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Nature and Organisation for Prog Folk |
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nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6742 |
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This is undoubtedly one of the problems with PA, as because the collaborators change over time, there ends up with a lack of consistency not just over whether or not something is considered prog “enough” for the site, but where it fits in the site.
There is no doubt in my mind that N&O belongs in the same genre as Current 93. So if N&O are not prog folk, how do the present prog folk collaborators feel about Current 93? Would they have made it into prof folk? These questions are somewhat rhetorical, because not only are there not necessarily easy answers, but they are also somewhat irrelevant. When it comes down it, so long as a band is prog “enough” for inclusion in PA, I don’t think the genre is necessarily that important. There are numerous bands and artists in PA whose genre is, at best, questionable. Obviously, as a collaborator myself, I have to try to be as objective as possible. But what I do always try to do, is (whenever I am reminded of other artists or bands) look to see how they have been categorised in PA. Sometimes I come across a submission for prog metal that doesn’t seem like it quite belongs, and my first impulse is to suggest a move - but then when I look back at other bands I am reminded of, or that sound similar, I find that they are within one (or two) of the prog metal genres. The problem is not just compounded by bands and artists changing their sound and style (sometimes dramatically) over time, but by the fact that their sound could fit easily into at least two different PA genres. For example, virtually any band that plays “brutal prog” (and this is a recognised genre, whether or not you think it is necessary or helpful) could be accepted by either the RIO/Avant or Prog Metal teams - and indeed, if you Google and choose any one of the lists that might come up, you would probably find the bands in that list spread fairly equally between the PA genres. I can definitely understand why Gordy has put N&O up for prog folk; and I can also understand Hugues having reservations. Ultimately, so long as N&O are included in PA, it becomes a moot point. But in the meantime, they need to be evaluated by a team. It’s “complicated” submissions like this that make me wish that more collaborator discussions took place in these submission posts (which, as Greg pointed out in another post like this, used to be the norm). Unfortunately it seems a lot of collaborators “ignore” submissions until they formally come to the team for evaluation. I don’t think this is done out of laziness, so much as this is just now seen as the standard way of doing things. The previous, more public, way of discussing submissions before they were taken away by one team for evaluation definitely does have advantages, in my opinion. |
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Gordy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Folk/Eclectic/PSIKE/Metal/Post/Math Team Joined: January 25 2007 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 4479 |
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Thanks for your input, Hugues. I'm fairly surprised at your conclusion but hear me out on this one:
I at times have difficulty settling on which subgenre to assign an artist if they're particularly eclectic and evolve constantly through their career (a decision based on their best known work/era versus the current-day sound at which they ended up), but I argue that N&O warrant inclusion in PF on a primarily folk basis like their sister band Current 93. Like them, N&O began with industrial experiments before shifting to folk, and even then their 1990s direction was precipitated alongside the noise of their early days with the compilation tracks "Heat" and "Sex Recall" (both date from sometime in the mid to late 80s) which were basically folk songs with Cashmore's acoustic guitar and, uh, interesting vocals. The project would become better known in 1993 with a contribution to Current 93's Emblems compilation, "Hooves," displaying a more refined and gorgeous folk approach (and mercifully handing the vocals to David Tibet). For years their best known and celebrated work has been 1994's Beauty Reaps the Blood of Solitude, which is universally established as (neo-)folk whenever you read about it (bolded on the aforementioned RYM). N&O's top representative tags on last.fm are "neofolk, neoclassical, apocalyptic folk, dark folk, dark ambient." It's interesting you only hear folkish "moments;" at this point Cashmore's compositions are an inversion of his career so far with folk as the foundation (complete with a cover of "Willow's Song" from The Wicker Man soundtrack) punctuated by occasional industrial outbursts (namely "Beauty Destroyed" and portions of "A Dozen Winters of Loneliness"). I understand where you hear neoclassical but I would only fully ascribe that to Death in a Snow Leopard Winter, which is less dense and complex than Beauty, and by Cashmore's admission it's more of a series of unrealised sketches/demos that needed vocals than a fully-fleshed out album. Like Ken mentioned, it's on Beauty's basis that N&O were being considered for PF (and that basis is expanded with those three aforementioned folk-aligned compilation tracks which predate the album, two of which can be heard here - https://penga.bandcamp.com/track/heat-prayers-sex-recall). I didn't even know the project had been revived until I did my research (the lack of fanfare is probably because his new direction isn't very good, to be honest). Snow Leopard Winter reminded me of the last three Hammock records, and that band's electronic post-rock side runs alongside real latter day Klaus Schulze vibes in N&O's video soundtrack and their EP of re-recorded tracks, but A Dozen Winters Against the World is at least rooted in folk while Universal Death Stream is purely electronic. So while the band's career is bookended by an electronic approach, their most recent art has one foot enough in their past to still warrant being called "folk." As with Current 93 - who you rightly noted are hard to pigeonhole yet ultimately ended up in Prog Folk - N&O are remembered more for their folk work than their industrial past, and whatever strange trajectory Cashmore is taking won't make a dent in the legacy of his 90s material.
