time, and than then all will need at least initial training
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 12:00
The issues that face the entire world are not going to go away because an ego driven madman wants some attention.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 11:09
I have always been anti-war and have actively worked against all US military aggression, but I think we have a special case here. I don't think putin will stop unless he is made to stop. His utter disregard for human life, both Russian and non-Russian, has been made very clear at this point.

Edited by Easy Money - March 16 2022 at 11:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 10:52
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Yeah, it’s very easy to choose the acceptance of one country losing sovereignty to the another, when it is not your own. That’s why Chamberlain’s “peace in our time” was cheered for.

But there’s no way Putin will stop there, if his demands are met. He may not go further into Ukraine, but there are plenty of other juicy morsels for him: Moldova, Georgia, Kazachstan. Not only that, but it will be further proof that NATO will allow him to do just that - so long as he doesn’t intrude on their borders.

You may well be fine with that, but I am not. And I would rather more countries were drawn into the conflict. I don’t think they should need to be drawn into it, so much as put themselves into it - but clearly that is not going to happen. So I hope one of those shells near the Polish border accidentally goes a little too far. I hope we do head into WWIII - because apart from his death, it’s the only way Putin will be stopped.


I understand your point of view on this, and regrettably, I agree that we may have reached that point where something more significant needs to be done. I absolutely detest war, but if democracies are to survive in this world we have to put our foot down to autocracies and say enough is enough. Every time we give in to their demands, they think they can take more. I'm still hoping cooler heads will prevail, but that seems less and less likely to happen.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 10:43
^Oh, I think she did, but is being wilfully obtuse (as usual).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 10:41
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

[QUOTE=progaardvark][QUOTE=omphaloskepsis]


Need I remind you that before this conflict you distrusted US intelligence sources and thought Putin would not invade Ukraine? Guess which sources were right on that one. Maybe you should reconsider that you're being duped by Putin's propaganda.

Thanks for reminding me of my December 11 post, which is still visible on Progarchives. I'll paste it below.
Dec. 11, 2021
"My opinion-

1. As long as Ukraine does not join NATO.
2. As long as NATO/America does not install missiles in Ukraine. 
3. As long as NATO/America does not put Troops on the ground in Ukraine.
4. As long as Ukraine does not attack Donbas,

Russia will not attack Ukraine." 

1.Ukraine attempted to join NATO. I saw it on America News.

2. Ukraine Nazi battalion "Azov" shelled and attacked the Donbas in the weeks proceeding Russian invasion. The Azov Battalion proudly admit that they are NAZI's. They killed thousands of people in the Donbass. 
 
3. Although America did not put troops on ground.  America financed Bio Labs (Which America's Victoria Nuland admitted before the Senate).  If you remember, America invaded Iraq after accusing Iraq of Weapons of Mass Destruction.  According to International Law, Bio Labs qualify as Weapons of Mass Destruction. Victoria Nuland expressed worry at what Russia would do if Russia took over Ukraine/American Bio Labs.



ProgArdvark wrote-
"The spellings do matter on that propaganda map you posted. By using Russian spellings for Ukrainian cities, it is symbolic of Putin treating Ukraine as if it was Russian and always belonged to Russia. It's an insult to the Ukrainian people."

American Spellings are used on American Media maps of Ukraine. I agree with you ProgArdvark. By using America spellings for Ukrainian cities, it is symbolic of Biden treating Ukraine as if it was American and will always belong to America. It's an insult to the Ukrainian people."




You didn't understand my post at all. I'm sorry that I can't get through to you.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 10:40
Yeah, it’s very easy to choose the acceptance of one country losing sovereignty to the another, when it is not your own. That’s why Chamberlain’s “peace in our time” was cheered for.

But there’s no way Putin will stop there, if his demands are met. He may not go further into Ukraine, but there are plenty of other juicy morsels for him: Moldova, Georgia, Kazachstan. Not only that, but it will be further proof that NATO will allow him to do just that - so long as he doesn’t intrude on their borders.

You may well be fine with that, but I am not. And I would rather more countries were drawn into the conflict. I don’t think they should need to be drawn into it, so much as put themselves into it - but clearly that is not going to happen. So I hope one of those shells near the Polish border accidentally goes a little too far. I hope we do head into WWIII - because apart from his death, it’s the only way Putin will be stopped.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 10:33
Easy, I choose the acceptance of these concessions to Putin which, I repeat, do not provide for annexation of any Ukrainian territory.  

Around 80 million people died in WW II.  I don't want a nuclear war.  I fear hundreds of millions would perish. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 10:28
Easy. Third World War. And I would have chosen this option in 2014, too - though perhaps less easily. But certainly, I find it disgusting that the West sits back and watches simply because Ukraine is not part of their gang.

I used to not understand how people could willingly go to fight in a war which did not (at that time) affect their own country or liberty. But, though of course I would be terrified, I would willingly go and fight for Ukraine if there were conscription. I would be metaphorical cannon fodder, but I would still feel that was a morally right way to die.

I am a pacifist at heart. I have never been in a fight in my life. I used to bullied at school, in part because I would never fight back. And I have never wanted to fight. I don’t agree with war. But Putin has made this a war, and I agree with sitting on the fence even less than I do with war.

I think it’s stupid to fear Putin’s nuclear threats, and not go to war with Russia because of them. In fact, I don’t for a moment believe that the NATO leaders are genuinely afraid of Putin going nuke. It makes a convenient excuse, as there are convenient excuses on all sides of the war for actions, reactions, and inactions.

