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Ivan_Melgar_M 
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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 Posted: April 04 2008 at 10:48 |
Stylasyn wrote:
 I thought this was a discourse. How can one win something that has nothing that can be answered in this place/time if at all? There is no winner. Views are presented and folks agree or disagree. |
I don’t pretend to win, but in the case of my last post the purpose was to prove that Cuncuna lied repeatedly or maybe talked about things he didn’t knew or understood as if this were facts.
He repeatedly said:
- That the Catholic Church hated all other religions; This was proved to be false, being that the Catholic Church is the one that has collaborated more with other confessions, in favor of a unity, with the Christians (even trying to reach an understanding with Orthodoxs, Anglicans and Lutherans mainly) and a relation of mutual respect among other different religions as Moslems and Jrewishs
- That the Catholic Church is homophobic and hates the homosexual (because a friend of him that we don’t know if he knows what’s talking about told him): Again this was proved false with official documents of the Church and with the fact that homosexual acts are catalogued as sins against chastity, exactly as heterosexual acts outside the marriage, the same dovcuments says that the Homosexual as person deserves protection and pastoral counseling as any person.
- That John Paul II said (and he even dared to give wrong quotes) that hell doesn’t exist just to be contradicted by the next Benedictus XVI: This was proven to be a fallacy, the Pope never said it and he wasn’t able to understand the text.
- That the Catholic Church doesn’t admit salvation outside this religion; But in this case he repeated it three times, and three times was proven wrong and misleading with official documents.
- That the Catholic Church wouldn’t invest a cent in environmental issues: He even dared to say that he was certain of this: Well I also proved that he was wrong and trying to mislead again, that several millions were invested in providing clean solar energy to all the Holy See.
- With incredible ignorance not only of theology but also of human laws, he said that convivted pedophiles were sent to comfortable exile to think of their sins; This was not only ridiculous because we know that if a person is convicted of sexual depravity or child abuse is sent to jail as any criminal but also misleading, because he tries to make people believe that the Church can overturn a veredict.
And many more things that were proved wrong, I don’t know if he lies on purpose or simply doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but all his accusations were proved wrong, he even gave the idea that Priests went to war as soldiers, when the function of a military Chaplain is totally different.
So I guess the truth won against the person who lies to discredit the Catholic Church with an incredible number of false and even ridiculous statements
Stylasyn wrote:
| By the way, last night on the History Channel, a number of scholars were discussing whether Jesus actually was resurrected or if it was just the style of writing in the New Testament. It was pointed out that dreams were thought to be reality and since so many followers were distraught by the death of Jesus, their subconscious had to create a self-defense mechanism to lessen the blow of the tragedy. It was an interesting idea since back in that time people didn't understand what dreams were really about. |
Oh, I love this programs, like the one empty Tomb of Jesus, they even said they had DNA evidence  (Nobody has Christ or Mary Magdalene DNA, may except the Imuminaty  )
All the Hollywood director proved was that three persons who’s DNA proved had no family relation and had the most common names in early Christianity were buried together, from there they invented a complex story and turned reality into fiction with no coherence, to the point that no Christian Church even lost their time talking about iyt, because it was so silly that nobody discovered anything.
Now they dare to say they know that the apostles were dreaming when they saw Christ, well I guess it’s possible, but very weird when 12 persons were together at determined moment and saw Christ…Maybe the 12 dreamed the same thing simultaneously?.
In no case Jesus appeared to one person after his death, he always did to at least two persons together, and unless there’s a massive dream, I don’t get their point.
How this pseudo scientists dare to talk about people they haven’t talked with or analyzed their state of mind or sanity?
It’s easy to make wild guesses, but the four Gosples and even the apocryphal ones say exactly the same things of what happened after Christ’s death.
But History Channel is making money with this and entertaining people with their stories, without any base.
Ivan
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Salvo_
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 27 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 110
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Posted: April 04 2008 at 10:38 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Salvo_ wrote:
Ivan wins the thread again. |
I thought this was a discourse. How can one win something that has nothing that can be answered in this place/time if at all? There is no winner. Views are presented and folks agree or disagree. |
Holy crap, you guys are so far behind on internet lingo.
| By the way, last night on the History Channel, a number of scholars were discussing whether Jesus actually was resurrected or if it was just the style of writing in the New Testament. It was pointed out that dreams were thought to be reality and since so many followers were distraught by the death of Jesus, their subconscious had to create a self-defense mechanism to lessen the blow of the tragedy. It was an interesting idea since back in that time people didn't understand what dreams were really about. |
Yeah, they died for a dream created by their subconscious. Which they all had at the same time in exactly the same way. Sure. Give them some credit, they knew dreams weren't real. Also, more than just the apostles saw Jesus resurrected (although I assume they'll claim that is a lie).
