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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 18:46 |
Reed Lover wrote:
Sweetnighter wrote:
. How can you judge that based on my saying, of all
miniscule things, that I thought Ged wrote all the Rush music instead
of Alex. Whoop-de-f**ken-do! That's not a testament of my character! Have you ever been wrong before?
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Frequently - so what?
I have had two discussions with you:
1. About Rush
2.About Politics.
You have made wild assumptions in both.You spend pages and pages
discussing a Libertarian Philosophy and taxation but never once
anticipated that the necessity to raise revenue somehow would raise its
head.Then it dawns on you-Oh dear I hadnt thought that
bit through.If this had been at the back of your mind you would
have already mentioned it or hinted at it.You are just winging this and
wasting my time. Your argument is an ill-thought out dog's dinner of immature fancy and other people's garbled quasi-philosphical ramblings.
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1) Saying that geddy lee wrote the music instead of alex is not a "wild
assumption," it was a mistake. Am I not allowed mistakes? After all,
the albums all say Music by Lee and Lifeson, Lyrics by Peart.
I've read one interview that was done with Lee and one with Peart
online before. So, naturally, from what I had read, I was under the
wrong impression. Oops! I'm a horrible person.
2) I've always been aware of
this problem in libertarian theory. Although I consider myself a
libertarian, that doesn't mean that I subscribe to everything the
libertarian party does. Do most Democrats agree with every stance the
party takes? Do Republicans? Assuredly some do, but not all. I use my mind when reading about politics. Yes, I agree with most stances the libertarian party takes, but not all. Plus, I outlined what I thought would be a good policy regarding taxes.
Maybe somebody else will voice an opinion, but you want to paint me off
as irrational and walk away satisfied with that. Have I really been
that irrational?
Edited by Sweetnighter
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 18:39 |
Sweetnighter wrote:
|
. How can you judge that based on my saying, of all miniscule things, that I thought Ged wrote all the Rush music instead of Alex. Whoop-de-f**ken-do! That's not a testament of my character! Have you ever been wrong before? [/QUOTE]
Frequently - so what?
I have had two discussions with you:
1. About Rush
2.About Politics.
You have made wild assumptions in both.You spend pages and pages discussing a Libertarian Philosophy and taxation but never once anticipated that the necessity to raise revenue somehow would raise its head.Then it dawns on you-Oh dear I hadnt thought that bit through.If this had been at the back of your mind you would have already mentioned it or hinted at it.You are just winging this and wasting my time. Your argument is an ill-thought out dog's dinner of immature fancy and other people's garbled quasi-philosphical ramblings.
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
|
Posted: February 16 2005 at 18:38 |
Reed Lover wrote:
Please, where in the hell
is that perfect Utopia? When will it come? More than 200 years have
passed since Marx and Engels wrote their books and still there is not a
perfect socialist nation.So what? Name a perfect nation of any description!
  I LOVE THIS LINE!!! (Although the communist manifesto was written 1847, putting it more in the 150 year range) Try
and think for yourself lad.The "line" as you call it is irrelevant.You
might as well say "people have been making music for thousands of
years-so where is that perfect piece" Utter twaddle!!
I doubt there are many
who dont realise that the Communist Manifesto was "of its time" and so
irrelevant to these times. As a response to the status quo of its era
it was radical to say the least-but why do you guys hold it up and say
"there-Communism doesnt work,ergo you are foolish"? I dont give a flying fig for communism and communists, they are as bad as the right-wingers. Who
says that all socialist principles cant work? You are not seriously
telling me that there are any countries out there operating on purely
Marxist philosophy? You might as well say all Christians live perfect,
spiritual lives. it aint happening and never will. Just because there
are chancers all over the world playing havoc with there countries
economies in the name of marxism, does not make them Marxists or
socialists-or human beings for that matter.
|
Actually, yeah, where IS that perfect piece of music? Oh wait, I already own Close to the Edge...
As stunning as this may be, I don't think anything can be perfect. So
no, there is no "perfect" piece of music nor is there a perfect
society. We are living in reality, you know.
You're making a straw man argument as well. I criticized communist theory with that statement, not socialism.
Yeah sure, there are democratic socialist systems all over the place,
Europe, US, Japan, you name it. They're not bad, I just personally feel
that they need adjustments... those adjustments being more focus on the
democracy and less on the socialism.
