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Topic ClosedDid the Beatles really Invent Prog? Or not?

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Friday13th View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2015 at 11:31
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Friday13th Friday13th wrote:

Well Strawberry Fields IS strange in a good way even to modern ears now. "Strawberry fields...nothing is real." The notes hit on those words are chromatic and dissonant, and not to mention the outro. That doesn't mean no one had done that sort of thing before or that you could say "HERE! THE BIRTH OF PROG!" Psychedelic/Baroque pop had many comparable examples since '66. Good Vibrations was released earlier and is equally radical for its time, so to arbitrarily put a stake on Strawberry Fields doesn't work for me.
Strawberry Fields Forever is 'haunting' (strange-in-a-good-way, but not for everybody at that time) nothing less than e.g. Entangled by Genesis in 70s since we know how big difference in the equipment, technology of recording etc. actually is between 60s and middle of 70s, even in the case when The Beatles use that Indian harp (i.e. swarmandal, Hindustani Classical music instrument) to underline that haunting atmosphere.
 





Smile

Regarding Psychedelic and Baroque pop the tags, both tags are not quite suitable for Strawberry Fields Forever. Tomorow Never Knows is the great psych, and we could even describe that one as 'progressive psychedelia' aswell, but it's a 'psychedelic experience', not that haunting, pastoral and moony atmosphere of Strawbery Fields Forever.
The Beatles' songs like Yesterday and (or) Eleanor Rigby, simply due to that usage of the strings, were called Baroque pop. By the other bands, as an example of Baroque pop, I'd like to mention Walk Away Renee (1966) by NYC band The Left Banke. So everybody can hear that Baroque pop have nothing to do with Strawberry Fields Forever, i.e. SFF is not something derived from Baroque pop.
In lack of the term 'Symphonic rock' that will be coined some years later, Strawberry Fields Forever used to be and still to be wrongly tagged as a "Psych" and "Baroque pop", although both tags never ever work well for Strawberry Fields Forever  because Strawberry Fields Forever  already was something else, a new subgenre; The Beatles were move ahead. 








And that's it. Just born English Symphonic rock.

I love The Left Banke! "Pretty Ballerina" is one of my all time favorite songs. I don't say SFF is baroque pop as a derogatory term. If there were a "Baroque Pop Archives" I would be an equally proud and opinionated member LOL I also understand why you say SFF took that kind of music to the next level since I agree. I just don't agree that that is where you draw the line for where psychedelic rock/baroque pop ends and symphonic prog begins. To me it's still the former though admittedly at one of its most sophisticated peaks. "A Day in a Life" I think is more clearly distinct from a psychedelic rock/baroque pop tag. 

It's really just a difference in boundaries. My boundaries for what constitutes as prog are smaller than yours, whereas my boundaries for what counts as psychedelic rock/baroque pop are wider. All are awesome genres and it doesn't diminish their value. Fair enough? 

I've also never heard an actual prog artist specifically single out "Strawberry Fields Forever" as the most influential on prog. Robert Fripp on the other hand HAS specifically mentioned "A Day in the Life" as the big moment. Sgt. Pepper's is usually mentioned by most prog artists, and I can only assume it's due to that epic final track. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2015 at 10:32
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I always considered When I'm Sixty Four as the Beatles anti-psychedelic song. Or, as Greg would say 'granny music'.
In my defense, the term "granny music" in relation to McCartney's forays into trite dance hall music was coined by John Lennon. Obviously, he couldn't stand it either. LOL
Oh, I know the age old quote from Lennon. I've always felt that some of it was envy at times. Penny Lane was a song that Lennon could never write on his best day, while When I'm Sixty Four is a song that I'm sure he was glad that he couldn't. LOL

Edited by SteveG - July 09 2015 at 11:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2015 at 10:28
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ But it was also a weird and wonderful homage to that kind of song; both a trippy imitation and funny lambasting which was very much a part of the Psych approach (Doors, Janis, Floyd occasionally) .  I think McCartney described trying to imitate Sinatra.



Just to reiterate why I think When I'm Sixty Four is a pastiche. Not because of the dance hall music, which is accurate, but because of Macca's vocal parody. I believe that he was trying to sound like a teenage McCartney due the obvious speeding up of his recorded vocal track. He was, by his own admission, 'trying to sound younger', and the effect is corny.