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: April 04 2008 at 08:29 |
Salvo_ wrote:
Ivan wins the thread again. |
I thought this was a discourse. How can one win something that has nothing that can not be answered in this place/time if at all? There is no winner. Views are presented and folks agree or disagree.
By the way, last night on the History Channel, a number of scholars were discussing whether Jesus actually was resurrected or if it was just the style of writing in the New Testament. It was pointed out that dreams were thought to be reality and since so many followers were distraught by the death of Jesus, their subconscious had to create a self-defense mechanism to lessen the blow of the tragedy. It was an interesting idea since back in that time people didn't understand what dreams were really about.
Edited by StyLaZyn - April 04 2008 at 12:10
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Salvo_
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 27 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 110
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 22:09 |
Ivan wins the thread again. But, of course, nobody will listen and we'll keep having people say dumb things.
cuncuna wrote:
And by the way, maybe I don't have enough brain to understand theology (or I have too much and therefore my interest is 0), but I do know that a blessed weapons (as, for example, every new piece of weaponry that Chilean army buys until today) is still an instrument of death. Or maybe I'm not aware of something, let's say, that the blessing turns the weapon into a holly device of love.
Perhaps I'm too dumb and I can't see this. |
Your words, they make no sense. What are you talking about?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 22:04 |
cuncuna wrote:
Let's see... I already said (with no problem for me at all) that what I vaguely remembered as a pope oficial decalration of "helll doesn not exist" was wrong. I heard it once from the tv and that's it. As for the rest ¿how have I been proved wrong?
You want me to number them?
Well here they go:
1.- Cuncuna wrote:
| Catholic church makes it difficult for me to know if they are against things for good or for bad reasons, but I'm certain of this: catholic church won't invest a cent into actual environmental protection. |
Oops, you forgot this one also? I have proved you that the Vatican State (ergo the Catholic Church) has invested millions of Euros in providing ONLY clean solar energy to the country and will soon be ready to sell the superavit to Rome.
2.- Cuncuna wrote:
| Catholic church seems to be against other religions as well |
Again you're wrong, Catholic Church is in constant work with other Churches, not only Christians, the Pope went to visit every religious leader in the world when he was on journey.....Strike two
2.- Cuncuna wrote:
| that catholic boss recently talked about how there was no salvation outside catholic church |
I just posted this
The "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium" (1964) is one of many documents to come out of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council (often referred to as "Vatican II"). The Council was held in Rome between 1962 and 1965. Lumen Gentium" contains in its Chapter 1 an essay on "The Mystery of the church." Sections 14 to 16 describe the potential for salvation of:
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Followers of the Catholic Church, |
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Members of other Christian denominations, and |
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Believers of non-Christian religions. 5 |
5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."
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Oops another "mistake", possibly, but it's strange that I posted this three times and you keep repeating the nonsesnse that the Poope said there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
STRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIKKKKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEE THREE
Do you insist that you don't keep talking about things you don't understand?
Not because you don't have brain, but because you clearly said that you heard it on TV or a friend told you, etc, please verify accusations before you say them as a fact.
I could follow, you given more wrong facts but 4 buttons are enough.
¿isn't there enough oximorons and contradictions? so... the church doesn't accept homosexuality, but accept the homosexual. ¿would you care to explain how can this be done given that you need homosexuals to have homosexuality?.
I'll explain it with a simple example so you understand it:
- The Church accepts single man and woman,
- Tthe Church doesn't accept sex between them.
- ERGO.......The Church accepts the person, but not the act,
As a fact (another mistake) HOMOSEXUAL SEX IS NOT A SPECIAL SIN, IT'S A SIN AGAINST CHASTITY, ECXACTLY AS SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE BETWEEN HETEROSEXUAL PEOPLE, OR DO YOU BELIEVE THE CHURCH IS ALSO HETEROPHOBIC?.
