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Second tier of "big" bands?
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Nogbad_The_Bad View Drop Down
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Surely VDGG, GG and Camel need to be in the 2nd tier. I probably agree with Renaissance too.


I agree. While I think Nektar, Gong and Focus are worthy of second tier I think ultimately it would have to be something like this:

Rush
Camel
Gentle Giant
VDGG
Renaissance
Kansas

The Moodies I wouldn't put in there because they were a little too close to pop and not quite prog enough most of the time. If we put in the Moodies it seems to me we would also have to add ELO and Styx and maybe a few others and it would just keep snowballing.

I'd pretty ok with that version of the second tier, personally I'd find a way for Gong/Oldfield at the expense of Kansas/Renaissance but that's just my preference.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I agree. While I think Nektar, Gong and Focus are worthy of second tier I think ultimately it would have to be something like this:

Rush
Camel
Gentle Giant
VDGG
Renaissance
Kansas


Agree, although I would doubt between Kansas and Mike Oldfield, if only because Oldfield's huge historical influence on the genre with TB. At least in Europe nearly every family in the 70s had a copy of TB at home, while not so many would have Kansas albums.
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I was going to include Gentle Giant and Van Der Graaf Generator in the third tier, if there IS a third tier. Smile

Well, if this is based on consensus then GG and VDGG would both make second tier(heck I've seen GG in the first tier). However, I see you are from the UK and to my understanding GG were never very big in their homeland. However, in the over all big picture they are usually the next band after KC in most lists that I have seen.
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I was going to include Gentle Giant and Van Der Graaf Generator in the third tier, if there IS a third tier. Smile
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Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Surely VDGG, GG and Camel need to be in the 2nd tier. I probably agree with Renaissance too.


I agree. While I think Nektar, Gong and Focus are worthy of second tier I think ultimately it would have to be something like this:

Rush
Camel
Gentle Giant
VDGG
Renaissance
Kansas

The Moodies I wouldn't put in there because they were a little too close to pop and not quite prog enough most of the time. If we put in the Moodies it seems to me we would also have to add ELO and Styx and maybe a few others and it would just keep snowballing.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - December 02 2019 at 06:50
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

That's decided then.
The six first tier bands are:-
 
Emerson, Lake & Palmer
Genesis
Jethro Tull
King Crimson
Pink Floyd
Yes
 
And the six second tier bands are:-
 
Barclay James Harvest
Camel
Caravan
Moody Blues
Procol Harum
Renaissance

Decided by who? And how can you leave out Gentle Giant and VDGG for second tier? I would take out BJH and PH(if not Moodies)and put in them? Also, you need to have Rush in the second tier too since they are absent from the first tier.
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Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Surely VDGG, GG and Camel need to be in the 2nd tier. I probably agree with Renaissance too.

There seem to be general consensus on GG, Camel & VDGG (other than psychotic penelope who just posted his first list again), the remaining 2/3 seems to be wide open to personal preference.


Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - December 02 2019 at 06:39
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Surely VDGG, GG and Camel need to be in the 2nd tier. I probably agree with Renaissance too.

Edited by Gerinski - December 02 2019 at 06:22
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

That's decided then.
The six first tier bands are:-
 
Emerson, Lake & Palmer
Genesis
Jethro Tull
King Crimson
Pink Floyd
Yes
 

Thumbs Up

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

And the six second tier bands are:-
 
Barclay James Harvest
Camel
Caravan
Moody Blues
Procol Harum
Renaissance

Thumbs DownLOLWacko
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Magma
Gong
Hawkwind
Can
Van der Graaf Generator
Nektar

I actually like all of these bands a lot better than the so-called "Big Six".


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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That's decided then.
The six first tier bands are:-
 
Emerson, Lake & Palmer
Genesis
Jethro Tull
King Crimson
Pink Floyd
Yes
 
And the six second tier bands are:-
 
Barclay James Harvest
Camel
Caravan
Moody Blues
Procol Harum
Renaissance


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - December 02 2019 at 00:48
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From the time I first discovered Prog until right now, when I think 'Prog' the 3 artists that immediately come to mind are Classic Yes, Classic Genesis, and ELP. That's it. To me that's Prog. Now when I hear artists like VdGG, Camel, GG.. my ears tell me 'it's Prog.'

Ok, of course King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull are all great. First tier? sure.

But still, for me personally, Prog is Genesis, Yes, and ELP.. always.
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

As a general point about the PA Top 100 it bugs me that there are so many albums with less than a 1000 ratings in there when there are albums that have 4000 ratings. If you filter with a minimum of 1000 ratings then ELP's first four studio albums are in there and that is more representative in my opinion. There is too much 'fanboyism' distorting the list imo.

Indeed. 5 stars are being thrown to recently released albums much too easily, without letting the time to put them into perspective or stand the test of time, resulting in absurdly high ratings.