Edited by SteveG - July 09 2015 at 11:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2015 at 10:19
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ your boundaries for psychedelia are broader than mine.
Let me rephrase the question. Do you think that Floyd had the conscious intention of adding avant-garde touches or music concrete into their music? Whose mind were they trying to blow with AHM or Meddle? The pot smoker, or the art critic?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2015 at 04:57
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I always considered When I'm Sixty Four as the Beatles anti-psychedelic song. Or, as Greg would say 'granny music'.
In my defense, the term "granny music" in relation to McCartney's forays into trite dance hall music was coined by John Lennon. Obviously, he couldn't stand it either. LOL
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2015 at 01:38
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

Can ANYBODY tell me what's Prog about I Wanna Hold Your Hand or Can't Buy Me Love ?? I pains me to find any complexity or barrier-breaking ideas in these songs (amongst the bulk of their catalogue).
And, in all respect, damned those Stones that Roll - Satanic Majesties 'out-Progs' anything the Drab Four acheived.
Don't roll me through the quagmire, I do adore Revolver, Sgt. Pepper's and Magical Mystery Tour (couldn't imagine my life without them) but...........
 
Who said Can't Buy Me Love is prog? Well it's about as prog as That's all or Owner of a lonely heart. Surely there's no need to have to bring up the fact that their career splits in two halves from Rubber Soul onwards, with Help as the bridge. That is while prog rock bands dumbed down to get pop hits, Beatles got sick of writing bland pop and got more ambitious. Radiohead have also followed a similar path.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2015 at 00:35
Originally posted by Pastmaster Pastmaster wrote:


I've always seen Ummagumma as a psychedelic/avant-garde rock album first and foremost. Wouldn't Meddle be their first true prog album?
Meddle is their first serious move to 'progressive psychedelia', though 'progressive psychedelia' is just a description for more experimental psych; it was related to prog-rock indeed, but it still to be Psychedelic rock.

Edited by Svetonio - July 09 2015 at 00:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2015 at 00:26
Originally posted by Friday13th Friday13th wrote:

Well Strawberry Fields IS strange in a good way even to modern ears now. "Strawberry fields...nothing is real." The notes hit on those words are chromatic and dissonant, and not to mention the outro. That doesn't mean no one had done that sort of thing before or that you could say "HERE! THE BIRTH OF PROG!" Psychedelic/Baroque pop had many comparable examples since '66. Good Vibrations was released earlier and is equally radical for its time, so to arbitrarily put a stake on Strawberry Fields doesn't work for me.
Strawberry Fields Forever is 'haunting' (strange-in-a-good-way, but not for everybody at that time) nothing less than e.g. Entangled by Genesis in 70s since we know how big difference in the equipment, technology of recording etc. actually is between 60s and middle of 70s, even in the case when The Beatles use that Indian harp (i.e. swarmandal, Hindustani Classical music instrument) to underline that haunting atmosphere.
 





Smile

Regarding Psychedelic and Baroque pop the tags, both tags are not quite suitable for Strawberry Fields Forever. Tomorow Never Knows is the great psych, and we could even describe that one as 'progressive psychedelia' aswell, but it's a 'psychedelic experience', not that haunting, pastoral and moony atmosphere of Strawbery Fields Forever.
The Beatles' songs like Yesterday and (or) Eleanor Rigby, simply due to that usage of the strings, were called Baroque pop. By the other bands, as an example of Baroque pop, I'd like to mention Walk Away Renee (1966) by NYC band The Left Banke. So everybody can hear that Baroque pop have nothing to do with Strawberry Fields Forever, i.e. SFF is not something derived from Baroque pop.
In lack of the term 'Symphonic rock' that will be coined some years later, Strawberry Fields Forever used to be and still to be wrongly tagged as a "Psych" and "Baroque pop", although both tags never ever work well for Strawberry Fields Forever  because Strawberry Fields Forever  already was something else, a new subgenre; The Beatles were move ahead. 








And that's it. Just born English Symphonic rock.


Edited by Svetonio - July 09 2015 at 10:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:46
^ your boundaries for psychedelia are broader than mine.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:34
^Well, the basis of these albums is psychedelia. Anything avant-garde would be a bonus, as would anything that's found to be prog. Agree?