As for weapons and military... ¿you can recognize certain conducts as sins and have a job that is widely based on one of them?.
Does the Church sells or makes weapons? The weapons exist, you can't deny that, there's a fair use of weapons and an unfair use of weapons,
Now, the Military Chaplain is there to protect the souls of the Catholic soldiers, they don't fight, they only give spiritual counselling (THAT WAS ANOTHER MISTAKE OF YOU),
As for child abuse, I don't see how in the world would you think I think it is ok.
Nobody has said it's OK, seems you're a bit obsessed so now you invent words, nobody can be so stupid to say that child abuse is OK, the point is that the number of pedophile convicted priests is only 1.8% of the accused, that's wrong and they must be judged by the human laws, but not burned by the press and fanatics without a fair trial
But also remember the number and incidence of sexual misconduct in the priests is inferior to the percentage in most religions and much smaller than parents, grandparents or tutors, that this is wrong, it's wrong, but it's the act of a human, judge him, not the Church
The fact is, the last decade here left us with several convited cases of priestes child abusers. Many of them were peacefully sent to exile, so can reflect on what they've done or something.
Are you sure of that?????
Do you know how many priests have been convicted? Less than 0.2% of the accused (most of them in USA because the Catholic Church has money), and nobody talks about the 99.8 of the innocent falsely accused.
BTW: Again you are speaking ionsenses, no person convicted of a sexual case can be sent to peacefull exile, IF SOMEBODY IS CONVICTED OF A SEXUAL CRIME HE GOES TO JAIL, UNLESS THE USA JUDICIAL SYSTEM DOESN'T WORK.
The Church has no power over the judicial system.
So again, you are talking without knowledge
¿What does this mean? ¿You can be a holly man ANDa child abuser?.
No you can't, if you are found guilty, you go to jail, but being accused is not being guilty.
Again Cuncuna, nobody said a child abuser can be a holy man except you, stop placing words in our moths.
I don't get it. As said, too many contradictions.
Of course you see them, you believe is wrong for the Pope to talk about evironment, so what can we expect.
You quoting the basic rules from the catholic instruction manual is not convincing, since too many members seem unable to live by them.
There's no instruction manuals in the Catholic Church, I quote OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS and OFFICIAL WORDS OF THE POPE, much more than you have done until now, talking aboiut what you heard on TV or what your friend said
Also, I don't apreciate being called a fanatic, but if I need to talk like one, a religion that should see christ in those who suffer should have their churches opened every night
to prevent homeless people to freeze to death literaly.
There are MILLINS OF FREE CARE CENTERS PÄID BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, but in the monasteries live people who deserve protection.
Doi you know how many priests are killed, nuns raped or Churches robbed? Of course you don't, you have said repeatedly you don't care for anything related with Church.
There's a place for everything, the Church gives free hostage, medical care and food to the hungry in centers created by them, the Temple is a place for praying.
But in case of hurricanes, tornados or earthquakes, even the temples open their doors to help people.
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Lets follow:
stonebeard wrote:
I don't think anyone is getting upset at Catholics, per se, just the so-called authority of the pope to bring into and out of existence new mortal sins.
We believe that authority was given by God:
I think he's doing his job.
"Yesterday, you'd go to hell for this sin, but not today!"
Of course, because times change and so must the Church, in the Bible days it was legal to have slaves, today it isn't.
But things don't change, the point is that times and situations change and the Pope must analyze them, the Bible says don't kill, in the days of Jesus throiwing your trash wasn't a big problem for humanity, today that trash may kill humanity, this is only a new understanding of the text adapted to our reality.
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Here we go again:
cuncuna wrote:
And by the way, maybe I don't have enough brain to understand theology (or I have too much and therefore my interest is 0),
If youtr interest is 0, then don't talk about what you don't know, I don't know adavanced chemistry or care about it, then if somebody WHO KNOWS says something about it, I wouldn't dare to contradict him/her, because i may be corrected as you've been several times.
About your brain...I don't know, you seem a normal intelligent person (with a lot of hatred against the Church), but neither I'm a psycologyst or ever made you a test.
but I do know that a blessed weapons (as, for example, every new piece of weaponry that Chilean army buys until today) is still an instrument of death.
It's only a ritual, and I'm not sure is done today,m but if it's done, it's done so God watches it's used with justice, not to give superpowers to a weapon.
