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Sweetnighter 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 24 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1298 |
 Posted: May 13 2005 at 11:11 |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#God_as_a_philosophical_ category You didn't respond to a thing I wrote. Why do you keep bringing this "passionate" issue up? Who cares!? Whether you're passionate about a philosophy or not is totally non sequitur. Atheism, whether or not you identify it as a philosophy, is a philosophy that many people adhere to. Its a group of ideas that, together, are designed to disprove the existence of deities. Thats philosophy. You may interpret that to be "intellectual snobbery" if you like, fine, but atheism is still philosophy! thats what it is! Atheism is far more than just an "observation". You also seem to be arguing that atheism doesn't need to be a philosophy becuase theism shouldn't be a philosophy. I hear what you're saying, and I agree with you that theism is a ridiculous concept, but there are others (a vast majority of others) who disagree with us. Regardless, there's a conflict of opinion, and the result is the development of two philosophies, theism and atheism, which use arguments to try to disprove one another. Just because you don't like it that way doesn't mean that those entities aren't philosophies. |
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend |
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Velvetclown
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004 Status: Offline Points: 8548 |
Posted: May 13 2005 at 06:54 |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11985 |
Posted: May 13 2005 at 06:31 |
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"There is no God." "There is no Bogey-Man" Which is a philosophical statement? Both would be if someone started a Bogeyman Cult. I will only get passionate about either statement if someone declares the opposite is true and invites me to comment. My long-winded point is that,to me,belief in God is equally as ridiculous as the belief in the Bogey-Man and come from the same book of campside stories (Maani might argue that the Bogey-Man is a metaphor for the Devil).That is not a philosophy it is an observation. I hate tags,jargon and all other esoteric bullsh*t designed to make the user appear intellectually superior when in effect it just describes the users herd mentality. |
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James Lee
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 05 2004 Status: Offline Points: 3525 |
Posted: May 13 2005 at 02:56 |
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One could be an atheist if the concept of god had simply never occured to them (though in that case one would not be able to call themself an atheist- as the alternative would not have occured to them either). |
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1298 |
Posted: May 13 2005 at 00:14 |
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the difference? look at the bold. one is a statement of fact. the other is a statement of opinion. if i were to follow your logic, wouldn't every "negative" philosophy be a non-philosophy? for instance, consider the political philosophy of nationalism. nationalists believe that one's country is supreme to all else. antinationalists, on the other hand, believe, for a number of reasons, that the state/nation is not supreme. does that mean that the set of ideas that antinationalists are advocating do not constitute a philosophy just because they take the negative side of the argument? if the negative side of the debate has reasoned arguments and a philosophical approach, why can't it be a philosophy? "antinationalists" can also be called "internationalists". Is internationalism a philosophy? I think so. Is internationalism the same thing as antinationalism? Clearly it is. Therefore, is antinationalism a philosophy? Yes. And as was established before, it is a negative philosophy. So, from this short argument, we can conclude that philosophies that take the negative vantage point are still valid philosophies. So, in summary, we've concluded that a) a philosophy is a statement of some sort of belief, i.e. "i don't believe that god exists" and b) that a set of reasoned arguments, whether it be positive or negative, is a philosophy. Therefore, I would consider atheism a philosophy, since atheism, like antinationalism, is a negative philosophy that contains a series of reasoned arguments. PS: by negative, i mean that the philosophy is taking the dissenting opinion, not that it has a negative attitude or is a bad philosophy PSS: so you don't like tags for non-belief... unfortunately, it just so happens that "non-belief" is a type of belief. even the most ardent rationalists accept postulates in their philosophies... these, too, are beliefs. unless you're some kind of god (no joke intended) and have the divine power to prove something true beyond doubt, everything to some extent is a belief. you exist... so you think you know. how do you know that? maybe its just something you believe  Edited by Sweetnighter |
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend |
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Manunkind
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 2373 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 15:56 |
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Sheesh, what did you expect when you started this thread, Sweetnighter? When someone feels his/her worldview (read: someone's promise of salvation, intellectual prestige, peace, happiness, power etc. reward in general) is jeopardised by someone else's worldview (read: as above), they become a terrorist, to a greater or smaller degree. And this is why I'm quitting this thread, the temptation to spread verbal violence in defence of my worldview, and thus becoming a terrorist is too great. To quote Maani: Peace |
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"In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 15:55 |
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Youve gotta have Tags for dead people though. otherwise you won't know whos who in the morgue
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11985 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 15:52 |