For my sake, make yourself clear: what are your feelings regarding Communism and your feelings regarding Socialism; how do they differ?
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
|
Posted: February 16 2005 at 18:30 |
Please, where in the hell is that perfect Utopia? When will it come? More than 200 years have passed since Marx and Engels wrote their books and still there is not a perfect socialist nation.So what? Name a perfect nation of any description!
  I LOVE THIS LINE!!! (Although the communist manifesto was written 1847, putting it more in the 150 year range) Try and think for yourself lad.The "line" as you call it is irrelevant.You might as well say "people have been making music for thousands of years-so where is that perfect piece" Utter twaddle!!
I doubt there are many who dont realise that the Communist Manifesto was "of its time" and so irrelevant to these times. As a response to the status quo of its era it was radical to say the least-but why do you guys hold it up and say "there-Communism doesnt work,ergo you are foolish"? I dont give a flying fig for communism and communists, they are as bad as the right-wingers. Who says that all socialist principles cant work? You are not seriously telling me that there are any countries out there operating on purely Marxist philosophy? You might as well say all Christians live perfect, spiritual lives. it aint happening and never will. Just because there are chancers all over the world playing havoc with there countries economies in the name of marxism, does not make them Marxists or socialists-or human beings for that matter.
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 18:29 |
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
|
 |
tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 18:28 |
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 18:27 |
Reed Lover wrote:
Sweetnighter wrote:
Reed Lover wrote:
Sweetnighter wrote:
Reed Lover wrote:
Sweetnighter wrote:
If socialists/communists care so much about
others why don't they get out there and lead by example and help people
instead of clamoring for governments and their armies to steal money
from those who have rightfully earned it? |
How the heck do you know we dont?
I shall be more clear. The socialist movement revolves
around pointing to the wealth of others and claiming it as their own,
and sequentially clamoring for more powerful forces to take that wealth
for them. I'm sure many socialists are active in their communities, and
I commend them for that, but its more a criticism of the movement in
general. Take Christians. Although I'm an atheist, I praise Christian
activists for going out and doing the dirty work themselves rather than
socialists who expect others to do it for them and then somehow call
themselves morally superior human beings.
This
is just stream-of-concious nonesense. I dont know where this is coming
from-it has no basis in fact in my experiences.Gross
generalisation based on the premise: "what I think is what I
know." I know it is not the same but do you remember saying Geddy Lee
writes all Rush's music-well this is another of your
fanciful,under-researched, verbal technicolor-yawns!
Oh give
me a break. I'm wrong once, so I'm wrong always? Not to mention that
who writes Rush's music is an entirely different topic from political
philosophy.
But
it does point to the fact that you are prone to making your mind up
without researching too deeply! Not the same as political philosophy
but a useful guide to your personality.
Tell me Sweetsh*ter,how on earth does the government get money to run itself and the infrastructure of the country?
Taking money from big business
of course! This is why socialism is self-destructive. As Iván said,
after to socialists took over in Peru it was just a matter of time
until the economy was sucked dry. After you steal the wealth of the
rich, where does the money come from? Union run industries? I don't
think so. As Iván said, they're ineffective. Look to the Soviet Union
as another example of how this worked... and I'm talking about before Stalinist dictatorship! This problem became evident during Lenin's years.
Leave it to big business? Oh yes, they have a great record when left to their own devices dont they? Environment,unemployment issues= profitability issues!
Oh, but the government doesn't!
Don't make me laugh. At least when one organization is mismanaged it
goes out of business! Government can't "go out of business" and
therefore has no need to be fiscally responsible.
|
|
So Sweetnighter-how do you pay for the running of a country?
This stumbling block seems to have eluded you.
|
Well, although Libertarians hate to admit it, I have to be realistic- some taxation
is a necessary evil. But what kind of taxation? I would have a
hierarchy of forms of taxation- which are most tolerable, which aren't.
I think the "best" form of taxation is in the form of low tariffs. Not
protective tariffs, but tariffs simply for revenue purposes. Then I
would say sales tax is moderately tolerable. As a libertarian, I am
vehemently opposed to income tax and property tax. I am opposed
to this form of taxation because it taxes the individual too many
times: getting taxed for making money, getting taxed for existing on a
plot of land, and then getting taxed again when you go to the store? At
some point there tax simply becomes a guise for theft. As I know I'll
get this response, a system consisting of tariffs and sales tax WILL
work for a LOW BUDGET government- a government that isn't cashing out
to special interests and hundreds of ineffective social programs.