Or maybe I'm not aware of something, let's say, that the blessing turns the weapon into a holly device of love.
Perhaps I'm too dumb and I can't see this.
No, it doesn't turn it into nothing, the Pope may bless you in person, but if you are a murderer blessing, it has no power or meaning,
Just a thing, if your family is going to be killed or your country invaded, a weapon is an instrument of justice.
You just need a bit of imagination.
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 03 2008 at 22:20
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 20:49 |
cuncuna wrote:
And by the way, maybe I don't have enough brain to understand theology (or I have too much and therefore my interest is 0), but I do know that a blessed weapons (as, for example, every new piece of weaponry that Chilean army buys until today) is still an instrument of death. Or maybe I'm not aware of something, let's say, that the blessing turns the weapon into a holly device of love.
Perhaps I'm too dumb and I can't see this. |
Something so universal that applies to all men should be easily understood without the need for in depth knowledge of theology.
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cuncuna
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Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 4318
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 20:32 |
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And by the way, maybe I don't have enough brain to understand theology (or I have too much and therefore my interest is 0), but I do know that a blessed weapons (as, for example, every new piece of weaponry that Chilean army buys until today) is still an instrument of death. Or maybe I'm not aware of something, let's say, that the blessing turns the weapon into a holly device of love.
Perhaps I'm too dumb and I can't see this.
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 4318
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 20:20 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
cuncuna wrote:
 This one was a huge fan of our last dictatorship. If to kill is a sin, ¿howcome there are military priests? I think that theres even a ceremony of blessing of weapons... I know, I know, I already posted this, but it was the wrong thread. |
In most of the countries as mine, and according to the new Catholic Treaty, the Military Chaplain has no rank and obeys his cooncience before the orders of their superiors. Even the USA army (guided by an old treaty with the Vatican) who allow a Priest to have a rank, allows the priest to disobey the orders that he considers unjust, the Chaplain is not there to take a bazooka and blow the enemu, he's there to provice councelling and peace of mind to the soldiers. Every Catholic has a right to receive the marriage, communion, confession and last rites, and the only way to allow a Priest have access to certain Catholics in specific places is having a rank (duty of silence), or do you want that the priests ignore the rights of Catholics dying in the battlefield to receive the last rites? As a fact, a military Chaplain must give the last rites in a battlefield EVEN TO THE ENEMY. Only people with highranks are alñlowed to enter to certain facilities, all the Catholics have the right to listen mass once a week, so the Chaplain needs a rank Please Cuncuna, everytghing you said has been refuted with arguments, proved wrong several times, plñease if you don't know about something or you don't understand the reasons, stop creating confussion, you dared to say that the Pope said there was noo hell, and proved wrong, Theology is a complex issue, if you don't understand it because you don't care (as you said repeatedly), then stop providing false information vbased in what a friend told you. Then you said that Catholic Church excluded other religions from salvation, again I proved you were wrong, now you come with this The blessing of some weapons is an archaic ceremony already not used, but even if it happens in some places, it's only a ceremony, there are just and injust wars, the Church accepts that. But the blessibng (only ceremomnial) doesn't give the weapons extraordinary powers, the function of the blessing was to allow the owner to make a just and honest use of the weapon and avoid crimes and abuse. Iván |
Let's see... I already said (with no problem for me at all) that what I vaguely remembered as a pope oficial decalration of "helll doesn not exist" was wrong. I heard it once from the tv and that's it. As for the rest ¿how have I been proved wrong? ¿isn't there enough oximorons and contradictions? so... the church doesn't accept homosexuality, but accept the homosexual. ¿would you care to explain how can this be done given that you need homosexuals to have homosexuality?. As for weapons and military... ¿you can recognize certain conducts as sins and have a job that is widely based on one of them?. As for child abuse, I don't see how in the world would you think I think it is ok. The fact is, the last decade here left us with several convited cases of priestes child abusers. Many of them were peacefully sent to exile, so they can reflect on what they've done or something. ¿What does this mean? ¿You can be a holly man AND a child abuser?. I don't get it. As said, too many contradictions. You quoting the basic rules from the catholic instruction manual is not convincing, since too many members seem unable to live by them. Also, I don't apreciate being called a fanatic, but if I need to talk like one, a religion that should see christ in those who suffer should have their churches opened every night to prevent homeless people to freeze to death literaly.
