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Topic ClosedCan the early 70s prog sound be cloned nowadays?

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Rick Robson View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 05:10
^Interesting, would you give more details about this reading? Anyways it's obvious that a composer with a sharper memory doesn't need to be machine programed with that 'sensitive' The Emily Howell algorithm in order to compose something new. And I bet to see when these sorts of programs can make "she" capable of feel anger, love, nostalgia, anguish, sadness joy etc., music is all about this man.


"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 21:39
Have you read Computer Models of Musical Creativity? Just out of curiosity. They say "she" has her own style in the article I read. Music is created out of experience, ability, memory, and the climate of the creator's life at the time of the creation. It's just interesting to think of a composer with a sharper memory, or the ability to weed out music that is recycled unknowingly by humans all the time, for example.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 20:32
The program does not "have ideas", it is not sentient, it is not intelligent and it is not creative. It is an algorithm that follows a complex set of rules. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 20:25
The Emily Howell program is very interesting. I hadn't heard of this. It's naturally unsettling for living things to hear that a machine can be made to have its own ideas. People learn, work, make plans, know they're going to die...and a machine is born with an encyclopedic knowledge of all music, and will never have to wait for the moment of inspiration? Sure, that can make a guy feel completely useless. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 19:46
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

 
Thank you for this story!
 
The point I wanted to make was that it didn't matter if we cloned or not ... we're too silly to know the difference and appreciate anything anyway, without the commercial bruhaha, or the PA bruhaha .... which is just like saying that we will never know, understand or even appreciate anything that clones anything because it is automatically "cold" and a "machine", and sex is not likely to be fun unlike some of the sci-fi books have told us!  And Dean will add the professorial notes to the article!


If Dean writes notes to a sci-fi sex manual I'll queue up in the pouring rain for him to sign my copy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 11:58
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

 
Thank you for this story!
 
The point I wanted to make was that it didn't matter if we cloned or not ... we're too silly to know the difference and appreciate anything anyway, without the commercial bruhaha, or the PA bruhaha .... which is just like saying that we will never know, understand or even appreciate anything that clones anything because it is automatically "cold" and a "machine", and sex is not likely to be fun unlike some of the sci-fi books have told us!  And Dean will add the professorial notes to the article!


Edited by moshkito - February 27 2015 at 11:59
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 11:45
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

There is something on this thread that you folks got to take a look at.

In Califfornia, in one of the Universities there was a major project that create something called "Emily". She was a magnificant musician and could do all styles and show off her versatility and one day she put out a couple of CD's that a lot of people bought to the excitement of the university, of course!

She could, easily, compose just like Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven ... and everyone liked her work.

One day, she was asked to do a concert and they set her up and she was on stage beautifully dressed when the audience came in and in the introduction, they were told that Emily would play new works in the manner of any composer they wanted.

Half the audience walked out! They were the same hippocrits that also liked her music before!

The other half was amazed at how well she could clone the originals ... but that it did not help further the music development.

Emily is still there ... kinda frozen in time, putting together a few pieces here and there, but some folks that "like the style" don't like her "style" which is as original as can be without being a copy!

So, if you EVER, want to deal with this, go listen and study Emily a little. She's not a fine woman for you to sleep with, but she does have really good vibes and pipes! Unffortunately, you might think that she's a bit too rigid and not fun, albeit a bit electric!

 
Thank you for this story!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 10:53
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The 'Emily Howell' algorithm follows a set of adaptive rules, albeit very complex style and composition rules. This is no different to Wakeman playing nursery rhymes in the style of Mozart or Ravell.
 
Very educational and a very interesting viewpoint.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 10:03
^Wow. Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 09:57
The 'Emily Howell' algorithm follows a set of adaptive rules, albeit very complex style and composition rules. This is no different to Wakeman playing nursery rhymes in the style of Mozart or Ravell.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 09:08

Hi,

There is something on this thread that you folks got to take a look at.

In Califfornia, in one of the Universities there was a major project that create something called "Emily". She was a magnificant musician and could do all styles and show off her versatility and one day she put out a couple of CD's that a lot of people bought to the excitement of the university, of course!

