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Posted: August 28 2015 at 04:06
Sean Trane wrote:
Yup, again, as an atheist, I will claim my atheism as "Darwin & Big Bang" to give a quick description to avoid further debate with those I don't want to engage in such a subject, but I don't even "believe" in those theories (which is what they are... just like religions are theories as well).
Ah, no. While I agree with the jist of what you are saying I will have to pull you up on the idea that scientific theories are "just like religions are theories as well": That is two different uses of the word "theories" with completely different meanings.
Scientific theories (such as Darwin's theory of evolution or Einstein's theory of relativity) are models that work for all known data. There are three key distinctions between scientific theories and everyday theories: the first is that they are falsifiable - it is possible that new data can prove a theory to be false so that it will have to be discarded or modified to fit the new data; the second is they based upon general principles that are independent of thing being explained; and the third is that they can be used to make predictions that can be tested (i.e. through experimentation and observation). There is no requirement to "believe in" a scientific theory since it is just a model that explains a set of data, we can use the theories to make things that work (such as using quantum theory to make transistors and other semiconductors) without having to believe in them.
In the secular word we can contrast that with the theory of music, which is a set of principles on which the practice of music is based. Music theory is not a scientific theory because music exists that "breaks the rules" so the theory does not fit all known data therefore it has been falsified in the scientific sense.
Religious beliefs are theoretical in a different sense in that they cannot be proven to be true, and so by virtue of that cannot be proven to be false (i.e. they are not falsifiable), they are also dependent upon the thing being explained (i.e., a deity or set of beliefs) and cannot be tested.
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Posted: August 28 2015 at 03:11
SteveG wrote:
This thread was not posted for secular music, which is devoid of any spiritual or supernatural references, but actually to music that is critical of religions, dogmas and the like.
That's not necessarily atheist music since religious music can (in theory) be critical of other religions and/or beliefs, however unlikely that is for fear of being tagged anti-semitic, isalmaphobic or just sectarian.
SteveG wrote:
Instrumental New Age music is secular.
Then all instrumental music would be secular, which is debatable. Music written for a spiritual purpose would not necessarily be secular, for example there are many pieces of (christian) sacred instrumental music, such as Mozart's Church Sonatas, that are non-secular. By that argument then New Age music written for spiritual ends, such as for meditation, would be non-secular.
SteveG wrote:
The Hangman and the Papist by Strawbs (always loved Wakeman's organ in this one) is not.
Joined: April 29 2004
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Posted: August 28 2015 at 02:49
Dean wrote:
Except in circumstances where the lyrics of the music are overly proselytising, I would imagine that most atheists are both receptive to, and tolerant of, religious music so "Music for Atheists" would be better described as just "Music".
couldn't have said it better myself, thanks Dean
Yes, though I don't listen much to gospel music (actually none at all, but I won't shy away from it either), Christian rock is a little difficult for me to accept as a valid musical "genre" (I mean this ranges from extreme metal to country-rock), but I will shy away from it, because of its proselytism... Not that I fear for a second I would be recruited, but just because this "spread the good words" idiocy just annoys the "hell" out of me. I mean, can't religious pêople not relate to themselves and the fact that they must "believe" in something just to fill the void they feel and fear??
Dean wrote:
However, I doubt that is what Steve is looking for here (hence my earlier post of Tim Minchin's comedic anti-theist ditties - though whether any of those actually fit the requirement is debatable), but as Hugues rightly says, atheists don't have (spiritual) beliefs, nor do they slavishly believe in science as some theists would claim. Even if we cite Banco's "Darwin!", this isn't an album of atheist music since evolution as a scientific principle is supported by many religious groups.
Yup, again, as an atheist, I will claim my atheism as "Darwin & Big Bang" to give a quick description to avoid further debate with those I don't want to engage in such a subject, but I don't even "believe" in those theories (which is what they are... just like religions are theories as well).
I "know" some "facts": the universe is infinte and expanding uncontrollably, and every living animal creature has (for those who have them) two eyes, one mouth, one heart, etc... So it's quite obvious (to moi, anyway) that we come from the same cell and share most of our ADN with rhinoceros and sharks and ants.
Never needed to go to Uni to understand that, but I will still thank Charles for standing alone against all to sustain his works.
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Posted: August 27 2015 at 14:49
Svetonio wrote:
With Marshall Tito, the heroic son not even Hell shall stop us. We raise our foreheads, we walk boldly and clench our fists hard.