Truth be told this is an issue I'm not very sure about myself, and
seems to be a big gap in libertarian political theory. Good question...
and thank you for asking it respectfully too by the way.
|
Truth be told this is an issue I'm not very sure about myself, and seems to be a big gap in libertarian political theory.
Your whole argument fails on exactly this. You dont think things through do you?
Good question... and thank you for asking it respectfully too by the way.
It is not a matter of respect-it is a way of trying to elicit passion from you-patronising, but hey:that's me!
|
I do think things through! I just happen to be honest about what I
believe, honest about what I'm not sure about, realistic, and
pragmatic. I know for a fact that I believe that utopian political
philosophies fall flat on their faces, as history attests. And no, my
whole argument does not falter on that one singular point. I was being
honest about what I believed; lets say I came straight out and said
yeah! libertarianism works as long as there is some sort of taxation.
Is there something wrong with that? No. Finally, I'll take back my
thank you for being respectful. Its of very low demeanor to say that
not thinking things through is a part of my personality or character.
How can you judge that based on my saying, of all miniscule things,
that I thought Ged wrote all the Rush music instead of Alex.
Whoop-de-f**ken-do! That's not a testament of my character! Have you
ever been wrong before?
|
I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
|
 |
Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
|
Posted: February 16 2005 at 18:19 |
Sweetnighter wrote:
Reed Lover wrote:
Sweetnighter wrote:
Reed Lover wrote:
Sweetnighter wrote:
If socialists/communists care so much about others why don't they get out there and lead by example and help people instead of clamoring for governments and their armies to steal money from those who have rightfully earned it? |
How the heck do you know we dont?
I shall be more clear. The socialist movement revolves around pointing to the wealth of others and claiming it as their own, and sequentially clamoring for more powerful forces to take that wealth for them. I'm sure many socialists are active in their communities, and I commend them for that, but its more a criticism of the movement in general. Take Christians. Although I'm an atheist, I praise Christian activists for going out and doing the dirty work themselves rather than socialists who expect others to do it for them and then somehow call themselves morally superior human beings.
This is just stream-of-concious nonesense. I dont know where this is coming from-it has no basis in fact in my experiences.Gross generalisation based on the premise: "what I think is what I know." I know it is not the same but do you remember saying Geddy Lee writes all Rush's music-well this is another of your fanciful,under-researched, verbal technicolor-yawns!
Oh give me a break. I'm wrong once, so I'm wrong always? Not to mention that who writes Rush's music is an entirely different topic from political philosophy.
But it does point to the fact that you are prone to making your mind up without researching too deeply! Not the same as political philosophy but a useful guide to your personality.
Tell me Sweetsh*ter,how on earth does the government get money to run itself and the infrastructure of the country?
Taking money from big business of course! This is why socialism is self-destructive. As Iván said, after to socialists took over in Peru it was just a matter of time until the economy was sucked dry. After you steal the wealth of the rich, where does the money come from? Union run industries? I don't think so. As Iván said, they're ineffective. Look to the Soviet Union as another example of how this worked... and I'm talking about before Stalinist dictatorship! This problem became evident during Lenin's years.
Leave it to big business? Oh yes, they have a great record when left to their own devices dont they? Environment,unemployment issues= profitability issues!
Oh, but the government doesn't! Don't make me laugh. At least when one organization is mismanaged it goes out of business! Government can't "go out of business" and therefore has no need to be fiscally responsible.
|
|
So Sweetnighter-how do you pay for the running of a country?
This stumbling block seems to have eluded you.
|
Well, although Libertarians hate to admit it, I have to be realistic- some taxation is a necessary evil. But what kind of taxation? I would have a hierarchy of forms of taxation- which are most tolerable, which aren't. I think the "best" form of taxation is in the form of low tariffs. Not protective tariffs, but tariffs simply for revenue purposes. Then I would say sales tax is moderately tolerable. As a libertarian, I am vehemently opposed to income tax and property tax. I am opposed to this form of taxation because it taxes the individual too many times: getting taxed for making money, getting taxed for existing on a plot of land, and then getting taxed again when you go to the store? At some point there tax simply becomes a guise for theft. As I know I'll get this response, a system consisting of tariffs and sales tax WILL work for a LOW BUDGET government- a government that isn't cashing out to special interests and hundreds of ineffective social programs. Truth be told this is an issue I'm not very sure about myself, and seems to be a big gap in libertarian political theory. Good question... and thank you for asking it respectfully too by the way.
|
Truth be told this is an issue I'm not very sure about myself, and seems to be a big gap in libertarian political theory.