I’m sure that wasn’t the answer you were expecting, but there at is. You have named one person who believes Crimea is Russian, and that is meaningless to me. I could come back at you with others who say and think different. I know both Russians and Ukrainians in Crimea who believe Crimea is Ukraine. There is no “intents and purposes” at all, except for an illegal invasion and occupation.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 10:13
@Nick

Nick, the history of Ukraine, and of Crimea, and the relations of these areas with Russia are very complex.

In any case, Crimea is an area with a Russian majority, and occupied by Russia. Whether this is right or not can be debated, but the fact remains that nothing now but a war against Russia can change this state of affairs.
So I don't see how we can think that Crimea should go back to being an integral part of Ukraine.

I have no nationalistic sentiment, and no sympathy for Putin. I'm just saying that Crimea is already Russian. And it is not an occupation like the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories, because Crimea has a Russian majority. The Ukrainian wife of one of my best friends agrees that Crimea is Russian.
And I'm talking about a girl whose parents are living now in Kiev, under the Russian bombs.

The Donbass republics have been in revolt for many years and Ukraine in Minsk had signed pacts that guaranteed them semi-independence. You can believe what you want, in a pro-Nato or pro-Putin narrative, but in those regions there was a repression by the Ukraine, which also used the famous neo-Nazi battalions. This was reported by the Western press in recent years, not the Russian press.

So, even in that case, I don't see how you can think, now that Russia has invaded Ukraine starting from the defense of those republics, how these areas can return to Ukraine. Only a supporter of Ukrainian nationalist propaganda can think this: but then Ukraine would become the aggressor who wants to annex land that is no longer its own.

I would have no problem if the Italian South Tyrol, which we call Alto Adige, were ceded by Italy to Austria if its citizens feel more Austrian, just as I believe that Spain should allow Catalonia to hold a referendum to ask for secession.
Based on this, I could say that the best solution in the Donbass republics would be a referendum for independence from Ukraine, but I do not think it is realistic. Same thing for Crimea. 
But again, here we are in the field of the ideal, and not of the real.

Finally, I assure you that many people of Western Europe have understood, at this point, that the alternatives are:

1) The Third World War (Nato against Russia) or a long and devastating war between Ukraine and Russia

2) the acceptance of these concessions to Putin which, I repeat, do not provide for annexation of any Ukrainian territory.

So, what do you prefer?


Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 09:43
This may have been posted before, but I think it might make interesting reading for some. There are definitely some Westsplainers who post in this thread…. 😜


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 09:17
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

To understand why the Ukrainians don't want to surrender, just look at how putin's government treats the Russian people. Ukrainins know they will be treated even worse.


This is a fair point. Putin seems like a guy that thinks he has "unmatched wisdom" (sound familiar?), so he has the "right" to decide on everything. Gosh, how horrendous!..
I understand that a lot of Russians who are currently fleeing their government are headed for Turkey. Have you seen many Russian refugees in Izmir?

Actually I haven't. They can be seen around the Alsancak and Konak areas of İzmir, as I guess. I haven't been to those places for a long time. 

Edited by Archisorcerus - March 16 2022 at 09:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 09:14
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Yes, there are many victims in this war, the people of Ukraine, Russia, Poland, Lithuania and more will suffer for a long time to come. This is why I donate money to Razom INC, so that they can help provide much needed medical supplies.

In and around the Europe region, my country is said to be the most negatively affected country economically, prospectively... due to the war in Ukraine. Our economy is already terrible. Painful to imagine the worse. Everybody was cursing the year 2019, but the succeeding years have been even more brutal. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 09:13
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

To understand why the Ukrainians don't want to surrender, just look at how putin's government treats the Russian people. Ukrainins know they will be treated even worse.


This is a fair point. Putin seems like a guy that thinks he has "unmatched wisdom" (sound familiar?), so he has the "right" to decide on everything. Gosh, how horrendous!..
I understand that a lot of Russians who are currently fleeing their government are headed for Turkey. Have you seen many Russian refugees in Izmir?

Edited by Easy Money - March 16 2022 at 09:14
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 09:11
Question: Is it difficult to understand that a people would rather die fighting than to be a citizen of a police state oligarchy where civil rights are non existent, state media controls the news and there's no such thing as a free elections?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 09:07
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

To understand why the Ukrainians don't want to surrender, just look at how putin's government treats the Russian people. Ukrainins know they will be treated even worse.
And they know that because history has shown them that over an over again. Putin can say all he like that Russia and Ukraine are one people, and that the nations are like brothers, but he doesn’t mean it. And no Ukrainian believes it. Brothers don’t treat each other the way Russia has treated Ukraine for centuries.

Sure Ukraine and Russia have historical ties. They go by the names of war and genocide. Russians are the majority in Crimea because of mass “deportation” of Crimean Tartars. That, along with the Holdomor are examples of genocide against Ukrainian peoples.
During the “better” periods of Soviet Russia, Ukraine was still subject to shortages of many kinds.
Ukrainian culture and language has been subject to persecution and punishment for centuries.

Many Russians who have lived in Ukraine have done so to escape Russia. They are Russian, but they feel Ukrainian. The Russians you hear of who clamour for freedom and independence in the Donbas over the last eight years are almost all new transplants. There has been trouble in the Donbas because Russia has been creating a pretext to invade and occupy the Donbas in the same manner it did Crimea. I don’t know anyone who has been following events in Ukraine since 2014 who was that surprised by the “peacekeeping”. For many observers it was never a matter of if, so much as when.

I admit I didn’t believe Putin would invade beyond the Donbas, and that came as a huge surprise. But perhaps it shouldn’t have.  But I definitely don’t believe that either the Donbas nor Crimea should be ceded to Putin, just to stop the aggression. And I find it strange that someone as intelligent as Lorenzo seems to think this is reasonable, or wonders why Ukraine isn’t happy to do this.



Edited by nick_h_nz - March 16 2022 at 09:08
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