She could, easily, compose just like Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven ... and everyone liked her work.

One day, she was asked to do a concert and they set her up and she was on stage beautifully dressed when the audience came in and in the introduction, they were told that Emily would play new works in the manner of any composer they wanted.

Half the audience walked out! They were the same hippocrits that also liked her music before!

The other half was amazed at how well she could clone the originals ... but that it did not help further the music development.

Emily is still there ... kinda frozen in time, putting together a few pieces here and there, but some folks that "like the style" don't like her "style" which is as original as can be without being a copy!

So, if you EVER, want to deal with this, go listen and study Emily a little. She's not a fine woman for you to sleep with, but she does have really good vibes and pipes! Unffortunately, you might think that she's a bit too rigid and not fun, albeit a bit electric!

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 08:26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B3J_Alj7IU
If you watch the vid beginning around 3:17, Wakeman discusses how everything falls into place naturally. In point , this is a better way of creating original music rather than focusing on what can be cloned.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 08:07
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTvZ6ZqOhyo
This is something that can't be cloned. The natural reaction between an audience and a band.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 00:53
Stop being a Richard.





p.s. I apologize to the forum moderators because I called Svetonnio a Rochard and also to the forum members who are called Richard, but It was stronger than me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2015 at 00:32
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Back to the OP's intent, "Can the early 70s prog sound be cloned nowadays?"  

It is instructive to do a bit of research - "to clone" means "to make an exact copy of (a person, animal or plant)  
I don't think we are talking exactly of doing that - rather, making new music that hews very closely to the 70's prog formula = vocal harmonies (usually), odd time signatures, rock instrumentation (bass, drum, guitar) with some odd bits tossed in (organ, Mellotron, synth, piano), and perhaps visionary/mystical lyrical content.

Many have tried, but few have succeeded.  I think that the preexisting catalog of prog music actually deters experimentation, as the originators did.  Should we be using even more unconventional instruments, like trombone, tuba, etc.?  Or different influences besides European musical forms?  Some bands do this and are quite successful at it.  
 
Here's a band from Spain (already in PA due to my suggestion) and a song from their debut album that I already mentioned earlier in this thread as an example of stunning retro-prog; a live and the studio version of one of their songs, both for your pleasure:
 
 
 
 
ONE OF THESE DAYS & Thee Heavy Random Tone Colour Lab
The word or instructions for taking opium on a roof
Live at Sala Mardigras (8th November 2013)
 
 
 
From the album A Peaceful Nacht In Hell

(2013)
 
 
p.s. I apologize to the forum moderators because I posted the embedded vids and also to the forum members who can not watch these vids, but It was stronger than me.
 
 
 


Edited by Svetonio - February 27 2015 at 01:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2015 at 23:23
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

How about a video to go w/it.
Done! Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2015 at 20:17
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Clapton, Page etc. just ripped 'em off and didn't even give the originators of the music their dues. 
 
For a blues snob, you seem rather light in the blues history department.
 
The history of blues composition is a history of cannibalism. Because of lax copyright laws from the 20s to the 60s, songs were retitled, lyrics were reworked or whole songs were simply taken by competing blues players. Are you aware how many times "House of the Rising Sun" had been played by the time The Animals got a hit out of it? I personally have versions by Georgia Turner, Ledbelly, Woody Guthrie and Nina Simone (and Frijid Pink as well!), and that is just the tip of the iceberg for a song that's been around since the 19th century. One of B.B. King's standards "Everyday I Have the Blues" was borrowed from Elmore James who got it from Memphis Slim. The song "Baby Please Don't Go" went through Big Joe Williams, Big Bill Broonzy, Lightnin' Hopkins and Muddy Waters before Van Morrison and Them made it a hit in the 60s.
 
And before Eric Clapton and Duane Allman jammed to "Key to the Hghway" there was the prime example of blues theft. Charlie Segar originally penned 'Key to the Highway', but Big Bill Broonzy somehow got credited along with Segar for writing the song, because, as Broonzy put it, "Some of the verses he [Segar] was singing" were the same as Broonzy had sung in the south. Broonzy then made the ultimate comment about blues music: "You take one song and make fifty out of it...just change it a little bit."
 