Your whole argument fails on exactly this. You dont think things through do you?
Good question... and thank you for asking it respectfully too by the way.
It is not a matter of respect-it is a way of trying to elicit passion from you-patronising, but hey:that's me!
|
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 |
Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
|
Posted: February 16 2005 at 18:14 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
Szygy said:
If a communist system was freely chosen by the populace of a stable country, |
Then if it's so perfect why nobody votes for them? Mao Tse Tung said
it clearly, Power is born from the weapons, that's the most common way
communists get the power because they are sure they will loose in clean
elections or simply they believe they do it for the people but without
their approval.
I do not know about any socialist state, there never has been a such a state, |
Perú had 2 Socialist Governments:
- Juan Velazco Alvarado: 1968 - 1975
- Alan García Perez (Social Democracy): 1985 - 1990
Other Countries
- Nicaragua: The Sandinist Governments
- Chile: Salvador Allende 1971: I don't justify the criminal
Pinochet, but Allende was going to fall anyway because his Government
was a mess, all the factions of the Socialist movement were already
divided because each one wanted more power, they changed Economic
Imperialism for State Imperialism.
- Cuba: 1958 - 1999: Called Socialist but really Communist
- Venezuela: The actual Government
- Mexico: The PRI has been the only party in the Government for I believe more than half a Century, they are Social Democrats.
Various quotes:
- I state that all opressive regimes can't be communistic. A true socialist/communist (also true for Christian, and most other religions) will not be oppressive, it's against everything they stand for.
- Like I said before there hasn't been a true communistic state before, and it probably will never happen
- I question Labours socialist credentials. Believe me I'm no
Tory!! But when the Labour party abolished Clause 4 of their
constitution, which commited the party to public ownership of servies, THAT was the beginning of the death of Socialism in this country.
|
It's the same story I been listening since I entered to the
University in 1979, and probably the same stories that have been told
since Marx and Engles started writing:
- "The Perfect Socialism will work"
- "USSR was not a comminuist country, was an Imperialist natoion (some otrhers considered them as State Capitalism),"
- "China is not a real Communist Regime"
- "Communism and Socialist natuion don't succeed because the western nations deon't allow them.
- The corruption of Socialist leaders is not the fault of the system.
Please, where in the hell is that perfect Utopia?
When will it come? More than 200 years have passed since Marx and
Engels wrote their books and still there is not a perfect socialist
nation.
  I LOVE THIS LINE!!! (Although the communist manifesto was written 1847, putting it more in the 150 year range)
Everybody says Cuba has an oppressive Government but all the
Socialist Associations and Governments have awarded Fidel Castro for
his achievements, why didn't they spoke when Valladares was sent to
jail because he dared to be a poet, or why didn't they said a word when
Castro opened the prisons and sent all the criminals to the Peruvian
Embassy or even when all the gays were sentenced to life imprissonment?
Some people here criticize Bush for giving opinions about what is
best for other countries, but some of you do the same thing because you
want to convince us that Socialism is our option.
I live in a world of reality, when this fantasy turns true then start to say it may be convinient for YOUR COUNTRIES. We live here and we know what is best for us.
Iván |
   
|
I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
|
 |
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: February 16 2005 at 18:12 |
So what is best for you Ivan?
Be careful you might get what you wish for....... |
I've been member of the Social Christian party until 1983, I still believe in their ideology but not in the actual leaders.
But what I really want:
- A real democracy and a free market system where the state has progressively less influence (When the market works the state regulations are unnecessary Ronald H Coase Nobel Prize in Economy 1991).
- A normal and fair tax system
- A system that allows the people who has the knowledge and capacity receive the proper salary without any limit, in the moment you limit human aspirations you kill a society.
- That all the people from the rich countries stop saying what is better for us, let us choose and even make our own mistakes.
- Equal opportunities for everybody, (Not equal salary or equal way of life) if you use well that opportunity, get what you want and if you waste it don’t ask the Government for something.
- A working social security system for the elder and challenged people, not for all the bumps who don't work because they prefer a state that provides them of their needs.
Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
|
Posted: February 16 2005 at 18:10 |
Reed Lover wrote:
Sweetnighter wrote:
Reed Lover wrote:
Sweetnighter wrote:
If socialists/communists care so much about
others why don't they get out there and lead by example and help people
instead of clamoring for governments and their armies to steal money
from those who have rightfully earned it? |
How the heck do you know we dont?
I shall be more clear. The socialist movement revolves
around pointing to the wealth of others and claiming it as their own,
and sequentially clamoring for more powerful forces to take that wealth
for them. I'm sure many socialists are active in their communities, and
I commend them for that, but its more a criticism of the movement in
general. Take Christians. Although I'm an atheist, I praise Christian
activists for going out and doing the dirty work themselves rather than
socialists who expect others to do it for them and then somehow call
themselves morally superior human beings.
This
is just stream-of-concious nonesense. I dont know where this is coming
from-it has no basis in fact in my experiences.Gross
generalisation based on the premise: "what I think is what I
know." I know it is not the same but do you remember saying Geddy Lee
writes all Rush's music-well this is another of your
fanciful,under-researched, verbal technicolor-yawns!
Oh give
me a break. I'm wrong once, so I'm wrong always? Not to mention that
who writes Rush's music is an entirely different topic from political
philosophy.
Tell me Sweetsh*ter,how on earth does the government get money to run itself and the infrastructure of the country?
Taking money from big business
of course! This is why socialism is self-destructive. As Iván said,
after to socialists took over in Peru it was just a matter of time
until the economy was sucked dry. After you steal the wealth of the
rich, where does the money come from? Union run industries? I don't
think so. As Iván said, they're ineffective. Look to the Soviet Union
as another example of how this worked... and I'm talking about before Stalinist dictatorship! This problem became evident during Lenin's years.
Leave it to big business? Oh yes, they have a great record when left to their own devices dont they? Environment,unemployment issues= profitability issues!
Oh, but the government doesn't!
Don't make me laugh. At least when one organization is mismanaged it
goes out of business! Government can't "go out of business" and
therefore has no need to be fiscally responsible.
|
|
So Sweetnighter-how do you pay for the running of a country?
This stumbling block seems to have eluded you. |
Well, although Libertarians hate to admit it, I have to be realistic- some taxation
is a necessary evil. But what kind of taxation? I would have a
hierarchy of forms of taxation- which are most tolerable, which aren't.
I think the "best" form of taxation is in the form of low tariffs. Not
protective tariffs, but tariffs simply for revenue purposes. Then I
would say sales tax is moderately tolerable. As a libertarian, I am
vehemently opposed to income tax and property tax. I am opposed
to this form of taxation because it taxes the individual too many
times: getting taxed for making money, getting taxed for existing on a
plot of land, and then getting taxed again when you go to the store? At
some point there tax simply becomes a guise for theft. As I know I'll
get this response, a system consisting of tariffs and sales tax WILL
work for a LOW BUDGET government- a government that isn't cashing out
to special interests and hundreds of ineffective social programs. Truth
be told this is an issue I'm not very sure about myself, and seems to
be a big gap in libertarian political theory. Good question... and
thank you for asking it respectfully too by the way.
|
I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
|
 |
Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
|
Posted: February 16 2005 at 17:58 |
So what is best for you Ivan?
Be careful you might get what you wish for.......
|
|
 |
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: February 16 2005 at 17:56 |
Szygy said:
If a communist system was freely chosen by the populace of a stable country, |
Then if it's so perfect why nobody votes for them? Mao Tse Tung said it clearly, Power is born from the weapons, that's the most common way communists get the power because they are sure they will loose in clean elections or simply they believe they do it for the people but without their approval.
I do not know about any socialist state, there never has been a such a state, |
Perú had 2 Socialist Governments:
- Juan Velazco Alvarado: 1968 - 1975
- Alan García Perez (Social Democracy): 1985 - 1990
Other Countries
- Nicaragua: The Sandinist Governments
- Chile: Salvador Allende 1971: I don't justify the criminal Pinochet, but Allende was going to fall anyway because his Government was a mess, all the factions of the Socialist movement were already divided because each one wanted more power, they changed Economic Imperialism for State Imperialism.
