Did the Beatles really Invent Prog? Or not? |
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Friday13th
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 30 2013 Status: Offline Points: 284 |
Posted: July 09 2015 at 11:31 | ||
I love The Left Banke! "Pretty Ballerina" is one of my all time favorite songs. I don't say SFF is baroque pop as a derogatory term. If there were a "Baroque Pop Archives" I would be an equally proud and opinionated member I also understand why you say SFF took that kind of music to the next level since I agree. I just don't agree that that is where you draw the line for where psychedelic rock/baroque pop ends and symphonic prog begins. To me it's still the former though admittedly at one of its most sophisticated peaks. "A Day in a Life" I think is more clearly distinct from a psychedelic rock/baroque pop tag. It's really just a difference in boundaries. My boundaries for what constitutes as prog are smaller than yours, whereas my boundaries for what counts as psychedelic rock/baroque pop are wider. All are awesome genres and it doesn't diminish their value. Fair enough? I've also never heard an actual prog artist specifically single out "Strawberry Fields Forever" as the most influential on prog. Robert Fripp on the other hand HAS specifically mentioned "A Day in the Life" as the big moment. Sgt. Pepper's is usually mentioned by most prog artists, and I can only assume it's due to that epic final track.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20525 |
Posted: July 09 2015 at 10:32 | ||
Edited by SteveG - July 09 2015 at 11:00 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20525 |
Posted: July 09 2015 at 10:28 | ||
Edited by SteveG - July 09 2015 at 11:11 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20525 |
Posted: July 09 2015 at 10:19 | ||
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 12783 |
Posted: July 09 2015 at 04:57 | ||
In my defense, the term "granny music" in relation to McCartney's forays into trite dance hall music was coined by John Lennon. Obviously, he couldn't stand it either.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: July 09 2015 at 01:38 | ||
Who said Can't Buy Me Love is prog? Well it's about as prog as That's all or Owner of a lonely heart. Surely there's no need to have to bring up the fact that their career splits in two halves from Rubber Soul onwards, with Help as the bridge. That is while prog rock bands dumbed down to get pop hits, Beatles got sick of writing bland pop and got more ambitious. Radiohead have also followed a similar path.
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: July 09 2015 at 00:35 | ||
Edited by Svetonio - July 09 2015 at 00:53 |
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: July 09 2015 at 00:26 | ||
Regarding Psychedelic and Baroque pop the tags, both tags are not quite suitable for Strawberry Fields Forever. Tomorow Never Knows is the great psych, and we could even describe that one as 'progressive psychedelia' aswell, but it's a 'psychedelic experience', not that haunting, pastoral and moony atmosphere of Strawbery Fields Forever. The Beatles' songs like Yesterday and (or) Eleanor Rigby, simply due to that usage of the strings, were called Baroque pop. By the other bands, as an example of Baroque pop, I'd like to mention Walk Away Renee (1966) by NYC band The Left Banke. So everybody can hear that Baroque pop have nothing to do with Strawberry Fields Forever, i.e. SFF is not something derived from Baroque pop. In lack of the term 'Symphonic rock' that will be coined some years later, Strawberry Fields Forever used to be and still to be wrongly tagged as a "Psych" and "Baroque pop", although both tags never ever work well for Strawberry Fields Forever because Strawberry Fields Forever already was something else, a new subgenre; The Beatles were move ahead. And that's it. Just born English Symphonic rock.
Edited by Svetonio - July 09 2015 at 10:04 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:46 | ||
^ your boundaries for psychedelia are broader than mine.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20525 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:34 | ||
^Well, the basis of these albums is psychedelia. Anything avant-garde would be a bonus, as would anything that's found to be prog. Agree?
Edited by SteveG - July 08 2015 at 19:34 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:27 | ||
*shrug* ...or Atom Heart Mother. I'm not that fussed either way, it's not Piper (or Saucerful), or Ummagumma that's all. Though that said, take away the psych/space rock live album from Ummagumma and there is precious little psychedelic rock in the remaining studio album. Combining elements of avant-garde, music concrète, folk, symphonic and pastoral rock that is loosely called called experimental rock, personally I don't think the avant-garde rock element dominates the music enough to call it an avant-garde rock album as such. Does that make it Prog? *another shrug* in as much as AHM and Meddle are.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20525 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:20 | ||
^Yes. I have to agree with you on that. I always used to say that the song was George Martin's finest score for a Beatles' song, until I discovered it was scored by someone else while Martin was working on the recording of another artist, for which he hardly forgave Macca, even up to now!
Edited by SteveG - July 09 2015 at 10:21 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:13 | ||
It's when you compare it to an actual music hall rendition of the song (for example the pedestrian version by Kenny Ball and his Jazzmen) that the Sgt Pepper version reveals itself to be more than a pastiche. Unlike some of their other genre jumping songs that were rendered pastiche to the point of parody by the fab four, When I'm Sixty-four turns out to be a cleverer piece of music arrangement than any music hall song. But yeah, saccharine it most definitely is (and that's not uncommon in Macca songs IMO).
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20525 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:30 | ||
^I agree. It's a wonderful pastiche of a bygone era's great dance hall songs. But perhaps it's a bit too saccharine for my taste.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 64598 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:27 | ||
^ But it was also a weird and wonderful homage to that kind of song; both a trippy imitation and funny lambasting which was very much a part of the Psych approach (Doors, Janis, Floyd occasionally) . I think McCartney described trying to imitate Sinatra.
Edited by Atavachron - July 08 2015 at 18:28 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20525 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:23 | ||
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Pastmaster
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 23 2015 Location: Spiderwood Farm Status: Offline Points: 1774 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:00 | ||
I've always seen Ummagumma as a psychedelic/avant-garde rock album first and foremost. Wouldn't Meddle be their first true prog album?
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 64598 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 17:36 | ||
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 17:09 | ||
*shrug* ... the London psychedelic scene was Georgian nostalgia in lurid colours and When I'm Sixty-four is merely a further reflection of that. It ain't a psychedelic pop song by any stretch of the imagination, but it isn't anti-psychedelic because it was still a creation of the psychedelic era. Of course the lyric is a contradiction of the music, and suspect that is deliberate. It also features tu-bu-lar-bells... dong-da-da-dong dong dong dong da-da-dong.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20525 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:58 | ||
^Gothcha! it's all good!
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