And you mentioned they might be better suited in "avant or experimental," and I'm happy to run it by Ian and Co. but as for "experimental" I'm not sure if you meant Prog Electronic due to where N&O are as of their last two releases. Would they maybe stand a chance in Eclectic if all else fails? Edited by Gordy - July 28 2021 at 02:38 |
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Sean Trane ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20557 |
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i thought i had chimed in a couple of months ago, but probably forgot to submit my opinon ![]() sp i relistened to most of this (above) and have a problem considering this prog folk (or neo-folk as RYM classifies it this is rather difficult to pigeonhole (just as Current 93 xas), but my guess would be avant or experimental yes, i hear some folkish moments, but definitely not enough to warrant an inclusion in PF. like Ken, i'd tend to speak more about neo-classical than neo-folk. PS: sorry for the typos & capitals, but i'm typing with one finger for the next month or so |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Gordy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Folk/Eclectic/PSIKE/Metal/Post/Math Team Joined: January 25 2007 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 4479 |
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Thank you. Fingers crossed!
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kenethlevine ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 9168 |
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still waiting on Hugue's input. I'm updating our spreadsheet in our folk prog thread and will remind him
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Droxford ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 16 2020 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 287 |
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I used to follow Current 93 quite avidly and am familiar with Nature and Organisation releases 'Beauty Reaps the Blood of Solitude' and 'A Dozen Summers Against the World' via the Current 93 connection. Interested to see that they are still operating. Must check out later releases.
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Gordy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Folk/Eclectic/PSIKE/Metal/Post/Math Team Joined: January 25 2007 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 4479 |
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Thank you both for your input. Glad you enjoyed his material. I never considered Eclectic but that could work.
Here's the A Dozen Winters Against the World EP for the sake of completeness. |
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kenethlevine ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 9168 |
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This could only be considered prog folk on the basis of "Beauty Reaps the Blood of Solitude", which could easily pass as a Current 93 album, so I suppose that's enough. The Snow Leopard disk is lovely but perhaps more neo classical than folk. The rest seems industrial to me. So if Hugues is in, we can add them
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TCat ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 07 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 11612 |
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I own the album "A Dozen Summers Against the World" and have always found it quite fascinating. Not sure if it fits under Prog Folk as their music at times can be a bit extreme, but then so is Current 93 for that matter, but more often than not is neo-folk oriented, but there is probably a place for it somewhere in the Archives, maybe even Eclectic???
Edited by TCat - June 02 2021 at 18:30 |
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Gordy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Folk/Eclectic/PSIKE/Metal/Post/Math Team Joined: January 25 2007 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 4479 |
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Just giving this a little bump. Did some more research and updated the bio, and if the team would like I can upload their 2017 single with the reworked songs. I found the band's material since 2016 is in more of an electronic and post-rock style (while keeping a folk foundation) that reminds me of Hammock and any number of Pink Floyd-inspired bands.
EDIT: And Universal Death Stream gives me post-2000 Klaus Schulze vibes Edited by Gordy - June 16 2021 at 23:31 |
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Gordy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Folk/Eclectic/PSIKE/Metal/Post/Math Team Joined: January 25 2007 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 4479 |
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Nature and Organisation is the neofolk project of British composer and guitarist Michael Cashmore, formed in 1983. Its sound is defined by neoclassical acoustic folk paired with electronic industrial flourishes which set it apart from its contemporaries in the "apocalyptic folk" scene.
Nature and Organisation began as an experimental post-industrial unit, with noisy sound collages and tape loops owing more to the early works of Current 93, whose David Tibet Cashmore met in the mid-80s. This embryonic sound was documented in a handful of compilation tracks and a live performance, Third Terminal Position, independently released on cassette in 1986. In 1990, Cashmore joined Current 93, imbuing it with his unique, lush melodious compositional talent. Four years later, Cashmore released Nature and Organisation's most well-known and defining album, Beauty Reaps the Blood of Solitude, on Durtro records. The LP featured contributions from Tibet, as well as Douglas P. (of Death in June), Rose McDowall (of Strawberry Switchblade) and Steven Stapleton (of Nurse With Wound). An accompanying EP, A Dozen Summers Against the World, came out the same year.
Cashmore's sophomore LP, Death in a Snow Leopard Winter, was released in 1998. An instrumental and more neoclassical-oriented affair, dominated by piano and strings, Cashmore claimed he intended to add vocals and deemed the album "unfinished." The project would enter dormancy sometime afterwards until a 2015 collection, Snow Leopard Messiah, was released by Trisol, compiling both LPs and the EP, along with a rare Jacques Brel interpretation. Nature and Organisation would record their first new material in nearly twenty years for the 2016 archival release Universal Death Stream, scoring a soundtrack to an unreleased film the band made in 1985. By this time, Cashmore's sound shifted dynamically yet again, incorporating more electronic and ambient post-rock influences. A 12" vinyl single, A Dozen Winters Against the World, was issued a year later, featuring remixed and rearranged versions of three old songs in the new style. Nature and Organisation will appeal to listeners of Current 93, Sangre de Muerdago, Hautville, Forseti, Corde Oblique and Solanaceae. ![]() [ "Third Terminal Position" (1986) "Hooves" (1993) compilation track from Current 93's Emblems: The Menstrual Years "Beauty Reaps the Blood of Solitude" (1994) "A Dozen Summers Against the World" (1994) "Death in a Snow Leopard Winter" (1998) "Universal Death Stream" (2016)
Edited by Gordy - February 17 2022 at 16:04 |
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