- Cuba: 1958 - 1999: Called Socialist but really Communist
- Venezuela: The actual Government
- Mexico: The PRI has been the only party in the Government for I believe more than half a Century, they are Social Democrats.
Various quotes:
- I state that all opressive regimes can't be communistic. A true socialist/communist (also true for Christian, and most other religions) will not be oppressive, it's against everything they stand for.
- Like I said before there hasn't been a true communistic state before, and it probably will never happen
- I question Labours socialist credentials. Believe me I'm no Tory!! But when the Labour party abolished Clause 4 of their constitution, which commited the party to public ownership of servies, THAT was the beginning of the death of Socialism in this country.
|
It's the same story I been listening since I entered to the University in 1979, and probably the same stories that have been told since Marx and Engles started writing:
- "The Perfect Socialism will work"
- "USSR was not a comminuist country, was an Imperialist natoion (some otrhers considered them as State Capitalism),"
- "China is not a real Communist Regime"
- "Communism and Socialist natuion don't succeed because the western nations deon't allow them.
- The corruption of Socialist leaders is not the fault of the system.
Please, where in the hell is that perfect Utopia? When will it come? Almost 200 years have passed since Marx and Engels wrote their books and still there is not a perfect socialist nation.
Everybody says Cuba has an oppressive Government but all the Socialist Associations and Governments have awarded Fidel Castro for his achievements, why didn't they spoke when Valladares was sent to jail because he dared to be a poet, or why didn't they said a word when Castro opened the prisons and sent all the criminals to the Peruvian Embassy or even when all the gays were sentenced to life imprissonment?
Some people here criticize Bush for giving opinions about what is best for other countries, but some of you do the same thing because you want to convince us that Socialism is our option.
I live in a world of reality, when this fantasy turns true then start to say it may be convinient for YOUR COUNTRIES. We live here and we know what is best for us.
Iván
Edited: Placed more than 200 years when it's really almost 200 years, because Marx started witting in 1836 and the term Communism was used already in 1842, but the idea of Communism is older than Marx and Engels, so the 200 years is not too far.
Edited by ivan_2068
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 17:40 |
Sweetnighter wrote:
Reed Lover wrote:
Sweetnighter wrote:
If socialists/communists care so much about others why don't they get out there and lead by example and help people instead of clamoring for governments and their armies to steal money from those who have rightfully earned it? |
How the heck do you know we dont?
I shall be more clear. The socialist movement revolves around pointing to the wealth of others and claiming it as their own, and sequentially clamoring for more powerful forces to take that wealth for them. I'm sure many socialists are active in their communities, and I commend them for that, but its more a criticism of the movement in general. Take Christians. Although I'm an atheist, I praise Christian activists for going out and doing the dirty work themselves rather than socialists who expect others to do it for them and then somehow call themselves morally superior human beings.
This is just stream-of-concious nonesense. I dont know where this is coming from-it has no basis in fact in my experiences.Gross generalisation based on the premise: "what I think is what I know." I know it is not the same but do you remember saying Geddy Lee writes all Rush's music-well this is another of your fanciful,under-researched, verbal technicolor-yawns!
Tell me Sweetsh*ter,how on earth does the government get money to run itself and the infrastructure of the country?
Taking money from big business of course! This is why socialism is self-destructive. As Iván said, after to socialists took over in Peru it was just a matter of time until the economy was sucked dry. After you steal the wealth of the rich, where does the money come from? Union run industries? I don't think so. As Iván said, they're ineffective. Look to the Soviet Union as another example of how this worked... and I'm talking about before Stalinist dictatorship! This problem became evident during Lenin's years.
Leave it to big business? Oh yes, they have a great record when left to their own devices dont they? Environment,unemployment issues= profitability issues!
Oh, but the government doesn't! Don't make me laugh. At least when one organization is mismanaged it goes out of business! Government can't "go out of business" and therefore has no need to be fiscally responsible.
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So Sweetnighter-how do you pay for the running of a country?
This stumbling block seems to have eluded you.
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 17:23 |
Reed Lover wrote:
Sweetnighter wrote:
If socialists/communists
care so much about others why don't they get out there and lead by
example and help people instead of clamoring for governments and their
armies to steal money from those who have rightfully earned it?
|
How the heck do you know we dont?