Edited by cuncuna - April 03 2008 at 20:22
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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Salvo_
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 27 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 110
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 19:37 |
I respect respectful opinions. And you started it. :P
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stonebeard
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Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 19:27 |
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I don't think anyone is getting upset at Catholics, per se, just the so-called authority of the pope to bring into and out of existence new mortal sins.
"Yesterday, you'd go to hell for this sin, but not today!"
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
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Joined: April 29 2006
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 19:05 |
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Hey, I have no quarrel with Catholics, I just really love the Monty Python Spanish inquisition sketch.
Now we shall make Iván sit in the comfy chair and poke him with the soft cushions.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Points: 65922
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 19:03 |
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oy
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 4079
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 18:57 |
Salvo_ wrote:
It annoys me when people act so obnoxiously, so I respond in kind. I have not attacked anyone for being an atheist or whatever, I have only responded when they have felt the need to attack me. The strength of my convictions has nothing to do with it: nobody's mind changes on an internet forum, and I'm not trying to. I'm just trying to get people to stop being such militant b*****ds about it, and occasionally educate them about the real truth behind the falsehoods they are proclaiming (although Ivan has most of that covered). |
I noticed your tag line said "freedom". Does this include freedom of opinion? To quote a friend "Just saying!"  Am I alone in finding very ironic your comment about militant?
Edited by StyLaZyn - April 03 2008 at 19:02
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Tony R
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Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
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Points: 11985
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 18:18 |
Hey guys, I know that religion is a deeply personal and therefore emotive subject, but can we try to be civil please? We dont want to have to close every religion thread it gets tiresome. 
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Salvo_
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 27 2008
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Points: 110
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 17:52 |
The T wrote:
Where did he say that? |
debrewguy wrote:
As for the Pope spelling out these "new" sins, well ... most Catholics, actually all Catholics AND all people of faith (christian, muslim, jew, hindu et al) are cafeteria confessors when it comes to our religious beliefs. We believe the parts of our faith that we want to, disregard or dismiss those that we don't want. And YES, this includes the lapsed believer and the fundamentalist.
P.S. Let me repeat ... this occurs in ALL faiths. |
Although the exact word is not used, I cannot interpret this any other way as claiming all religious people are dishonest (and presumably athiests are honest because they have no belief?).
| and then you're best reply to an ironic post is "LOLOL"... |
I could think of something better, but why bother? And it wasn't that ironic, as it was still insulting Catholicism.
| No one is attacking you or your religion? |
Are you reading the same thread that I am? Or do you have incredibly poor reading comprehension? Nearly every other reply has some form of anti-religion in it. Here, let's look at the examples from this page alone:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The Pope has asked pardon for the sins of the Church, what else do you want? Would it be enough to burn 100 priests? Otr maybe a similar number of 5,000 confirmed deaths in 350 years?
I'm tired of this fanatical atheists who are not worst than the Fundamentalists, they made their own atheist Cruzade with an almost religious organization, the real atheist (not the poser who wants to look smarter than he is) doesn't spend all day attacking those who believe, they just live honesty in their disbelieve. |
Would the Pope have asked for forgiveness if the Church's ways did not effect it's perception? And why did it take so long? Why was he the first to recognize the hypocrisy? Sorry, I look it as PR.
OK, I'm not a true atheist, just one in training. I hope one day to get my certificate. |
StyLaZyn wrote:
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Slartibartfast wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Nobody can force you to be a Catholic, that's a choice you must make.
Iván |
Not like the good ole days of the inquisitions.   |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Excellent! I witnessed this attitude first hand while living in the Bible Belt. Funny how something that you would think bring people together isolates them into righteous factions.
Religion: dividing people since God was invented. |
If you can't see why those are direct attacks on me and my beliefs, then I don't know what to tell you. Also, I would love for you to point out an example where I am being even half as self-righteous as rhinn and his precious enlightenment.
| And even if we were, you shouldn't give a damn if your convictions are so strong as they appear to be.... |
It annoys me when people act so obnoxiously, so I respond in kind. I have not attacked anyone for being an atheist or whatever, I have only responded when they have felt the need to attack me. The strength of my convictions has nothing to do with it: nobody's mind changes on an internet forum, and I'm not trying to. I'm just trying to get people to stop being such militant b*****ds about it, and occasionally educate them about the real truth behind the falsehoods they are proclaiming (although Ivan has most of that covered).