The only reason we talk about Page and Zeppelin's court settlement with Willie Dixon is that blues had become big money at last and copyright laws were tougher by the 60s and 70s. Before that, no one gave a damn who played what song because no one made a dime.
 
So, claiming Clapton was a rip-off is naïve in extremis. Actually, it was par for the course from the very beginning of blues.
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

No Stratocaster here, HoundDog preferred the cheapest electric he could find because it "sounded funky!"  He played a guitar from Sears. 
 
Look, just because Hound Dog played Tescos and Silvertones doesn't make him the prime blues guitarist. The man who Hound Dog looked up to and was most influenced by, Elmore James, played National and Kay guitars (not cheap Sears models by any means). Muddy Waters played a Gibson L-5 and Telecasters. B.B. King played Gibsons. Albert Collins played Telecasters. Albert King was famous for his Gibson flying V's. John Lee Hooker was an Epiphone man. No one wanted to play crappy guitars, and if they did, they bought better ones immediately when they could afford them (like every guitarist that wasn't born rich, including yours truly).

 
 
 
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to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2015 at 19:26
How about a video to go w/it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2015 at 19:22
Well, there was a prime example of the world's most pointless waste of thread-space. Just a link would have done.    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2015 at 19:17
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

(...)
 
P.S. By the same pretzel logic, the genre "progressive rock" occurred between 1969-1979 exclusively by musicians from London and Canterbury (and perhaps Luton) because they and only they had direct access to the European classical/folk motifs and middle/upper class British snobbery with the intent to strip rock of its blues background and graft this European classicism onto it. Americans need not apply and anyone starting their performing careers past 1980 ain't prog. Sorry, find another name.



I couldn't agree more. British were invented Symphonic rock as a sub-genre of Progressive rock as well; that was really great and only a madman can deny that, but Progressive rock was invented by Frank Zappa with Freak Out! the album i.e. the Progressive rock was invented in America; it's just a fact of the history of rock'n'roll.

p.s. Btw, as there are some people who will say that Freak Out! is "not prog", I can only to remind them of that bullsh*t dilemma whether the symph rock is really prog or not because it relies on Classical music.
(...) I agree with the fundamental historical assessment, but it's more a philosophical issue, really.  (...)

LOL If something is a historical fact, as it is the case with the Mothers of Invention's debut album, that can not be a "philosophical issue" at the same time.
If all we're talking about is Freak Out, then it's all historical, sure. But the thread is looking at how to best regard new stuff vis-a-vis the old. Again, I was basically agreeing with your post.
Yes, of course ... back on the thread .... Well, some people are argue that it is not possible today to record some stuff that is colloquially called retro-prog and to be good, and to be enjoyable to listening to, in the same way or almost the same enjoyable as when we are listening to ancient prog albums again and again. However, when I posted on this thread some great few examples, some people were silent and ignored these examples, just because these albums directly  and clearly indicates that they are absolutely wrong regarding the quality of that retro-prog in general! Apropos that "phenomenon", here's a great review of one magnificent retro-prog style album that I already took as an example of great retro-prog stuff in this thread earlier; that's actually the review of The Worm Ouroboros' Of Things That Never Were written by the Eclectic Team member Sagichim, and I hope that some people will enjoy to read that (while listening to THE masterpiece of retro-prog style) >>>

Of Things That Never Were
The Worm Ouroboros Eclectic Prog


Review by Sagichim
Collaborator Eclectic Prog Team

5 stars Every once in a while there comes a new band that manages to sweep me off my feet so easily, sometimes with an exceptional high level of playing, sometimes with a new and fascinating sound and sometimes with an out of the box kind of ideas. The Worm Ouroboros have simply done that with pure musical talent and a wise intellectual six sense, man this album is just down right beautiful and contains a few soaring moments that makes my heart skip a beat. It's one of those albums where it doesn't matter what the band is playing it just feels right and good, and it makes me even more amazed that I know it's their first album. It seems these young fellas have cracked the code and found the secret combination between simple melodies and tasty instrumental interplay. They have some kind of naive simplicity and modesty to their playing and arrangements that honestly not a lot of bands have.