Edited by SteveG - July 08 2015 at 19:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:27
Originally posted by Pastmaster Pastmaster wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

I thought a lot of people thought Piper was the first....
No, that is, was and always has been, considered to be psychedelic rock/pop album. Saucerful too, albeit with some proto-Prog moments. Floyd's first true Prog album would have been Ummagumma if it had been a single studio album.

I've always seen Ummagumma as a psychedelic/avant-garde rock album first and foremost. Wouldn't Meddle be their first true prog album?
*shrug* ...or Atom Heart Mother. I'm not that fussed either way, it's not Piper (or Saucerful), or Ummagumma that's all. 

Though that said, take away the psych/space rock live album from Ummagumma and there is precious little psychedelic rock in the remaining studio album. Combining elements of avant-garde, music concrète, folk, symphonic and pastoral rock that is loosely called called experimental rock, personally I don't think the avant-garde rock element dominates the music enough to call it an avant-garde rock album as such. Does that make it Prog? *another shrug* in as much as AHM and Meddle are.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:20
^Yes. I have to agree with you on that. I always used to say that the song was George Martin's finest score for a Beatles' song, until I discovered it was scored by someone else while Martin was working on the recording of another artist, for which he hardly forgave Macca, even up to now!

Edited by SteveG - July 09 2015 at 10:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:13
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I agree. It's a wonderful pastiche of a bygone era's great dance hall songs. But perhaps it's a bit too saccharine for my taste.
It's when you compare it to an actual music hall rendition of the song (for example the pedestrian version by Kenny Ball and his Jazzmen) that the Sgt Pepper version reveals itself to be more than a pastiche. Unlike some of their other genre jumping songs that were rendered pastiche to the point of parody by the fab four, When I'm Sixty-four turns out to be a cleverer piece of music arrangement than any music hall song. But yeah, saccharine it most definitely is (and that's not uncommon in Macca songs IMO).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:30
^I agree. It's a wonderful pastiche of a bygone era's great dance hall songs. But perhaps it's a bit too saccharine for my taste.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:27
^ But it was also a weird and wonderful homage to that kind of song; both a trippy imitation and funny lambasting which was very much a part of the Psych approach (Doors, Janis, Floyd occasionally) .  I think McCartney described trying to imitate Sinatra.





Edited by Atavachron - July 08 2015 at 18:28
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:23
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I always considered When I'm Sixty Four as the Beatles anti-psychedelic song. Or, as Greg would say 'granny music'.
*shrug* ... the London psychedelic scene was Georgian nostalgia in lurid colours and When I'm Sixty-four is merely a further reflection of that. It ain't a psychedelic pop song by any stretch of the imagination, but it isn't anti-psychedelic because it was still a creation of the psychedelic era. Of course the lyric is a contradiction of the music, and suspect that is deliberate.

It also features tu-bu-lar-bells... dong-da-da-dong dong dong dong da-da-dong. Clown
Agreed. The lyrical contradiction can either be viewed as cleaver or cloying. I'll go for the later.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:00
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

I thought a lot of people thought Piper was the first....
No, that is, was and always has been, considered to be psychedelic rock/pop album. Saucerful too, albeit with some proto-Prog moments. Floyd's first true Prog album would have been Ummagumma if it had been a single studio album.

I've always seen Ummagumma as a psychedelic/avant-garde rock album first and foremost. Wouldn't Meddle be their first true prog album?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 17:36
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Squabbling over who was the first will never yield an answer because there wasn’t one single identifiable first
Yes but it's fun and sometimes even interesting.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 17:09
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I always considered When I'm Sixty Four as the Beatles anti-psychedelic song. Or, as Greg would say 'granny music'.
*shrug* ... the London psychedelic scene was Georgian nostalgia in lurid colours and When I'm Sixty-four is merely a further reflection of that. It ain't a psychedelic pop song by any stretch of the imagination, but it isn't anti-psychedelic because it was still a creation of the psychedelic era. Of course the lyric is a contradiction of the music, and suspect that is deliberate.

It also features tu-bu-lar-bells... dong-da-da-dong dong dong dong da-da-dong. Clown
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:58
^Gothcha! it's all good!
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