Of an ancient kindred we are, but Goths we are not Part of ancient Slavdom are we. Whoever says otherwise slanders and lies, will feel our fist.
All the fingers upon our hands, through misery and suffering The Partisans awareness has created. And now when we should, to the sun, to the sky, We raise our fists high.
With Marshal Tito, the communists song from Tito's Yugoslavia
Replacing Tito for God makes perfect sense. But what do you have against the Goths? Still battling over something that happened in the 5th century?
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Posted: August 27 2015 at 14:43
I can't quote Dean because for some strange reason, I can't navigate on this thread as it's too spam heavy. Time for a trip to the PC doctor I guess, but back to the topic.
This thread was not posted for secular music, which is devoid of any spiritual or supernatural references, but actually to music that is critical of religions, dogmas and the like. Instrumental New Age music is secular. The Hangman and the Papist by Strawbs (always loved Wakeman's organ in this one) is not.
"With Marshall Tito, the heroic son not even Hell shall stop us" sounds similar to "And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (In my country in communist times you can think Klement Gottwald here)
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Posted: August 27 2015 at 13:50
With Marshall Tito, the heroic son not even Hell shall stop us. We raise our foreheads, we walk boldly and clench our fists hard.
Of an ancient kindred we are, but Goths we are not Part of ancient Slavdom are we. Whoever says otherwise slanders and lies, will feel our fist.
All the fingers upon our hands, through misery and suffering The Partisans awareness has created. And now when we should, to the sun, to the sky, We raise our fists high.
With Marshal Tito, the communists song from Tito's Yugoslavia
Yes, Dean. I am atheist and by my opinion for me is easier to listen some music. I suppose, that for some believers must to be more problematic to listen some "music for theists", if lyrics is in conflict with something, what is most holy for him. For instance one believer worships Jesus as second person of God, for non-christian believer it can be painful blasphemy insulting God of his deep faith.
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Posted: August 27 2015 at 11:19
Atheist (note the correct spelling of the word ) music is better known as secular music, i.e. music that is not influenced by religious or spiritual matters.
Of course there is religious music that is non-theist, and that would be of a non-god specific spiritual nature, Prog is not immune from the kind of post-hippy "child of the universe" kind of lyric that has since been associated with the New Age movement.
Except in circumstances where the lyrics of the music are overly proselytising, I would imagine that most atheists are both receptive to, and tolerant of, religious music so "Music for Atheists" would be better described as just "Music".
However, I doubt that is what Steve is looking for here (hence my earlier post of Tim Minchin's comedic anti-theist ditties - though whether any of those actually fit the requirement is debatable), but as Hugues rightly says, atheists don't have (spiritual) beliefs, nor do they slavishly believe in science as some theists would claim. Even if we cite Banco's "Darwin!", this isn't an album of atheist music since evolution as a scientific principle is supported by many religious groups.
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Posted: August 27 2015 at 09:16
Smurph wrote:
The only actual "evil" religious people are the ones that use their religion to control other people, to gain power, and to use it as an excuse to cause pain in others.
It's easy to dismiss people as hypocritical but often this is just how they are brainwashed and they do not know any better.
Then, I would say that self-worship is probably the most atheistic belief.
isn't that the goal of religion, though?? To control the masses through their fears and superstitions in order to get political ascendence or the gullible believers...
I know what you're getting at.... But have those believers no brains to think for themselves?? Of course they do!! They choose to be part of the herd because there is safety in numbers
Totally disagree... I call that selfishness. Atheism is more about individualism, than putting yourself forward
Guldbamsen wrote:
I'm not sure there is music specifically designed for atheists - nor believers for that matter. Isn't music supposed to be above all that sh*te? I mean, I adore the new Algiers album that quite openly combines two very odd bedfellows in gospel and post-punk, yet I find the music incredibly inspiring and beautiful no matter what is being alluded to. Sure there are xceptions to everything, and I hate being preached to from a piedestal, but hell man just listen to the music! I don't get my panties in a twist whenever I hear all the hallelujas on Popol Vuh's Seligpreisung, and I don't subscribe to any religion.
I don't think there is... Because Atheists wouldn't feel catered by it if it ever existed at all. In a way, that's the point: atheism is about nothing (IMHO, anyway)
Again IMHO, but there are no such thing as "believers" in atheism, there are only "knowers" about nothing... Believers are gullibles
BTW, I love Popol Vuh's esoteric music, and TBH, I find Carmina Burana and and a few other "religious chants" quite enthralling.