I shall be more clear. The socialist movement revolves
around pointing to the wealth of others and claiming it as their own,
and sequentially clamoring for more powerful forces to take that wealth
for them. I'm sure many socialists are active in their communities, and
I commend them for that, but its more a criticism of the movement in
general. Take Christians. Although I'm an atheist, I praise Christian
activists for going out and doing the dirty work themselves rather than
socialists who expect others to do it for them and then somehow call
themselves morally superior human beings.
Tell me Sweetsh*ter,how on earth does the government get money to run itself and the infrastructure of the country?
Taking money from big business
of course! This is why socialism is self-destructive. As Iván said,
after to socialists took over in Peru it was just a matter of time
until the economy was sucked dry. After you steal the wealth of the
rich, where does the money come from? Union run industries? I don't
think so. As Iván said, they're ineffective. Look to the Soviet Union
as another example of how this worked... and I'm talking about before Stalinist dictatorship! This problem became evident during Lenin's years.
Leave it to big business? Oh yes, they have a great record when left to their own devices dont they? Environment,unemployment issues= profitability issues!
Oh, but the government doesn't!
Don't make me laugh. At least when one organization is mismanaged it
goes out of business! Government can't "go out of business" and
therefore has no need to be fiscally responsible.
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 16:53 |
Sweetnighter wrote:
If socialists/communists care so much about others why don't they get out there and lead by example and help people instead of clamoring for governments and their armies to steal money from those who have rightfully earned it? |
How the heck do you know we dont?
Tell me Sweetsh*ter,how on earth does the government get money to run itself and the infrastructure of the country? Leave it to big business? Oh yes, they have a great record when left to their own devices dont they? Environment,unemployment issues= profitability issues!
Edited by Reed Lover
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 16:44 |
If socialists/communists care so much about others why don't they get
out there and lead by example and help people instead of clamoring for
governments and their armies to steal money from those who have
rightfully earned it?
|
I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 15:55 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
Tuxon, you're talking from the comfortof the Netherlands about the situation of countries you know nothing about except by text books or maybe touristic visits.
Luckily I live in a country that almost havent got poverty
Our countries can't survice without investors from other countries, and the word Socialism scares todeath those investors.
For obvious reasons major investors are scared about socialism, this means sharing of their wealth, but their not clever enough to make that an advantage, rich people have more money to spend than poor people, so by making poor countries richer, the market increases and more money can be made. I'm not against making profit, I just believe that if profits are more equally distributed amongst the people, the profit will be higher.
There have been Socialist regimes in Perú, Bolivia, Chile, Ecuador, Nicaragua, etc and all had to give a step back because it doesn't work, true socialism is an utopic system, a dream within a dream.
I do not know about any socialist state, there never has been a such a state, the few attempts that were made, where seen as a threath to the western world and therefor boycotted and forced to war by America, South Africa or other western imperialistic forces.
Fidel Castro is the symbol of everything that's bad in Cuba, all the intellectuals of Cuba and Latin America saw him as a heroe, but after he imprissoned all those who didn't thought like him, they changed their minds. Peruvian Writter Mario Vargas Llosa wentto live the Revolution in Cuba, but after he saw the faillure it was he came back to Perú and founded an ultra Liberal Political Party.
I never thought of Cuba as a communistic state, freedom of choice, and the freedom to disagree with the leaders where not really encouraged, oppression is not a part of true communism. But Cuba has never got the chance to make it happen also, America isolated Cuba from the rest of the world, forcing them in the arms of the fascistic Sovjet Union.
Juan Velazco Alvarado (The socialist President of Perú) was a mess, but he was honest, not corrupt at all (His wife and some ministers becamecorrupt), he believed in Socialism, he gave the lands to the workers, but those workers weren't able to manage the farms in a productive way, they ate the resources in six months and destroyes what had worked perfectly for 150 years. He gave the newspapers to the workers, theylost all the sponsoring and he had to raise taxes to save the TV channels.
His perfect Socialism destroyed the fisghing industry, destroyed the big factories giving the management to the workers who weren't able to do that job, when a machine stopped to work, even because the mosr stupid and simple problem it was thrown away and with that many workers who oiperated those machines.
Perfect socialism would incorporate the many differences among the workers, and utilise their potential to the fullest, some people are graet managers, others are good craftsman, everyone has some capacities that can be used to make the work better and easier for all.
Perú had to start to import potatoes and sugar because the inefficient system destroyed our main natural product, As you know Potatoe ís native from Perú and sugar was one of our best products, and we had to buy them from Czecoeslovaquia, it was ridiculous.