I mean, an album like Edison's Children "The Disturbance Fields" may be a really good album for its context of albums released in 2019, but it can not be that it has almost the same rating as a "The Wall" for example...
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Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I just don't believe two virtually unknown bands from Italy should be in the second tier, and yes, I'm not ashamed to admit I do have an English bias towards British bands. Smile

 
Have you ever actually looked at the PA Top 100 Albums list? You can verify the place of Premiata Forneria Marconi (PFM) and Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso in the lists quite easily if you want.
 
 
 

No I haven't, but it still doesn't change the fact that hardly anyone in England will have heard of PFM or BDMS, no matter how good they are. Do they sing in English?


Hardly anyone anywhere who is not into prog has heard either about the RPI band or the less known prog bands. Most people would know only of Pink Floyd, and perhaps Genesis, Yes, or Jethro Tull (or perhaps Dream Theater or Peter Gabriel). Beyond that it's mostly only for prog fans. And mostly anyone who has heard Van Der Graaf Generator or Gentle Giant has heard about Rock Progresivo Italiano... and then the first ones to know are exactly PFM and Banco (and Le Orme)... so yes, those 3 RPI bands could easily be considered into the second tier of bands, if you are not concentrating only in brit bands.

I guarantee that there are lot more people who would have heard of Opeth or Dream Theater than either of these Italian bands (and I like the best albums of all three bands a lot).  The problem is not many prog listeners have ever been to a prog metal or metal show and it is as if that entire chapter of development in prog doesn't exist.  I don't completely disagree with that approach; I see prog metal as having developed independently of the first wave of prog and more connected to Sabbath/Purple/Rush.  But if you're going to have prog metal on this website, it makes no sense not to include the biggest prog metal bands in the second tier. 

That said, yes, what bands people have heard of in England cannot be a metric anymore.  Don't know that it ever should have been because prog was welcomed much more in America where the fans embraced it unquestioningly compared to Britain where there was always carping about pretentiousness.
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Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I just don't believe two virtually unknown bands from Italy should be in the second tier, and yes, I'm not ashamed to admit I do have an English bias towards British bands. Smile

 
Have you ever actually looked at the PA Top 100 Albums list? You can verify the place of Premiata Forneria Marconi (PFM) and Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso in the lists quite easily if you want.
 
 
 

No I haven't, but it still doesn't change the fact that hardly anyone in England will have heard of PFM or BDMS, no matter how good they are. Do they sing in English?


Hardly anyone anywhere who is not into prog has heard either about the RPI band or the less known prog bands. Most people would know only of Pink Floyd, and perhaps Genesis, Yes, or Jethro Tull (or perhaps Dream Theater or Peter Gabriel). Beyond that it's mostly only for prog fans. And mostly anyone who has heard Van Der Graaf Generator or Gentle Giant has heard about Rock Progresivo Italiano... and then the first ones to know are exactly PFM and Banco (and Le Orme)... so yes, those 3 RPI bands could easily be considered into the second tier of bands, if you are not concentrating only in brit bands.

Well I would add Rush to that list as well. In fact I would say most younger people(who aren't prog fans) would only know Pink Floyd and Rush.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - December 01 2019 at 02:07
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As a general point about the PA Top 100 it bugs me that there are so many albums with less than a 1000 ratings in there when there are albums that have 4000 ratings. If you filter with a minimum of 1000 ratings then ELP's first four studio albums are in there and that is more representative in my opinion. There is too much 'fanboyism' distorting the list imo.
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I just don't believe two virtually unknown bands from Italy should be in the second tier, and yes, I'm not ashamed to admit I do have an English bias towards British bands. Smile

 
Have you ever actually looked at the PA Top 100 Albums list? You can verify the place of Premiata Forneria Marconi (PFM) and Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso in the lists quite easily if you want.
 
 
 

No I haven't, but it still doesn't change the fact that hardly anyone in England will have heard of PFM or BDMS, no matter how good they are. Do they sing in English?


Hardly anyone anywhere who is not into prog has heard either about the RPI band or the less known prog bands. Most people would know only of Pink Floyd, and perhaps Genesis, Yes, or Jethro Tull (or perhaps Dream Theater or Peter Gabriel). Beyond that it's mostly only for prog fans. And mostly anyone who has heard Van Der Graaf Generator or Gentle Giant has heard about Rock Progresivo Italiano... and then the first ones to know are exactly PFM and Banco (and Le Orme)... so yes, those 3 RPI bands could easily be considered into the second tier of bands, if you are not concentrating only in brit bands.
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Brits are not the only Prog public. 
It is perfectly possible for people to include Italian or American or German bands in their second tier of top bands.
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England isn't any more relevant to this than any other country.
Furthermore "big x/second tier" was never a popularity contest. It's about musical substance, being influential etc.
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Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I just don't believe two virtually unknown bands from Italy should be in the second tier, and yes, I'm not ashamed to admit I do have an English bias towards British bands. Smile
 
Have you ever actually looked at the PA Top 100 Albums list? You can verify the place of Premiata Forneria Marconi (PFM) and Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso in the lists quite easily if you want.
 
 
 
No I haven't, but it still doesn't change the fact that hardly anyone in England will have heard of PFM or BDMS, no matter how good they are. Do they sing in English?
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