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Posted: August 25 2015 at 09:53
Guldbamsen wrote:
I'm not sure there is music specifically designed for atheists - nor believers for that matter. Isn't music supposed to be above all that sh*te? I mean, I adore the new Algiers album that quite openly combines two very odd bedfellows in gospel and post-punk, yet I find the music incredibly inspiring and beautiful no matter what is being alluded to. Sure there are xceptions to everything, and I hate being preached to from a piedestal, but hell man just listen to the music! I don't get my panties in a twist whenever I hear all the hallelujas on Popol Vuh's Seligpreisung, and I don't subscribe to any religion.
I don't think anyone who posted here got their panties in a twist David. This post is more correctly anti religion (which is the atheists watchword), and any music is certainly not above that sh*te. And never has been or ever will be.
There is also a post for theists that want equal time. Music can be democratic. It's the part about being devoid of social or political comment that I find suspect.
I'm not sure there is music specifically designed for atheists - nor believers for that matter. Isn't music supposed to be above all that sh*te? I mean, I adore the new Algiers album that quite openly combines two very odd bedfellows in gospel and post-punk, yet I find the music incredibly inspiring and beautiful no matter what is being alluded to. Sure there are xceptions to everything, and I hate being preached to from a piedestal, but hell man just listen to the music! I don't get my panties in a twist whenever I hear all the hallelujas on Popol Vuh's Seligpreisung, and I don't subscribe to any religion.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
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Posted: August 25 2015 at 08:57
Sean Trane wrote:
thing is that even if atheists would be wrong, and there would be a judgment day, they would probably get to heaven quicker than most believers, because we've led a saner life....
As one that believes in universal reconciliation this statement is really odd to me.
The only actual "evil" religious people are the ones that use their religion to control other people, to gain power, and to use it as an excuse to cause pain in others.
It's easy to dismiss people as hypocritical but often this is just how they are brainwashed and they do not know any better.
I like to think that God is way more forgiving than this.
But to be on topic, there are TONS of bands that are Anton Lavey Satanists (non-theistic Satanists), which basically amounts to self-worship.
Then, I would say that self-worship is probably the most atheistic belief.
So... Kanye West, Jay-Z, every single hip-hop artist ever that has written a song about being God, Ke$ha, Katy Perry, Beyonce, etc etc etc etc. Those that promote self-worship are probably the most atheist-type musicians to me.
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Posted: August 25 2015 at 03:38
Mmmhhh!!!.. Haven't seen many examples about atheism itself in this thread. Most of what I saw/heard is mostly attacks against religions (whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiich is fine by me, BTW)
micky wrote:
Raff wrote:
micky wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Music for atheists or people going to hell according to your beliefs or a lack thereof.
that is too funny... we went to a funeral today and we were told we were going to hell!
Now that was a helluva of a send off man
Yes, at one point - during the final sermon, or message, or whatever it was called - the pastor said that those who don't accept Jesus Christ as their Lord are going to hell. I think I hadn't heard anything of the sort for at least three decades (probably more). The funniest thing is one of the people who were present (and who happens to be Micky's boss) is Jewish... So much for tolerance and open-mindedness.
yeah.. I think Dave nearly fell out of his chair I almost started laughing out loud. That came completely from left field near the end of a completely generic funeral service.....you are going to HELL!!
The funny thing was.. a nice sweet old man.. works with the elderly.. and his wasn't even a damn Baptist. I told you about the time the Spawn of Satan and I went looking for a church.. to do that respectability thing.. an ex-Catholic and ex-Mormon.. so we decided to go to a Southern Baptist service.
Good god almighty... now that was some fire and brimstone.. you are going to hell kind of sh*t man. Being the heady sinners we both were.. we ran.. not walked our asses out of that church.
thing is that even if atheists would be wrong, and there would be a judgment day, they would probably get to heaven quicker than most believers, because we've led a saner life.... Like not wasting out times in churches adoring some guy that their ancestors put on cross.... bloody pagans
Pretty sure that an almost totally-unlikely-possible god would actually hate all those hypocrits praying and loving him out of fear
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, I was besides my boots. 
Sean Trane wrote:
out of me. I mean, can't religious pêople not relate to themselves and the fact that they must "believe" in something just to fill the void they feel and fear?? 
. 
pagans 