There's not a single country in the world where Socialism really works for long periods, free market and Democracy are the only way, as Churchill said Democracy is a bad system, but works better than all the others.
Communism is not against Democracy, in fact democracy is the cornerstone for communist views, everyone has a say. Free market is not a problem also, I'm very much in favour of that.
Communism proved to be a faillure, they had to give astep back and free eastern countries in a terrible state, now thanks to the Communist system those countries are 50 years behind the rest of the world. So if real socialism and/or Communism really works, I don't know where.
Like I said before there hasn't been a true communistic state before, and it probably will never happen. The former Sovjet Union had a ruling class, there was no free speach, the poor where opressed, that's not communism, that was fascism. they just named it communism.
Keep dreaming with the perfect socialist system, but man can't be changed, man is greedy it's his nature, everybody wants profit and almost everybody has a price (I don't, that's why I barely survive even though I'm a hell of a lawyer), so the perfect system won't work unless you change the nature of man, and that my friend is absolutely impossible.
so true 
You mention Chistianity and other Religions, but Christ said, "There will be poor always".
Yes he did, but that's because we the people fail in our responsibilities towards God and our fellow men. After the verse, "There will always be poor people in the land," we find this: "Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." (Deut. 15:11)
Iván
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I understand (a little) what your problem with so-called socialism is, but that isn't real socialism.
I will always be an Utopist, and I know it is Utopian to believe in the good in men, but I just do.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7109
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 15:16 |
Fair comment, Ivan, but please don't assume that a critique of a particular branch of capitalist ideology necessarily equates with a blanket approval of Soviet style socialism. Incompetent and corrupt governments are not limited to one ideology or another.
As for the failure of communism - it has only ever been imposed on a people via a violent revolution or a coup d'etat, and systems imposed in that way never succeed. If a communist system was freely chosen by the populace of a stable country, who knows how it would work? (before being declared part of the Axis of Evil and nuked to oblivion of course)
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 15:08 |
Tuxon, you're talking from the comfortof the Netherklands about the situation of countries you know nothing about except by text books or maybe touristic visits.
Our countries can't survice without investors from other countries, and the word Socialism scares todeath those investors.
There have been Socialist regimes in Perú, Bolivia, Chile, Ecuador, Nicaragua, etc and all had to give a step back because it doesn't work, true socialism is an utopic system, a dream within a dream.
Fidel Castro is the symbol of everything that's bad in Cuba, all the intellectuals of Cuba and Latin America saw him as a heroe, but after he imprissoned all those who didn't thought like him, they changed their minds. Peruvian Writter Mario Vargas Llosa wentto live the Revolution in Cuba, but after he saw the faillure it was he came back to Perú and founded an ultra Liberal Political Party.
Juan Velazco Alvarado (The socialist President of Perú) was a mess, but he was honest, not corrupt at all (His wife and some ministers becamecorrupt), he believed in Socialism, he gave the lands to the workers, but those workers weren't able to manage the farms in a productive way, they ate the resources in six months and destroyes what had worked perfectly for 150 years. He gave the newspapers to the workers, theylost all the sponsoring and he had to raise taxes to save the TV channels.
His perfect Socialism destroyed the fisghing industry, destroyed the big factories giving the management to the workers who weren't able to do that job, when a machine stopped to work, even because the mosr stupid and simple problem it was thrown away and with that many workers who oiperated those machines.
Perú had to start to import potatoes and sugar because the inefficient system destroyed our main natural product, As you know Potatoe ís native from Perú and sugar was one of our best products, and we had to buy them from Czecoeslovaquia, it was ridiculous.
There's not a single country in the world where Socialism really works for long periods, free market and Democracy are the only way, as Churchill said Democracy is a bad system, but works better than all the others.
Communism proved to be a faillure, they had to give astep back and free eastern countries in a terrible state, now thanks to the Communist system those countries are 50 years behind the rest of the world. So if real socialism and/or Communism really works, I don't know where.
Keep dreaming with the perfect socialist system, but man can't be changed, man is greedy it's his nature, everybody wants profit and almost everybody has a price (I don't, that's why I barely survive even though I'm a hell of a lawyer), so the perfect system won't work unless you change the nature of man, and that my friend is absolutely impossible.
You mention Chistianity and other Religions, but Christ said, "There will be poor always".
Iván
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