But this is only part of the deal here. The Worm Ouroboros are a new band coming from Minsk Belarus, but they were playing since 2006 so they are not so new in playing together. One thing is for sure these guys have absorbed a lot of influences from the 70's prog scene, I think you'll be happy to find out there's a massive influence from the Canterbury scene/Prog Folk and symphonic prog, where I'm most reminded of Caravan, Camel and the playfulness of Moving Gelatine Plates. There's also some psychedelic overtones, nothing's too trippy but it is still there hovering above. Funk or should I say groove is another style that found its way into the mix, these guys can definitely swing when they need to. This meal wouldn't be perfect without a desert so this time the band is serving Zehul! Now I sure didn't see this coming! For those of you who doesn't like the classic Zehul shouldn't have any trouble with this, since it is still melodic and quite grooving. I can't say this album heavily rocks, it's not the point here, but I sure do love when they get that itch! As part of their intricate arrangements, they do feel the need of a rocking outburst every now and then, which gives another dimention to this wonderful band.

The album is centered around the quality interplay and song writing of Sergey Gvozdyukevich (vocals, keyboards, acoustic guitars, flute) and Vladimir Sobolevsky (electric and acoustic guitars). They are backed by the fantastic Alexey Zapolsky (bass) and Eugene Zarkhin (drums). The final touch of Vitaly Appow (reeds) completes the picture and adding a lot of depth to the arrangements, complementing everyone's playing.

There isn't any prog from the weird zone (at least for those of you who knows weird bands), Worm is focusing on beautiful melodies using a rich sound, nothing's sacchrine, not at all. There isn't any unique instrumentation, we've heard all of that already but for some reason it doesn't sound like your ordinary and plain 'ol flute, acoustic guitar and keys thing. The level of songwriting and simplicity takes those few notes to a higher level, it just works! the connection and interplay between the musicians is fabulous, I can easily put them into the 'I stunned you with 4 notes' club.

"L'Impasse Sainte Bérégonne" starts this journey with a weird and disturbing atmosphere. A huge bass and flute leads the way as it gets more intense and breaks with an excellent guitar solo, check out that fierce flute towards the end, that would make Ian Anderson think "why didn't I think of that?". The next "Shelieth" is totally different and shows what a brilliant musician Sergey Gvozdyukevich is, using all kinds of warm delicate keyboard sounds, he's very eclectic in his playing and in his sound choices, so this one sounds very diverse and refreshing, accompanied by a restrained but effective guitar playing. Man that melody in the closing part is simply gorgeous!!! and is weaved into the song so cleverly.

The band are including here a few short Folky instrumental interludes between the main songs, needless to say that every one of them is stunning in its own special way. I have to say this time it doesn't sound detached at all, on the contrary, it only adds to the overall feel of the album. My favourite one is "The Magi" with of course a beautiful acoustic guitar and flute, but what impresses me most here is the heavily accented vocals, so melodic, I love how he sings this one. "The Pear-Shaped Man" and my special favourite "Pirates in Pingaree" shows their outstanding song writing ideas. It doesn't matter where the song is heading they can easily turn you over with an amazing simple melody that would make you wanna weep in joyous happiness (Pirates in Pingaree).

"Soleil Noir" is calmer and focusing on vocals but it sure does gets much more intense towards the end, fabulous. "The Curfew" is the main surprise here although it is quite different harbouring pure Zehul elements it doesn't sound too far off at all but still keeping the line of the album, it only goes to show how brilliant and sophisticated this band really is. The deep bass and dark zehulic vocals lead the way here sounding like Weidorje, but not too long when they suddenly go funky! Oh yeah! "Return To The Cold Sea Of Nothing" is the final 10 minute epic, continuing the high level of playing by all members.

This is absolutely one of the most thrilling and promising modern albums I've come to hear, I think you'll find it a very easy and captivating listen. Definitely deserves the fifth star, HIGHLY RECOMMENDED, DON'T MISS OUT ON THIS ONE!




Edited by Svetonio - February 26 2015 at 23:24
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