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The T
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 15:52 |
Salvo_ wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Now that there are fewer Christians in the world, there will be more room in heaven. The Muslim thing is working out well for more available space. I wonder if you can rent it out in heaven?
So when the Earth is gone? What will God do for fun? Maybe he'll create a new race of "intelligent" creatures and make them fear him too! Misery loves company you know. Wouldn't that be thoughtful of him? |
YOU'RE SO CLEVER! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!
debrewguy wrote:
The Wisdom Of Emo Phillips |
Woah, man, that's deep. There's a reason Christians "pick and choose", but whatever, you're convinced all religious people are dishonest so I'm not going to bother. |
Where did he say that? You also accused me a few psots back of insulting you... and then you're best reply to an ironic post is "LOLOL"... Where's this self-righteous religious paranoia coming from man? No one is attacking you or your religion? And even if we were, you shouldn't give a damn if your convictions are so strong as they appear to be....
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Points: 17493
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 15:49 |
Salvo_ wrote:
rhinn wrote:
In this day and age with knowledge of all we know, why do we still believe in religion? |
Smug athiest ftl. |
Smug atheist and then smug anti-atheist ftl (whatever ftl means)
Edited by The T - April 03 2008 at 15:49
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 13:53 |
cuncuna wrote:
This one was a huge fan of our last dictatorship. If to kill is a sin, ¿howcome there are military priests? I think that theres even a ceremony of blessing of weapons... I know, I know, I already posted this, but it was the wrong thread. |
In most of the countries as mine, and according to the new Catholic Treaty, the Military Chaplain has no rank and obeys his cooncience before the orders of their superiors.
Even the USA army (guided by an old treaty with the Vatican) who allow a Priest to have a rank, allows the priest to disobey the orders that he considers unjust, the Chaplain is not there to take a bazooka and blow the enemu, he's there to provice councelling and peace of mind to the soldiers.
Every Catholic has a right to receive the marriage, communion, confession and last rites, and the only way to allow a Priest have access to certain Catholics in specific places is having a rank (duty of silence), or do you want that the priests ignore the rights of Catholics dying in the battlefield to receive the last rites? As a fact, a military Chaplain must give the last rites in a battlefield EVEN TO THE ENEMY.
Only people with highranks are alñlowed to enter to certain facilities, all the Catholics have the right to listen mass once a week, so the Chaplain needs a rank
Please Cuncuna, everytghing you said has been refuted with arguments, proved wrong several times, plñease if you don't know about something or you don't understand the reasons, stop creating confussion, you dared to say that the Pope said there was noo hell, and proved wrong, Theology is a complex issue, if you don't understand it because you don't care (as you said repeatedly), then stop providing false information vbased in what a friend told you.
Then you said that Catholic Church excluded other religions from salvation, again I proved you were wrong, now you come with this
The blessing of some weapons is an archaic ceremony already not used, but even if it happens in some places, it's only a ceremony, there are just and injust wars, the Church accepts that. But the blessibng (only ceremomnial) doesn't give the weapons extraordinary powers, the function of the blessing was to allow the owner to make a just and honest use of the weapon and avoid crimes and abuse.
Iván
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 4318
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 13:23 |
This one was a huge fan of our last dictatorship. If to kill is a sin, ¿howcome there are military priests? I think that theres even a ceremony of blessing of weapons... I know, I know, I already posted this, but it was the wrong thread.
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: April 03 2008 at 13:14 |
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StyLaZyn wrote:
Would the Pope have asked for forgiveness if the Church's ways did not effect it's perception? And why did it take so long? Why was he the first to recognize the hypocrisy? Sorry, I look it as PR.
Because the Vatican II Council changed the poluitics oof the Church, they decided to admit their mistakes and because a great man like Karol Woytilla (John Paul II) decided to accept the consequences and gave a damn aboul what people would say.
What would you prefer, to stay quiet as many others did? This is a on win situation, if the Pope doesn't accept, he's a SOB criminal supporter of atrocitie, but if he asks forgiveness, he's an hypocrite.
You don't want to listen anything, you have your mind made and close to anything with what you don't agree.
OK, I'm not a true atheist, just one in training. I hope one day to get my certificate.
No, you are training for bigot, nothing that comes fromn the Church can be good even if it's intrinsecally good.
Iván
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
the pope turns "green". what do you think?