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Once more, "My name isnt Bill" is that a philosophy? Or a statement? "I do not believe in God" is that a statement or a Philosophy? I contend that it is only a Philosophy to someone who does believe in God. In the same way that "My name isnt Bill" would only be a Philosophy to the "I Believe Tony Is Called Bill" Sect. I do not like tags for non-belief.....that is my Philosophy! |
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1298 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 15:22 |
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I read what you wrote, and I asked for clarification, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.  Atheism does not have to be a philosophy? Umm... but... it is. I mean, you can't get around that. You don't have to be zealous or passionate about it, its just a philosophy. Whats wrong with its being a philosophy? You could be an atheist your whole life and never even think about the issue, talk to anybody about it, or say the word "atheist". You seem to interpret a philosophy or a religion as something that you have to identify yourself by or be heart-and-soul dedicated to. |
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend |
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Manunkind
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 2373 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 14:59 |
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I practice the Dalai Lama's religion, that is trying to be a kind person. EDIT: Just in case, everyone, let's get our DSOTM booklets out, and sing "Us and Them" in front of our PC monitors, all right? Edited by Manunkind |
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"In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11985 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 14:56 |
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Sweetnighter could reply better if he reads what we have written instead of what he thinks we have written....... I am saying that "atheism" does not have to be a philosophy,that is all.A religious man like Maani is always conscious of his beliefs,they underpin his spiritual life in the non-spiritual world.I do not walk around wearing a mental badge saying "I do not believe in God",it would be as pointless to me as having to declare that "Peter Gabriel is not a member of Led Zepellin" or "Geddy Lee is a member of Rush" |
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James Lee
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 05 2004 Status: Offline Points: 3525 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 14:16 |
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Well, to be fair...one could consider Atheism a 'religion' in the sense that many atheists dedicate so much of their thought and effort to disproving or discrediting religious concepts. An atheist whose beliefs center around an active opposition to religion is much more like a religious man than he is like a heathen.
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1298 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 11:13 |
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Wow, wasn't really expecting that kind of opposition. What I was trying to get at by pointing out that communism and objectivism are both atheistic philosophies was that atheism is not much of a stand-alone cause. Any "atheist movement" would be destroyed internally over the issue of why one is an atheist. I guess what I'm lost on is what your issue with "atheism" is... do you not think its a philosophy? do you dislike the connotation of the word? Personally, i never thought atheism to be anything more than a disbelief in the existence of gods... you seem to think its something more than that. I'm really confused! |
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend |
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arcer
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 01 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1239 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 10:08 |
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Who's this god guy and can I blame him for that other Simpson girl? And haemmorhoids. What's 'all in god's plan' about them? He sure does move in mysterious ways on that score. And what about dropped mobile phone calls - is he to blame for those too
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 08:50 |
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Thats why I cant Vote, Tony R(se)...I'm not an anything!
 ...so that means the software for this forum knows that! .. Edited by Snow Dog |
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 08:41 |
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Only those of faith can vote in this poll  Sinners I voted pagan/wicca, get's a multiple vote  |
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 08:36 |
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I have to agree with this mouthy little newbie Why is organised religion more believable than anything else that can not be proven scientifically, and relies on blind faith for survival. My disbelief in God is based on similar reasoning here. BTW, I cant vote either
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Alucard
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 10 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 3888 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 08:05 |
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One Of Us(Joan Osborne) kind of funky, I like the Prince Version, God has invented music, he must be a kind of groovy guy (or girl)! Edited by Alucard |
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Velvetclown
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004 Status: Offline Points: 8548 |
Posted: May 12 2005 at 01:56 |
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: May 11 2005 at 19:08 |
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Why cant I vote in This poll
 ?????
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Religion Poll
Topic Options
Tony R wrote:
Atheism, by its name, requires a comparison...however, the concept of atheism only requires that the adherent not posess a belief in a god. Rather than opposition (which would be Antitheism, I guess), there is only an absence when compared with 'Theism', or belief in a deity or deities. It has the same orientation as 'amoral', which is not a rejection of morality, but simply its lack. 
Not that I'll lose much sleep over it.